Divine Justice

[JonC]

I have been reading a few posts by Calvinists and it occurs to me that terms have not been adequately defined. The main term is perhaps "justice" itself.

I believe that our understanding of justice may contribute to our disagreements.

I woukd like to look, therefore, at justice itself. The reason is we cannot come to a mutual understanding (even if we continue to disagree) without exploring justice itself. It does no good to look at the Cross if we are working off of different concepts of the "sin problem" as it relates to divine justice.


Let’s look at the “divine court” (at Judgement, that event that will occur when God separates people like a shepherd separates goats from sheep). This called “that day”, the “day of wrath”, “Judgment”.

Sitting in the “court room” there are two groups of people. One group is “the wicked”. The other group has been conformed into the image of Christ.

The wicked have “stored up wrath for themselves for the day of wrath”. This day has arrived and they are condemned, cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death.

But we are talking about this other group.

Can God justify these people without punishing their crimes?

What if rather than punishing these people God makes them new creations in Christ, removes their old heart and spirit, gives them a new heart and spirit, puts His Spirit in them? What if God conforms these people into the image of Christ? What if these people die to sin, put to death the “old man” who would have been the object of God’s punishment at judgment?

If those things happen then when God judges us we are literally innocent of any sin. Why? Because of the work of Christ. We are made new creations in Him, we are crucified with Him, we are made into His image.

The person who stands in that “divine court”, if they are saved, are so based on Christ Himself. They are made into His brothers, Jesus being the Firstborn of many brethren.



The question is whether this satisfies what some view as the demands of justice.

My answer is “of course”. If the guilty are made innocent then justice is served. Justice itself is not about punishing crimes. Punishing crimes is something that is done within a just system to achieve a better state of justice. So if you could make the criminal “righteous” then that would achieve justice.

 

[Brightfame52]

I have been reading a few posts by Calvinists and it occurs to me that terms have not been adequately defined. The main term is perhaps "justice" itself.

I believe that our understanding of justice may contribute to our disagreements.

I woukd like to look, therefore, at justice itself. The reason is we cannot come to a mutual understanding (even if we continue to disagree) without exploring justice itself. It does no good to look at the Cross if we are working off of different concepts of the "sin problem" as it relates to divine justice.


Let’s look at the “divine court” (at Judgement, that event that will occur when God separates people like a shepherd separates goats from sheep). This called “that day”, the “day of wrath”, “Judgment”.

Sitting in the “court room” there are two groups of people. One group is “the wicked”. The other group has been conformed into the image of Christ.

The wicked have “stored up wrath for themselves for the day of wrath”. This day has arrived and they are condemned, cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death.

But we are talking about this other group.

Can God justify these people without punishing their crimes?

What if rather than punishing these people God makes them new creations in Christ, removes their old heart and spirit, gives them a new heart and spirit, puts His Spirit in them? What if God conforms these people into the image of Christ? What if these people die to sin, put to death the “old man” who would have been the object of God’s punishment at judgment?

If those things happen then when God judges us we are literally innocent of any sin. Why? Because of the work of Christ. We are made new creations in Him, we are crucified with Him, we are made into His image.

The person who stands in that “divine court”, if they are saved, are so based on Christ Himself. They are made into His brothers, Jesus being the Firstborn of many brethren.



The question is whether this satisfies what some view as the demands of justice.

My answer is “of course”. If the guilty are made innocent then justice is served. Justice itself is not about punishing crimes. Punishing crimes is something that is done within a just system to achieve a better state of justice. So if you could make the criminal “righteous” then that would achieve justice.

This supposed that Christ died for every individual , He didn't , He died only for the elect so the non-elect sins remain counted against them, Justice for them is the lake of fire

 

[JonC]

This supposed that Christ died for every individual , He didn't , He died only for the elect so the non-elect sins remain counted against them, Justice for them is the lake of fire

You completely misunderstood the OP.

The wicked have “stored up wrath for themselves for the day of wrath”. This day has arrived and they are condemned, cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death.

But we are talking about this other group.

Can God justify these people without punishing their crimes?

What if rather than punishing these people God makes them new creations in Christ, removes their old heart and spirit, gives them a new heart and spirit, puts His Spirit in them? What if God conforms these people into the image of Christ? What if these people die to sin, put to death the “old man” who would have been the object of God’s punishment at judgment?

If those things happen then when God judges us we are literally innocent of any sin. Why? Because of the work of Christ. We are made new creations in Him, we are crucified with Him, we are made into His image.

The person who stands in that “divine court”, if they are saved, are so based on Christ Himself. They are made into His brothers, Jesus being the Firstborn of many brethren.

The topic is divine justice, not the extent of the Atonement.

If at Judgment we have died to sin, been made into new creations in Christ, been conformed to His image, been glorified....and this the work of Christ Himself as "He became a life giving Spirit", God gave us a new heart and spirit....etc...then why would God have had to punish our sins laid on Jesus in the first place?

I am saying that our concepts of divine justice are important when it comes to discussing how God justifies sinners.

 

[JonC]

@Brightfame52

Another way to look at the question (perhaps a more simple way):

Some believe that divine justice requires God to punish sins in order to forgive sinners.

But if God could make the guilty person into a "not guilty person" (make the person, by the Day of Judgment, a new creation conformed to the image of Christ) then why would God need to have punished the sins of the saved at all?

 

[Aaron]

Why would He have to punish anyone at all?

 

[JonC]

Why would He have to punish anyone at all?

I do not believe that punishment is an end unto itself, but God is holy and that which is unholy and "anti-Christ" is unjust (God Himself is, IMHO, the standard for "good").

Kinda like pure gold if gold is the standard if perfection. Why would we remove impurities? Because it is not gold (it misses the mark).

So my answer is that the casting out of the wicked, the casting them into the Lake of Fire, is more akin to burning worthless weeds than for the sake of punishment itself.


So I can get God punishing the wicked at Judgment.

I am not sure why people think that God had to punish the sins of thise who will be made new creations, who die to sin, are at Judgment conformed to the image of Christ (are, at Judgment, righteous).

It seems that whether God punished their sins on Christ or not they would be guiltless "on that day" because God would have removed their old heart and spirit and gave them new ones, they woukd be refined, made new creations in Christ, died to sin, and conformed into Christ's image.

So there has to be a reason other than justifying the sinner if Jesus experienced our punishment as we would be justified by being recreated in His image.

 

[Aaron]

Punishment is repayment actually. The wicked aren't purged. They're repaid.

Why the demand for any of it?

 

[Zaatar71]

I have been reading a few posts by Calvinists and it occurs to me that terms have not been adequately defined. The main term is perhaps "justice" itself.

I believe that our understanding of justice may contribute to our disagreements.

I woukd like to look, therefore, at justice itself. The reason is we cannot come to a mutual understanding (even if we continue to disagree) without exploring justice itself. It does no good to look at the Cross if we are working off of different concepts of the "sin problem" as it relates to divine justice.


Let’s look at the “divine court” (at Judgement, that event that will occur when God separates people like a shepherd separates goats from sheep). This called “that day”, the “day of wrath”, “Judgment”.

Sitting in the “court room” there are two groups of people. One group is “the wicked”. The other group has been conformed into the image of Christ.

The wicked have “stored up wrath for themselves for the day of wrath”. This day has arrived and they are condemned, cast into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death.

But we are talking about this other group.

Can God justify these people without punishing their crimes?

that would make God unjust, this is where you depart from the mainstream. You are suggesting one group gets punished for sins, and the second group, somehow their sin did not have the wrath abiding upon it.
One group goes to hell the other who committed sins equally worthy of punishment is just changed without reference to the wrath of God as described in Romans 1 against ALL unrighteousness of men, who are truth suppressors. You have been asked over and over to account for this, and you do not do it. You cannot cobble together partial verses and invent your own gospel in which the Lamb that was slain is not central. That is what you stated view attempts to do, and no one accepts that.

What if

There is no what if? God has sent Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the worldJn 1:29. your isolated ideas will never change that. In fact, as stated they deny the gospel.

rather than punishing these people God makes them new creations in Christ, removes their old heart and spirit, gives them a new heart and spirit, puts His Spirit in them?

Because as was posted, you cannot cherry pick parts of verses, and avoid the real issue.

What if God conforms these people into the image of Christ?

We know the elect are being conformed to the Image of Christ, but this is only because of what the lamb has came and accomplished by the blood of the cross.

What if these people die to sin,

people do not just "die to sin". The elect are co-crucified with Christ.

put to death the “old man” who would have been the object of God’s punishment at judgment?

They cannot just mysteriously put to death the old man. This is another type of gospel not revealed in scripture.

If those things happen

They do not. No one has taught these ideas at all. This is your opinion, which of course you are welcome to. Thanks for sharing your opinion with us, so we can see what you are puzzling over!

then when God judges us we are literally innocent of any sin.

This is a novelty, on what basis is sin forgiven? You have been asked where did the wrath go? You deny all the verses describing where it went, to the lamb slain on the Cross. This is totally unacceptable to Christians everywhere.

Why? Because of the work of Christ.

what work is that? That is what you deny , time and time again!

We are made new creations in Him,

This is not the issue being discussed!

we are crucified with Him,

In what way? Why are we "crucified with him? You cannot deny PSA, then claim part of it!

we are made into His image.

this is not the issue.

The person who stands in that “divine court”, if they are saved, are so based on Christ Himself.

No if you deny PSA, which in your opinion is false.

They are made into His brothers, Jesus being the Firstborn of many brethren.

Not the issue. this is cobbled together.

The question is whether this satisfies what some view as the demands of justice.

What you described is not justice as the bible describes it. Hab1:
12 Art thou not from everlasting, O Lord my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O Lord, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

13 Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

Ex34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

You claim he will clear the guilty without PSA. This is a fantasy idea, not contained in scripture.

My answer is “of course”. If the guilty are made innocent

Here is your denial, posted right here!

then justice is served.

What you describe is not justice at all, but would be a grave injustice.

Justice itself is not about punishing crimes.

Wrong

Punishing crimes is something that is done within a just system to achieve a better state of justice. So if you could make the criminal “righteous” then that would achieve justice.

This is the issue that is not resolved by your proposed solution.