Distortion of Scripture

[bmerr]

Eric B,

Originally by EricB:
Such an illustration betrays the COC's Pelagianism: man is basically good, but simply deceived by false churches!

bmerr here. Man, you are getting WAY more out of my illustration than I ever intended to put in it! It's just an illustration. It's not perfect.

As far as man's need to "be changed", as though from some outside force, I'd back away from that idea, personally. It ends up placing the responsibility for every lost soul at the feet of God, since He didn't step in and "change them". I don't think you'd take it that far, but that's where it ends up. It's pretty much Calvinism.

God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). God would not command something of man that he was incapable of doing, or that God alone is able to do for him. Man has always been given the choice to either submit to God's commands, or rebel against them.

Those with an "honest and good heart" (Luke 8:11) hear the word of God, and keep it, or obey it, the result being that they bring forth fruit with patience.

In closing, try not to read too much into my imperfect illustrations. You're not the first to do so. No harm done.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Charles Meadows]

Bmerr,

Well you are patient and thorough - I'll give you that!

Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved" (Acts 15:1).


But does the COC not in effect say, "Except ye be baptized and join the COC, ye cannot be saved"?

To me that is about the same as Judaizing, excpet it's using a Christian legalism instead of the Torah.

The point of Paul's "faith and not works..." is that God saves us based on His generosity and mercy, not by us fulfilling any requirements (of which baptism and church membership are these).

Paul never would have agreed that works mean nothing. Certainly the believer WILL manifest works. But that is not what saves him/her.

What about a man who is shipwrecked on an island. He finds a Bible in the ship's wreckage and decides to give his life to Christ. He dies of mosquito-borne meningioencephalitis a week later and never has a chance to show kindness to another human, or to be baptized by a minister. No works and no baptism and no church membership. Was he saved? If you answer "no" then you make salvation every bit as ritualistic as the Judaizers did - since this man asked sincerely with all his heart for Jesus to save him.

 

[D28guy]

bmerr,

You seem to be in the midst of the same confusion these dear Catholics are caught it. Here is some information that hopefully will help with your confusion...

Grace and Faith

To understand imputed righteousness is to understand grace and faith. Grace is the means by which everything necessary for man to receive forgiveness and eternal acceptance has been provided as a gift by God through the work of his Son. It is not a work achieved or merited by man in any way. It is accomplished by Christ alone. It is his righteousness, not man’s. Therefore from a biblical standpoint, grace alone means by Christ alone, received by faith alone and not by works. As Paul puts it:

"If it is by grace it is no longer on the basis of works otherwise grace is no longer grace" (Rom. 11:6).

"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law" (Rom. 3:28).

Repeatedly, scripture tells us that justification is not by works, either before or after a person has come into the experience of grace.

For example Titus 3:5 states: ‘He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy.’ Paul states that works are not the basis for our salvation, grace empowered or otherwise. Why is this so? Because Christ has done all the work necessary for justification:

"By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast" (Eph. 2:8–9).

Some Roman Catholic apologists point out that the verb form for justify is found in the aorist, present and future tenses in the New Testament. They maintain this proves that justification is not a completed work but an ongoing process which is dependent upon the human works of sanctification. However such assertions are laid to rest by Galatians 2:16 where all three verb tenses are found in relation to justification:

"Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified (present) by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified (aorist) by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified (future)."

Paul states emphatically that no man is ever justified by works, whether it be the past, present or future. He is writing to the Galatians who have already experienced the grace of God. He is warning these believers that justification is not a process based upon human works, even works in cooperation with grace, but solely upon faith in Christ at a point in time. Paul makes it clear in this same letter that if a gospel of justification by works is preached it will result in the corrupting and distorting of the true gospel of grace:

"I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for another gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed" (Gal. 1:6–9).

Works as a basis for justification must be repudiated and an exclusive trust in and reliance upon the person of Christ and his work of atonement alone for salvation must be exercised if one is to have saving faith. This is the Reformation truth of sola fide or faith alone. It is another way of stating the truth of Romans 3:28: ‘For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law.’

Hope this helps.

God bless,

Mike

Click Here

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Brother Charles Meadows -- Preach it!!

Frank (on another Topic):
Baptism is for the remittance of sin. Act 2:38" "

I think you mean FOR21 - in order to become

I think it means:
FOR28a - by reason of
FOR28b - because of

I was baptized (as a Baptist) because
my sins had been remittted.
I was NOT baptized so i could be saved;
i was baptized because i had already been
saved.

 

[bmerr]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
Bmerr,

Well you are patient and thorough - I'll give you that!

Charles,

bmerr here. Why thank you, sir. I apologize for being so long-winded at times, especially here lately. I'm having to take some pretty stout stuff for low back pain, and I may tend to ramble a bit. It's merely an effort to make myself clear. Success may vary though...

Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved" (Acts 15:1).


But does the COC not in effect say, "Except ye be baptized and join the COC, ye cannot be saved"?

To me that is about the same as Judaizing, excpet it's using a Christian legalism instead of the Torah.

No, I don't think so, although I think I see where you're coming from. Let me try and help you understand my point of view.

First, we must recognize the difference between circumcision and baptism. Simply put, circumcision originated with the Abrahamic covenant and continued into the Mosaic. It was a very Jewish thing.

You may recall that Paul refused to let Titus be compelled to be circumcised (Gal 2:3). Titus was a Gentile. For him, a Gentile, to submit to being circumcised as a way to be justified by the law, would have caused him to fall from grace (Gal 5:3,4).

But when Paul met up with Timothy (Acts 16:1-3), he "...took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek."

This confused me, quite honestly. Why would Paul have one be circumcised and not the other? Fortunately, I've been given quite a few books by some good friends, a few of which are comentaries. One of those is J.W. McGarvey's "Original Commentary on Acts". He's no more perfect than any other commentator, but his explanation seemed pretty good to me. I'll give a brief exerpt from his comments.

"The connection between the law and circumcision originated in the fact that the law [of Moses - me] was given to a part of the circumcised descendants of Abraham. We say a part of his descendants, because circumcision was enjoined upon his descendants through Ishmael, through the sons of Keturah, and through Esau, as well as upon the Jews. Since, then, the law did not originate the obligation to be circumcised, the abrogation of the law could not possibly annul that obligation."

He goes on to say lots more, but it boils down to this: Timothy was a descendant of Abraham, and as such was obligated to be circumcised. Titus was not from Abraham, and thus was not under obligation to be circumcised.

Probably more than you wanted to know, but I thought it was interesting.

The other issue was baptism. Whether we like it or not, the command to be baptized for the remission of sins is in the New Testament. We can go back and forth over "eis" and what it means, but at least let's acknowledge the command, and it's origin under the NT of Jesus Christ.

So circumcision is from the fathers (John 7:22), and baptism is of Christ. So, no, I don't see them the same way.

Second (second?!?!

), I would never ask anyone to "join the church of Christ". It's just not Scriptural. Let me explain - briefly!

In Acts 2:40-41, we read,

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Then in 2:47, we find,

"...And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

The ASV 1901 puts it like this,

"...And the Lord added to them day by day those that were saved."

I will allow those verses to stand without what has been termed, "church of Christ spin".

Third point - legalism. I know this title is reserved for those of us who believe that man has any part whatsoever to play in his salvation. Would this title be given to men like Noah, Abraham, or Moses? The Bible testifies of each of these men that they did all that the LORD commanded them, so did they.

Is obedience legalism? What would be the difference if it's not? I'd really like your opinion on this, Charles. I'd define obedience as doing what God says, in the way God says, for the purpose God says. But in doing so, I'd often be labeled as a "legalist".

The point of Paul's "faith and not works..." is that God saves us based on His generosity and mercy, not by us fulfilling any requirements (of which baptism and church membership are these).

Is faith not a requirement? Certainly one must believe, at least. Unbelievers (those who do not fulfill the requirement of faith) will be cast into the lake of fire. Jesus said to believe on Him was the "work of God" (John 6:28-29). It's something one must do, that is commanded by God.

That's partly how I came to the conclusion given earlier about what Paul meant by "works", that it would not rule out obedience.

Paul never would have agreed that works mean nothing. Certainly the believer WILL manifest works. But that is not what saves him/her.

That is not always the case. Do you recall the chief rulers in John 12:42-43? The text tells us that they believed on Jesus. They were convinced that He was Who He claimed to be.

But, "...they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue".

This is a case of faith, real intellectual acknowledgement of the facts of Jesus, that did not produce works. They met the requirement of belief, but these guys were not saved.

What about a man who is shipwrecked on an island........

Charles, please. Let's not go to "hypothetical world". I really didn't expect that from you. I'll forget about it if you will.

Again, I've gone longer than I intended. Thank you for your time spent reading and responding.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[ascund]

Greetings all

Originally posted by bmerr:
[QB] Jesus said to believe on Him was the "work of God" (John 6:28-29). It's something one must do, that is commanded by God.

The word justification is in the passive voice whenever it refers to human faith. Faith is not a measure of Christianity. Faith is not a work to be done. Faith is the instrument by which God imputes righteousness to the believer.

Justification is only in the active voice when it refers to God's activity. Failure to grasp this vital exegetical detail leads to big error.

Jesus gave an example of the faith that saves in John 3. When the murmuring Israelites were disciplined with poisonous snakes, they were told to [B}LOOK[/B] at the brazen serpent to be saved. No one had to get washed, cleansed, circumcised, or baptized. No one had to offer up sacrifices or offerings. No one had to say a sinner's prayer, confess Jesus, or repent. All they had to do was LOOK.

In this teaching Jesus makes two parallels. First, He equates the brazen serpent with Himself. Second, He equates a simple look to saving faith (John 3:15-16).

You make faith a work of sanctification. Faith is not a work or a measure. It is an instrument used by God.

One of the two greatest errors that a theologian can make is to confuse justification with sanctification.

Lloyd

 

[bmerr]

Lloyd,

bmerr here. I responded to the "justification/sanctification" thing on another thread, so I won't go into it here.

Something I think you're overlooking in the brasen serpent illustration is the fact that the people had to repent of their attitude toward God before the serpent was made available.

Once it was available, those bitten had to have faith that their healing was dependant upon their looking at the serpent. They then would have to make the required effort to get into a position to see the serpent.

Their looking to the serpent was a work of faith. They couldn't just sit in their tent, sick of snakebite, believing that if they could look upon the brasen serpent, they'd be healed. They had to do something, even if it was no more than to go to where they could look at it.

Their faith was manifested and made complete by their taking the appropriate action, and not before.

Jesus does not equate a simple look to saving faith. He equates being born again to being born of water and of the Spirit. The brasen serpent reference seems to be more an allusion to the manner of His death than anything else.

Faith may be an instrument used by God, but it is required of man to demonstrate his faith by corresponding works.

"And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46)

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally posted by bmerr:
Something I think you're overlooking in the brasen serpent illustration is the fact that the people had to repent of their attitude toward God before the serpent was made available.

Their looking to the serpent was a work of faith. They couldn't just sit in their tent, sick of snakebite, believing that if they could look upon the brasen serpent, they'd be healed. They had to do something, even if it was no more than to go to where they could look at it.

Well, yes, people have to make a decision to believe in Jesus. This is a wild stretch of the illustration. Turning one's head to look at the serpent is not a work in any wild theological sense. You have employed a wild definition of "work" as a substitute for "works commanded by God." It is confusion.

The equivalent of "turning one's head" can be done by a quadlepalegic in a hospital. The turning is of the heart to Jesus. This turning in no way requires water baptism, sacrifices, works or rites.

The John 3:15-16 verbs of believing are not to be seen as simply the continuous Greek Present tense. This is but lesson 3 in first year Greek. There is much more. Only someone who has never had the second semester of basic Greek would make that statement.

Second year Greek studens should be able to see the definite article plus participle as the customary marker for the Gnomic Present. This gives a timeless truth - not a continuous activity. Check it out in any second year text like Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics by Wallace.

Furthermore, the Hebrew tenses in Numbers 21 are the perfect tense showing that the action is done at the moment one looks. Salvation is a one shot deal - that lasts for ever. You can get to this using the Blue Letter Bible Project http://www.blueletterbible.org . Try it! Check on the verse, then the "C" button and get to the Hebrew word tied to Strong's condordance. You don't need to know Hebrew to use this tool.

Justification is a done deal at the moment of faith. Sanctification is also a done deal if you look only to the aspect of adoption. With respect to fellowship, sanctification is a process. But even here, regardless of the degreee of holiness attained, sanctification is a done deal with respect to future glorification (Rom 8).

When justification is blended with sanctification big error happens.
Lloyd

 

[Charles Meadows]

Bmerr,

Charles, please. Let's not go to "hypothetical world". I really didn't expect that from you. I'll forget about it if you will.

Hmmm... What about uncle Chip?

I will say that you articulate your points very well. It makes it very clear on which specific points we differ.

And you say that faith is a work - I anticipated that! Fair enough. But I do not see faith as simply an intellectual recognition of Jesus' saviorship. Jesus said in Jn 6:37 that He would not cast out any who sought after Him. To me this typifies what faith is. Look at God's relationship with Israel in the OT. He wanted them to want Him! Faith in Christ is not just our believing that He is God, but rather our yearning for Him. I think it is that which is the substance of faith - and that is WHY salvation is of faith without works. Yes the true believer will manifest works - but Jesus is what distinguishes Christianity from all human-made religions in which a person disciplines him/herself and lives a life which merits a reward. Remember Jesus' weeping over Jerusalem? Oh Jerusalem if you had only known... We just have to empty ourselves before Him. That's why Jesus is so different than anything else in any religion or "ism".

Now true, no believer will refuse baptism - but my hypothetical situation was constructed to show that it is not the actual baptism which saves a person. If that were the case then baptism is not different than circumcision (I appreciate your discussion of that point - but I disagree).

 

[ascund]

Great post Charles Meadows!

All one has to do is look to father Abraham as Paul's example of OT salvation. Abraham was justified BEFORE circumcision WITHOUT baptism WITHOUT sacraments of any sort and WITHOUT sacrifices or rites.

Since the BIBLE says that there is only ONE BAPTISM, Abraham's example shows that the one true baptism is the Spirit's baptism. Water baptism wasn't even mentioned in the OT times. God's Spirit immersed father Abraham into Jesus Christ at the moment of his faith. Thus, water baptism is NOT REQUIRED for justification.

Your hypothetical example clearly strips away any false appeal to sanctification.

Great post!
Lloyd

 

[Frank]

In every dispensation of time, an obedient active faith accesses the grace of God that saves. Always has. Always will. Romans 5:1,2, Hebrews 11.

 

[Eric B]

As far as man's need to "be changed", as though from some outside force, I'd back away from that idea, personally. It ends up placing the responsibility for every lost soul at the feet of God, since He didn't step in and "change them". I don't think you'd take it that far, but that's where it ends up. It's pretty much Calvinism.

God commands all men everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). God would not command something of man that he was incapable of doing, or that God alone is able to do for him. Man has always been given the choice to either submit to God's commands, or rebel against them.

That is not Calvinism any more than where you quoted "In Acts 2:40-41, we read,

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Then in 2:47, we find,

"...And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

The ASV 1901 puts it like this,

"...And the Lord added to them day by day those that were saved."
or "Jesus said to believe on Him was the 'work of God' (John 6:28-29)."

Still, when you come to God He does something. We do not regenerate or save ourselves, and if we do, then I did not take your illustration too far!

 

[ascund]

Greetings Frank

Originally posted by Frank:
In every dispensation of time, an obedient active faith accesses the grace of God that saves. Always has. Always will. Romans 5:1,2, Hebrews 11.

This is OBE since I've presented the list of Greek passive voice verses involving justify in another thread.

You made one itsy bitsy gigantic error in word selection. The right to say it is as follows:

In every dispensation of time, an obedient PASSIVE faith accesses the grace of God that saves. Always has. Always will. Romans 5:1-2, Hebrews 11.

Even the very verse in Romans which you referenced uses the verb in the passive voice. Doesn't your denomination have any Greek scholars? Even a few Greek students would help.

Lloyd

 

[Frank]

Lloyd:
I am not a part of a denomination. No one doubts that men are justified by faith. But How? Romans 16:26 tells us how.  But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
The purpose of the gospel is to bring all men to obedience to God. Man is justified when he is led by faith to trust and obey God as his master. Paul tells us how in Galatians 3:26,27. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

The passive voice simply indicates they had expressed their faith earlier to become Christians and have peace with God. However, the passive voice does not indicate How?

You can search the entire text of Hebrews 11 and you will find active expressions of faith. Now, these active expressions may have taken place in the past, but they were active at the time God blessed them and saved them. Greek language itself does not suffice for proper interpretation of scriptures. Try enrolling in a course that teaches hermaneutics. Maybe you can get it right.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Frank:

I am not a part of a denomination.

Your denomination is the Church of Christ, as your profile indicates. The COCers deny that this is a denomination, but would they rather be called Cambellites instead? Even the name "Christian" was given out of scorn. Your denominational name, (COC), whether you chose it or not, whether you like it or not, simply identifies who you are. No need to deny it.

No one doubts that men are justified by faith.

Glad you agree. If we just left it there all would be great. Your next question is already answered in this statement. "But how?" It is already answered here. "By faith." There is no other answer as you proceed to try and show. We are justified by faith as the Scripture says. Faith plus nothing.

But How? Romans 16:26 tells us how. But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

What on earth? This verse has nothing to do with justification, sanctification maybe; but justification never. Paul is writing the closing words of his epistle to the believing Romans to the church at Rome. Look at the context of the verse that you just quoted:

Romans 16:24-26 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

In summary this passage has to do with the Great Commission that is given to believers, those that have already been saved and baptized and have been living for the Lord. As Christians we need to obey the Lord and make the gospel known to all nations. There is nothing real profound in that. And it certainly has nothing to do with salvation or justification.

The purpose of the gospel is to bring all men to obedience to God.

Not true. The purpose of the gospel is to make a person a new creature in Christ. Obedience (sanctification) comes after a person is born again, not before. And for the record, the new birth has nothing to do with water baptism. As long as you confuse justification with sanctification you will forever be confused about Biblical salvation. We are justified by faith and faith alone. Baptism is a step of obedience in the Christann's life, a part of the sanctification procees, and has no part in salvation. It is a work. And salvation is by grace through faith...not of works.

Man is justified when he is led by faith to trust and obey God as his master. Paul tells us how in Galatians 3:26,27. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

This passage is so simple. Why do the COCers stumble on it so much of the time?
1. Let's amend your first statement. "Man is justified when his is led by faith to trust God as his master. No need to add that one phrase in there that makes the statement heretical.
2. Gal.3:26 states justification perfectly clear.
"for ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus."
Now if you just stop there and take God at his word, you have no problem. We become God's children by faith and faith alone. That is the teaching isn't it? "Childrent of God by faith in Jesus Christ" It couldn't be any clearer.
3. 27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ."
--The baptism here is not water baptism, and there is nothing in the context to indicate it to be. We were baptized into Christ at the time of our salvation by the Holy Spirit (a Spirit baptism), and have therefore been put into Christ, just as John 15:1-7 has explained to us. You wouldn't doubt the words of Jesus would you?

The passive voice simply indicates they had expressed their faith earlier to become Christians and have peace with God. However, the passive voice does not indicate How?

But it does. It is so simple.
It simply says:
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
The how is: by faith.
We are justified by faith. The how is right there in the verse. We are justified by faith and faith alone.

You can search the entire text of Hebrews 11 and you will find active expressions of faith. Now, these active expressions may have taken place in the past, but they were active at the time God blessed them and saved them. Greek language itself does not suffice for proper interpretation of scriptures. Try enrolling in a course that teaches hermaneutics. Maybe you can get it right.

Sure they were active. But it doesn't say one word about their salvation. It gives example after example of believers who obeyed God because they were saved, not in order to be saved. In other words their obedience was a result of their salvation and part of their sanctification. If you keep confusing justification with sanctification you will never understand sanctification. Abraham was justified by faith. After he was justified by faith, he went out and obeyed God. A saving faith results in works. Works don't result in a saving faith. You have things backwards.
DHK

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally posted by Frank:
The passive voice simply indicates they had expressed their faith earlier to become Christians and have peace with God. However, the passive voice does not indicate How?

Let me quote "In general it can be said that in the passive voice the subject is acted upon or receives the action expressed by the verb. No volition - nor even necessarily awareness of the action - is implied on the part of the subject. That is, the subject may or may not be aware, its volition may or may not be involved. But these things are not stressed when the passive is used." (See http://www.bcbsr.com/greek/gvoice.html)

Originally posted by Frank:
You can search the entire text of Hebrews 11 and you will find active expressions of faith. Now, these active expressions may have taken place in the past, but they were active at the time God blessed them and saved them.

Wrong-O! These expressions link faith with obedience in an overall snapshot of one's salvation. But salvation is composed of justification by faith and sanctification by obedience. There is no link between justification and obedience. The link is between salvation and obedience.

Salvation is much more than justification. I totally endorse good works, obedience, faithfulness, and endurance. But for the right reasons - sanctification and fellowship with God.

Justification is nevertheless stictly, solely, and only by faith in Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Frank:
Greek language itself does not suffice for proper interpretation of scriptures. Try enrolling in a course that teaches hermaneutics. Maybe you can get it right.

Oh brother! What now? Any language is suffient to express the intentions of the author. I suppose you are some experiential type who adds to God's Word every time you have a dream. Let's give you grace on this statement of ignorance.

It is curious to see you appeal to hermeneutics when you have no idea of the basic building blocks of theology.

Lloyd

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally quoted by DKH:
In other words their obedience was a result of their salvation and part of their sanctification. If you keep confusing justification with sanctification you will never understand sanctification. Abraham was justified by faith. After he was justified by faith, he went out and obeyed God. A saving faith results in works. Works don't result in a saving faith. You have things backwards.

It is nice to see how so you so aptly use the terms salvation, justification and sanctification without confusion.

The human urge to do something is terribly powerful. In fact, it is blessed by the Bible for certain aspects. If a man won't work, let him not eat. While paychecks truly don't reflect our personal worth, we have accepted jobs that reward human works on a weekly basis.

Thanks be to God that heavenly things are exactly opposite of earthly things. We get what we don't deserved (grace) and we don't get what we do deserve (mercy).

Lloyd

 

[Briguy]

To Frank and others who believe that faith must have works to be faith.

That is a great thought but think on it realisticly. Lets say a Christian man's wife is dying of cancer and after a two year struggle dies. During that time this man took care of his wife the best he could. His time was occupied between work and the cares for his wife. His Bible reading lapses and prayer time fades in to very little. His church attendance gets less and then goes away for the last several months of his wife's life. He hasn't helped another, given money or done anything for God in many months. He tries to draw strength from God but alas he is sad and after his wife passes he is not sure about God anymore. He is angry with God for a time. Ok, lets stop there. This mans faith is not active and is mind is cluttered with many thoughts and feelings. At what point was his salvation taken away? or does the fact that he struggled and is struggling with the tragic death of his wife mean he never had faith at all? because a "real" Christian would never struggle with God, right? Do you really think the God we serve would leave this man when he needs Him most. If faith always means "works" or being "active", then how much activity is enough? How many works is enough to gain God's acceptance? or to prove your value to God?

The works and the activities of our faith were never meant to justify us before God. Justify menas "to prove", right? Now think of the mans aboves salvation being by faith only, and secure from the moment it was obtained. The works he used to do were not "to prove" to God he had faith because God sees the heart directly. No, the works were for the world to see and to justify us before man, because man can only see the outward. Yes, this man in his sad state is not doing much to forward the gospel and show his faith to others but his salvation is secure because Jesus is the anchor of the soul, SURE AND STEADFAST. In other words our witness to others can diminish and our faith lose its effect on others but our eternal salvation was never dependent on what we did anyway so can't be lost.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[bmerr]

ascund,

bmerr here. On what basis do you make this statement:

Originally by ascund:

Even the name "Christian" was given out of scorn.

I have heared this said before, but I find no textual evidence to support it. I may have overlooked it, (probably due to my ignorance of "first year greek"), and if you know where it is, please explain.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[bmerr]

Briguy,

bmerr here. The situation you describe is heart wrenching. I hope you are not speaking from personal experience.

But thinking rationally about it, as you requested, and as I try to do anyway, (though some might argue my success), it would be a part of this man's Christian duty to his wife to care for her by whatever means were neccessary. No person on earth would have more claim to his time and efforts than his wife in this situation.

Care-giving can be discouraging, especially if the death of the loved one occured in spite of it, and could conceivably produce doubts as to the goodness of God, the truth of the Bible, etc.

Whatever the case may be, unless the man in your senario lapsed into sin, his salvation is not in peril. He would not be the first to struggle with doubts as a result of suffering.

I think I get the point you're trying to make, though. I also think you're missing the point Frank, mman, and I have been trying to make. We are all confident of the stand we're taking. But we all need to be open-minded enough to consider the other side of the issue (open-minded, not empty-headed), and honest enough to admit, at the least, that we can understand the other person's point of view.

In reality, I don't think we're all that far apart on the issue of salvation. My position is that an obedient faith saves. Your postion (if I understand it correctly) is that a saving faith obeys.

It also seems as though you adhere to "once saved, always saved", (which I don't think the Bible teaches), based on your statement,

...our eternal salvation was never dependent on what we did anyway so can't be lost.

Maybe I'll start a thread where that can be discussed as well. In closing, I'll make an appeal for you to consider this thought regarding faith not working and working faith: John 12:42: Were the chief rulers in this text lost, or saved?

In Christ,

bmerr