Disrespect to baby Jesus?

Gina B · Nov 25, 2011

Mexdeaf said:
I'm curious though... how do you teach children about Jesus without using any pictures?? I work with the Deaf and I would have an extremely hard time teaching without using any pictures since the Deaf learn primarily visually.

I used to teach young children Sunday school. There never was a problem and I never used pictures.

There are exceptions to almost everything. Since I'm not familiar with the Deaf community, I can't have an opinion on whether an exception should be made. Well, I can, but it would be based on ignorance and no opinion given in ignorance would have any merit.

Amy, you asked about crosses worn as jewelry. I have no problem with them, provided they do not bear an image of Christ, as seems popular among many Catholics and I occasionally see a Baptist wearing that...a cross with an image of Christ still nailed to it. Christ is Christ. A cross is wood. There's nothing sacred about wood. There's really nothing sacred apart from the Trinity, so that's the only thing there seems to be an issue with as far as attempts at making likenesses of. (yeah, I end sentences with prepositions. Fear me! haha )

annsni · Nov 25, 2011

ituttut said:
Before the 1900's, Baptists did not observe Xmas, along with some others, in their churches; much less take unto themselves any thing that smacked of Idol Worship.

Well, I'd disagree with you after being at our other campus that is in a Baptist church from 1852 - before Lincoln was president!! The diary that was kept spoke of Christmas services, festivities and decorating so I'd say at least here on Long Island, Baptist churches DID observe Christmas.

The Old Testament tells us the heathen would cut down trees; decorate them so they could worship their god/gods on the appropriate date/s. Sound familiar?

Nope - because the trees would be carved - nothing like a Christmas tree at all.

Zenas · Nov 25, 2011

Mexdeaf said:
Please read carefully- I did not go on someone else's property and destroy crucifixes- and certainly not without their permission.

That is as plain as I can put it without having to reiterate all of the circumstances, which are NOYB anyway.

That statement raises as many questions as it answers, so let me suggest some things you might have said without my saying a word about it:

Possibility No. 1: "I used to be Catholic but then I was saved so I gathered up all my crucifixes and destroyed them without remorse."

Possibility No. 2: "I was pastoring a church in Latin America which was made up of former Catholics. One day they all brought their old crucifixes to church and left them in a basket. I took the basket and burned it without remorse."

Possibility No. 3: "I was visiting in the home of a member who was a former Catholic. The member gave me his crucifixes and said, "I don't need these any more. I destroyed them without remorse."

I don't know if any of these are close at all, but they would have been the act of a good Baptist pastor. What you said, however, and the discussion where you interjected it made it sound like you were officiously damaging the property of another and that you were proud of doing it.

You just won't quit, will you? Your assumptions are wrong. So wrong in fact, that if I were to publish the truth, you would be red-faced with shame. And you should be ashamed for jumping to conclusions and accusing me of doing something criminal which I have not done.

So maybe you could publish the truth and disabuse us of any doubts about your behavior.

I do agree with one thing you said. It's none of my business, so I won't say any more about it.

Mexdeaf · Nov 25, 2011

Zenas said:
I do agree with one thing you said. It's none of my business, so I won't say any more about it.

And that's where I will leave it. :thumbs:

Zenas · Nov 25, 2011

There is no difference between having images of Mary and Joseph in a crèche at Christmas and having them in your church year round. In 21st Century America we cannot honestly say that anyone worships images. Churches have them there to honor the memory of the person depicted or to commemorate an event. Protestants do it during Christmas season and Catholics do it year round. That is the only difference. Indeed we see the same thing outside of churches. Our national capitol is full of images of prominent persons in our nation’s history, and no one bows down and worships them.

The situation might be different in primitive cultures. I have no firsthand knowledge but I’m told that images of Our Lady of Guadalupe are worshiped in parts of Mexico and Latin America. If that is the case, then they should get rid of her image both at Christmas and throughout the year. But that is not the case in the United States today.

ituttut · Dec 1, 2011

annsni said:
Well, I'd disagree with you after being at our other campus that is in a Baptist church from 1852 - before Lincoln was president!! The diary that was kept spoke of Christmas services, festivities and decorating so I'd say at least here on Long Island, Baptist churches DID observe Christmas.

You have documentation of that fact that in 1852 when the church was founded they observed Christmas, but that surely wasn't the norm for that day. The following is a quote from The New York Daily Times edition dated December 26,1885, "The churches of the Presbyterians, Baptists, and Methodists were not open on December 25 except where some mission schools had a celebration. They do not accept the day as a holy one, but the Episcopalian Catholic, and German churches were all open. Inside they were decked with evergreens."

I know as late as 1936 the Baptist church I attended still had questions about having a Holy Day that can nowhere be found in scripture. However by scripture we do know where the tree came from, and it most certainly didn't have anything to do with worshiping God. Jeremiah 10:8 says the worship of trees is brutish, and just vanity. Can it be Christmas shows the carnal side of Christian worship?

Nope - because the trees would be carved - nothing like a Christmas tree at all.

Scripture please

Zenas · Dec 1, 2011

ituttut said:
However by scripture we do know where the tree came from, and it most certainly didn't have anything to do with worshiping God. Jeremiah 10:8 says the worship of trees is brutish, and just vanity. Can it be Christmas shows the carnal side of Christian worship?

Do you think we worship Christmas trees?

ituttut · Dec 2, 2011

Zenas said:
Do you think we worship Christmas trees?

What is the purpose of a tree at Christmas, and why is there a tree in a church? Where did this idea come from?

annsni · Dec 2, 2011

ituttut said:
What is the purpose of a tree at Christmas, and why is there a tree in a church? Where did this idea come from?

It looks pretty!! We have one in our front lobby that can be seen from the street and then we have trees in the sanctuary up on the wall where there is a shelf on either side of the sanctuary. We have three different trees with just white lights on them along with metal angels with trumpets and then a big swag across it. It looks really nice. Here are the pics:

The sanctuary:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e110/annsni/church/IMG_0829.jpg

Here's the tree in the front lobby. This was last year's decorating day where all the staff comes out to decorate. When we're done, we go into the lobby with this tree and hang the handmade ornaments on it and then we sing carols. We did it yesterday for this year.

You can see one man signing (he's deaf), and you can see the screen that we will use because the stage is set up for the play so we close the curtains on Sunday.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e110/annsni/church/IMG_0822.jpg

Jerome · Dec 2, 2011

The Catholics bake Baby Jesuses in the oven in their "king cakes"?

And bury Josephs in the dirt!

Zenas · Dec 2, 2011

Jerome said:
The Catholics bake Baby Jesuses in the oven in their "king cakes"?

And bury Josephs in the dirt!

I never heard of “king cakes” but I don’t think they countenance burying Josephs in the dirt. This is from the Q&A section of the catholic.com forum on Nov. 7, 2011:

I recently bought some St. Joseph statues at a Catholic religious store to maybe to try it out? But is it sacrilegious to bury St. Joseph upside down in the ground?

To which the official reply was:

Dear friend,

It is superstition to put a statue upside-down in the ground. If you want God's help in selling or buying a house, just ask Him for it!

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

Zenas · Dec 2, 2011

ituttut said:
What is the purpose of a tree at Christmas

Like Annsni said, they're pretty. What is the purpose of having flowers on the communion table on Sunday morning?

and why is there a tree in a church?

Because they're pretty and appropriate for the season. Do you really think a Christmas tree conjures up images or thoughts of false gods? Do you know anyone who prays to a Christmas tree?

Where did this idea come from?

I don't know exactly where it came from, other than that it originated hundreds of years ago in northern Europe. Whether it has pagan or Christian origins doesn't matter. The Christmas tree today is thoroughly a part of a Christian tradition.

ituttut · Dec 7, 2011

abcgrad94 said:
Thank you for the explanation. Okay, so hundreds of years ago some pagans worshiped a pagan god and used decorated trees. That was THEIR worship, not mine. I really don't believe that anybody does that anymore. Over time, the Christmas tree has taken on a new meaning, that is the celebration of the gift of God's son, sent to us. Maybe the roots had a bad connotation, but nowadays it means something different.

Getting back to this thread, I missed your post, and apologize for the over sight abcgrad. An eyesight problem causes this to happen if I am not extra careful.

I can see your point, and understand it, the fact however is did God see this practice of worshipping a god, which I would take to mean HIM also, to be of vanity, and brutish mentality? Our Lord left us with specific instructions of how we are to remember Him. So who is it that we believe?

If we believe what Jesus said to His Apostles, and then revealed to Paul, you tell the Gentiles to do the same thing, for this is what I wish you would do. I would say He means No more, as anything could (and has) led Christianity back into HOLY DAYS, with rituals, just like the heathens, and the absolute need to have a Xmas Tree for us to look at, and say, Oh! Just look at this beautiful tree we present to you, and all the presents we bring to each other. Do any of us really believe God gives us His blessings by giving to each other that in most cases don't need the gifts? Then if we have anything left, we perhaps may give something to a Love offering. It looks to me we should ask is this accordant with His wishes.

Some day we will know if we obeyed Him. Am I guilty also? You bet! But more study into the matter of w WHAT He says, and wants us to do, changed me in this matter. I also know works has nothing to do with trying to keep me saved. Our worship is to be spiritual, and our conversation is with Him in Heaven. Our works are to be daily, and each should be Holy in Him.

Even the angels came to earth and rejoiced at Christ's birth! They celebrated and sang for joy that a savior was born to mankind. Should we do less? In celebrating his birth, death, and resurrection, we worship him and remember the awesome gift of salvation. For me, a nativity scene is a reminder of this, not an idol. I don't worship the nativity scene, I see it and am reminded to worship God. Same thing whenever I see a group of crosses while driving down the road. I don't worship the cross, I worship the One who died on the cross.

It looks as if you believe as I; The Word of God was made flesh while the Shepard's tended their sheep by night in the hills. There is truth in the Bible, and I believe what I read in the scriptures. Evidently I must be wrong, for I thought Shepard's would have their flock's inside in winter, and feed them of the feed that is in the manger. Can you please give more light on this matter? Did the Shepard's feed the sheep in the Manger that was now empty, and take the sheep into the hills. This really doesn't make sense to me, for I thought Shepard's took their flocks outside while the grass was growing to feed them. Can anyone help me to understand why the Shepard's were outside in the winter, trying to feed the flock with dried grass, when they should be inside feeding at the trough?

I think for some, like my friend, this is "wrong" because the Roman Catholic church did it. I guess my response to that would be, the Catholic church has given money to feed people, to start missions to aid the sick and helpless, and they have housed orphan children. Should I as a Christian not do any of those things just because the Catholics did?

Can't speak for your friend in these matters, but can tell you that Good Works were done long be Catholichood came into existence. As to the good works of the Catholic's, I believe we all know they do good works, and I say BRAVO, for they do these the year round, as do all Christians, and yes some more than others. Much of good works by individual Christians could add up to more than the Catholic Church, as a church. I believe we will be judged, not doing a work for the sake of work, but work out of Love. In this regard I believe the Catholic church to be of Peter, and then of James who tells us very pointedly man must first do a Work to show their faith.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why nobody notices to whom James preaches to. James was not chosen to present his gospel to a Gentile, and he never did, unless they came into the camp as a proselyte to the Jewish faith. Scriptures show us the Gospel the Jew was to present to the Jew, and we see it vividly in James 2:21-22. " Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22. Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" That is not the Gospel I believe. I believe the works of Jesus made perfect the Faith I come through. My faith is in my Lord Jesus Christ ALONE, and I sure don't expect my Own Works to get me into His Body.

I believe there are some who will be in the kingdom gospel that was at hand, and others who believe only in the perfect works of Jesus Christ, and will be caught up to Him in the air, before the Saints go marching into that Promised Kingdom for them, and their proselytes.

ituttut · Dec 7, 2011

annsni said:
It looks pretty!! We have one in our front lobby that can be seen from the street and then we have trees in the sanctuary up on the wall where there is a shelf on either side of the sanctuary. We have three different trees with just white lights on them along with metal angels with trumpets and then a big swag across it. It looks really nice. Here are the pics:

The sanctuary:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e110/annsni/church/IMG_0829.jpg

Here's the tree in the front lobby. This was last year's decorating day where all the staff comes out to decorate. When we're done, we go into the lobby with this tree and hang the handmade ornaments on it and then we sing carols. We did it yesterday for this year. You can see one man signing (he's deaf), and you can see the screen that we will use because the stage is set up for the play so we close the curtains on Sunday.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e110/annsni/church/IMG_0822.jpg

Agree the pictures are pretty. But where in the Bible does it say to bring a tree into a church in order for the members to worship God. Who does the Tree represent?

As the Tree is there, surely one of the Christmas Carol's must be …

O Christmas, tree, O Christmas tree!

How are thy leaves so verdant!
O Christmas tree, O Christmas tree,
How are thy leaves so verdant!

Not only in the summertime,

But even in winter is thy prime.