Dispinsationalist vs. Preterist

[Grasshopper]

Pullleeeese! A little respect! It's REALLY hard to make this stuff up!!! Where should I start? At "quickening?" At "sanctification?" What exactly don't you understand?

Once again, I ask for scripture for your definition and receive none.

Gh --- the new covenant was given spiritually because it wasn't accepted by its "target audience," Israel. NO. This is NOT Jer 31! Israel did NOT accept it nor receive it!

If there are any dispies reading this, is this what you believe as well?

Yes, absolutely! But the first was NOT acceptable to its "target audience."

What do you mean 1st? There was no promise of a 1st and 2nd or 3rd New Covenant.

Did you notice "house of Israel/house of Judah?" That is NOT "house of the church!" Go back and look at what I said "house of David" meant.

How about we see what inspired NT writers say the house of David meant:

Act 15:14 Even as Simon has declared how God at the first visited the nations to take out of them a people for His name.
Act 15:15 And the words of the Prophets agree to this; as it is written,
Act 15:16 "After this I will return and will build again the tabernacle of David which has fallen down; and I will build again its ruins, and I will set it up,
Act 15:17 so those men who are left might seek after the Lord, and all the nations on whom My name has been called, says the Lord, who does all these things."

The context which James quotes this verse is the adding of Gentiles to the Church. James settles the argument by using these OT passages concerning the tabernacle of David to say this is what it meant.

Quote:
Where was Jewish acceptance ever a prerequisite to establishing the Kingdom???? You'll have to do better than "it appears that".

Deut 30, right? You said YOU reviewed this for me -- what did you see?

No prerequisite for establishing the Kingdom. God never said if you Pharisees believe in me then I will establish my Kingdom.

It gets to the very heart of what God knows and what His Son knows. Jesus, at His first advent, read the word just like you and me. He knew His time had come! He offered the kingdom just as prophecy in Daniel 9:24 said He would in the "69th week."

Where does it say such a thing? Especially your view of a physical 1000 year Kingdom.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people and as to your holy city, to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make atonement for iniquity and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

What do YOU make of 9:25? "Cut off but not for Himself?"

You mean verse 26. It means He was crucified.

Incoherent on account of your naivete'. Look -- it is a "new heavens and new earth" to Isaiah because HE was expecting it for all the OT saints.

I give up on trying to get a coherent view from you on the New H&E of Is. Peter and Rev.

Read Isa 26:19-21. When he would walk out of his grave, that would be the new earth to him.

Isa 26:19 Your dead ones shall live, together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust; for your dew is as the dew of lights, and the earth shall cast out the dead.


You’re right, and when did this occur? Read the NT:

Eph 5:14 Therefore he says, "Awake, sleeping ones! And arise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light."

It is a spiritual awakening.

unless he understood Isa 57:1 in which he "saw" the rapture.

:laugh: :laugh:

Do you see God calling Israel "sons of the sorceress?" That's Israel bowing down to A/C!

:laugh: :laugh:

Quote:
To clarify. Your view seems to be: Peter is saying the New H&E of Isaiah must be destroyed so that the New H&E of Revelation can be ushered in. Correct?

Si!

So scripture teaches 2 separate New Heavens and Earth? Again, all dispies reading this do you agree????

 

[Grasshopper]

Quote:
Josh21:43 And Jehovah gave to Israel all the land which He swore to give to their fathers. And they possessed it, and lived in it.

That's a good verse -- good analysis. Was Abraham there? Isaac? Jacob? Was it "forever?" Are you satisfied with partial fulfillment (I guess I needn't have asked that question, right?

I guess I’ll answer the same question again:

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out into a place which he was afterward going to receive for an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he went.
Heb 11:9 By faith he lived in the land of promise as a stranger, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs of the same promise with him.

Also you might want to do a word study for the word “forever” as used in the OT.

Because the physical land was NEVER meant to be the ultimate fulfillment or reward.
Ah ha! now it is me that requests proof! WHERE do you get this presumption from?

I guess I’ll answer this question again as well:

Heb 11:13 These all died by way of faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off. And they were persuaded of them and embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

If you wish to believe Gentiles receive heaven as our reward and Jews receive a plot of land then more power to you.

Gh, have I not rendered sufficient obiesence to the truth you stated? OK, I "flip-flopped" in the face of truth. Is there any other penance I can offer that will make you see that you were right and I was conceding your point? Is there anything else I can offer to show you that in spite of your "lucky shot" your thesis is still wrong?

You built much of your MK theology on memorial sacrifices of Eze.40-48 when you were shown you were wrong you continued to insist otherwise. Finally after hearing another preterist show the same error you flip-flopped. Now you go on as if that was just a minor insignificant point. Not only that but then you give me this arrogant statement:

“Can't you think about it before you try to spiritualize or literalize the text inappropriately for me to correct for you?”

So perhaps you could not lecture me on my need for correction until I actually flip flop on a major pillar of my eschatology.

Good example! "I will put My spirit in YOU..." What YOU is God talking about? THE VERY PEOPLE EZEKIEL WAS ADDRESSING! How? By resurrecting them into Messiah's kingdom!! "FROM THEIR GRAVES" He says!! Are you starting to get the "texture and feel" of prophecy, gh??

Hey, if you want to have a discussion on “audience relevance” I’m all for it. Perhaps we can start with I Thessalonians 4.

Paul blamed all sinners, including himself, for Jesus death.

1Th 2:14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also have suffered these things by your own countrymen, even as they also by the Jews;
1Th 2:15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, also driving us out and they do not please God and being contrary to all men,

Seems if the modern Israel is the same Israel of the Old and New Testaments this would still apply. Funny, I always hear John Hagee and such telling us all the good things that apply to modern Israel but never things like this. Wonder why? These are still applicable if dispies are right:

Rev 2:9 I know your works and tribulation and poverty (but you are rich), and I know the blasphemy of those saying themselves to be Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Rev 3:9 Behold, I give out of those of the synagogue of Satan, those saying themselves to be Jews and are not, but lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.

Talk about anti-Semetic.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Dispy: //What do YOU make of 9:25? "Cut off but not for Himself?"//

Grasshopper: //You mean verse 26. It means He was crucified.//

Amen, Brother Grasshopper. Messiah the Prince was crucified after the 7 Weeks, after the 62 weeks, that is after 69 of the 70 weeks were transpired.

Dan 9:25-26 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Knowe therefore and vnderstande, that from the going foorth of the commandement to bring againe the people, and to builde Ierusalem, vnto Messiah the prince, shall be seuen weekes and threescore and two weekes, and the streete shalbe built againe, and the wall euen in a troublous time.
26 And after threescore and two weekes, shall Messiah be slaine, and shall haue nothing,, and the people of the prince that shall come, shall destroy the citie and the Sanctuarie, and the end thereof shalbe with a flood: and vnto the end of the battell it shalbe destroyed by desolations.
27 And he shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

// ... the people of the prince that shall come, shall destroy the citie and the Sanctuarie ... //

To whom does the first 'he' in Dan 25-27 refer? The prince above who destroys Jerusalem and the Temple therein? IMHO: NO WAY! the prince who destroys is NOT the same as Messiah the Prince. So the only difference here between the a-mill preterist and the pre-mill futurist positions is the resolution of HE in Daniel 9:27. What about the second 'he' in Daniel 9:27? Does it refer to the Christ or the Antichrist? -- you better get it right; better be worshiping the Christ and not the Antichraist. Does the Christ commit the Abomination of Desolation (AoD) or does the Antichrsit commit the AoD? Answer: the False Messiah; not the real Messiah. The Real Messiah is Yeshusa (Hebrew) or Iesus (KJV1611 Edition) or Jesus in the MVs.

Needless to say there are enough messy understandings of 'and' (or '&') to allow some to believe a-mill preterist OR pre-mill futurist. And some people don't know the first thing about 'last' nor the last thing about 'first' -- that allows for other understandings of scripture like post-tribualtion only rapture, followed by a literal second coming but a spiritual Millennial Reign of Christ (a-mill) after the end of the world. The world will fall apart when the Lord touches down on the earth - this will happen either in 70AD (preterist) or our future (futurist). If a person could figure out what Ephesians means, then Revelation would a snap


So I think Skypair is way closer to what the Bible says.

 

[skypair]

Once again, I ask for scripture for your definition and receive none.

So narrow down your focus. I can't answer a question I don't understand.

What do you mean 1st? There was no promise of a 1st and 2nd or 3rd New Covenant.

Those who should have received it first rejected it, Mt 20:16. Again, these are basic but foundational truths. You're not just feigning ignorance of them, are you?

How about we see what inspired NT writers say the house of David meant:

Act 15:14 Even as Simon has declared how God at the first visited the nations to take out of them a people for His name.
Act 15:15 And the words of the Prophets agree to this; as it is written,
Act 15:16 "After this I will return and will build again the tabernacle of David which has fallen down; and I will build again its ruins, and I will set it up,
Act 15:17 so those men who are left might seek after the Lord, and all the nations on whom My name has been called, says the Lord, who does all these things."

The context which James quotes this verse is the adding of Gentiles to the Church. James settles the argument by using these OT passages concerning the tabernacle of David to say this is what it meant.

First let me point out that you are referencing the "TABERNACLE of David," not the "house of David." The TABERNACLE of David" would be the place of religious worship in the OT manner as we see in Ezek 40-48.

Second, Acts 15:16 is a quote from Amos 9:11 and the context there clearly refers to the literal MK when "the plowman will overcome the reaper" etc. (9:12-18).

Thirdly, "those men who are left" refers post-Armageddon to the MK, Zech 14:16. Again ABSOLUTELY NO RESEMBLANCE to post-70 AD.

No prerequisite for establishing the Kingdom. God never said if you Pharisees believe in me then I will establish my Kingdom.

Again, in your eminent, godly wisdom there's no such prerequisite, right? And we see how far your "eminent wisdom" has gotten you. :laugh:

Where does it say such a thing? Especially your view of a physical 1000 year Kingdom.

Rev 20:4-8. Here's an exercise for you -- interpret these words:

1) Where does Rev 20:4-9 take place?

2) What does "live" mean in these verses? "...and I saw the souls of them ... and they lived and reigned with Christ 1000 years ... but the rest of the dead lived not again until the 1000 years was finished;... and I saw the dead small and great stand before God ... and [they] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

I give up on trying to get a coherent view from you on the New H&E of Is. Peter and Rev.

If you just want to get it straight, there is an OT New H&E and a NT New H&E. Why? Because this H&E must pass away before "one jot or tittle will in no wise pass from the law." (Mt 5:18) But before it passes away, all must be fulfilled -- including the reign of Messiah, David's Son, and the receiving of the new covenant and the promises by Israel and particularly by the OT saints. Look at Job, Job 19:25. He expects to stand on the earth again with his Redeemer. Isaiah, whom yyou cite in Isa 26:19-21 -- same thing after the great tribulation, 26:20-21.

You’re right, and when did this occur? Read the NT:

Eph 5:14 Therefore he says, "Awake, sleeping ones! And arise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light."

It is a spiritual awakening.

For you, that would be true. For those whom Isaiah called into their "bedchambers" --- No.

Several times Paul exhorts believers to live the "resurrection life" that, indeed, the OT saints will when they are raised from their graves. 1Cor 15:34 is another one. And the 'resurrection life' is lived in a PHYSICAL body that is quickened by the Spirit. In fact, Paul says he 'dies daily' (15:31) in order to hopefully 'know the power of His resurrection' and 'attain to the resurrection of the dead,' Phil 3:10-11. That is, to attain bodily to the resemblance of an OT saint living in the MK.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Heb 11:9 By faith he lived in the land of promise as a stranger, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs of the same promise with him.

"As a stranger," gh. And there is not even a claim that he possessed ALL the land which could likely only be done by him AND his descendants, right?

{quote]Also you might want to do a word study for the word “forever” as used in the OT.[/quote] I know where you are coming from and like EVERY word, the meaning hinges largely on CONTEXT.

...and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. [/quoet] "strangers" and "pilgrims" don't "possess" land -- they pass through it

If you wish to believe Gentiles receive heaven as our reward and Jews receive a plot of land then more power to you.

Yes, I do have more power, thank you very much. The CHURCH are a HEAVENLY people with HEAVENLY promises. Israel are an EARTHLY people with EARTHLY promises. Thank you for noticing that. That would also explain why we received a spiritual kingdom but they look for and will receive an earthly one, the MK of Messiah.

[/FONT][/COLOR]
You built much of your MK theology on memorial sacrifices of Eze.40-48 when you were shown you were wrong you continued to insist otherwise. Finally after hearing another preterist show the same error you flip-flopped. Now you go on as if that was just a minor insignificant point.

First off, if something is wrong, it is wrong and I'll admit it. But if you think "every jot and tittle" of the law promises has been fulfilled and that the heavens and earth have passed away, then you are teaching something that, just looking our your window, you KNOW is false.

skypair

 

[lbaker]

Y'all can add me to the Preterist list. I'm a Partial Preterist anyway.

 

[Grasshopper]

skypair,

It's been fun. Once a thread hits 4 or 5 pages usually everything has been said on both sides and we just get frustrated going around in circles. So I'll bow out at this time but I'm sure we'll lock horns again on this subject soon. For you and those who might still be reading this here are some things you might find helpful:

Here is a site that has an excellent series on the Throne of David along with other excellent teaching on his audio sermon page:
http://www.sovereigngracebible.org/


Here are a couple of atricles on the New Covenant and the New Heavens and New Earth.

http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=85&Itemid=61

http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=185&Itemid=61

 

[Rippon]

Pullleeeese! A little respect! It's REALLY hard to make this stuff up.



No need to act so condescending with your brothers,


WHERE do you get this presumption from?

skypair

Classic lines from the inimitable Skypair.He's clueless that these lines apply perfectly to himself.

 

[skypair]

Grasshopper,

Well, at least from those articles I see how your logic works. If you think a prophecy or covenant has been fulfilled already, you just assume that the literal events that were to accompany it have been fulfilled as well. And that misrepresentation of the scripture worked pretty well while Israel was swallowed up by the nations.

But like most lies, preterism's usefulness is in days gone by. Israel's reappearance is only the beginning of God's proof that Israel didn't merge into the church by being either replaced or included (I am surprised that you, unlike other preterists I have known, did not try to tell me what tribe of Israel you hale from! :laugh: ).

Well, I agree with your last post. We do seem to live in different worlds that have no connection the one with the other. If "heaven and earth" have "passed," I must have missed 2Pet 3:10 and I can't even fathom what world -- I suppose it would have to be the eternal kingdom of Rev 21-22 -- that you think YOU are living in.

skypair

 

[Ed Edwards]

Preterist ... "that you think YOU are living in?"

the second comeing was spiritual - AD 35
the millinnial kingdom of the Messiah was spiritual AD 36-1036
the release of Satan was spiritual AD 1037
The great white throne judgment of all men (spiritual) was AD 1038.

We are in eternal heaven or eternal hell. I watched the TV news last night; I read this morning's newspaper: "that you think YOU are living in?" -- eternal hell.

 

[Ed Edwards]

He (or she) who posts last

WINS :thumbs:
​

 

[Amy.G]

I win! :laugh:

 

[Ed Edwards]

Works for me :thumbs: :thumbs: :thumbs: