Division is GOOD!

[The Biblicist]

Totally false, and you know it.

Do I? How would you know that? I have provided several threads on John 6:37-65 and none of which you have ever replied to. John 6:39 in its context exposes your gospel as completely false. The Father entrusted the Son to carry out His will that "OF ALL" that had been given unto him by the Father that he "SHALL LOSE NOTHING".

Your doctrine, or gospel flatly contradicts these words and these words are placed in a context that explicitly deals with the possibility of true children of God losing salvation.

BTW, as long as you were disparaging and falsifying the beliefs of the SDAs, CoC, and Methodists, why didn't you include the General Baptists and Free Will Baptists in your list?

Very well, I do include them. I include all who preach "another gospel" that the bottom line is ultimate justification by works. Isn't that precisely how you interpet Rom. 2:6-13???? Don't you include saved people in Romans 2:6-13??? Do you find anything other than the Law and works in Romans 2:6-13???? Don't you interpet Romans 2:6-13 exactly as does the SDA???

You make "good" works part of the cause of justification by making the "necessary" according to an unbiblical standard called "characterized" instead of the Biblical standard of "sinless perfection." Thus by your standard those like "Lot" can only be concluded to be lost whereas Peter says he was "righteous" according to the Biblical standard.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by The Biblicist

Again pure semantics. The SDA makes the "fruits" part of the necessary cause of salvation in the day of Judgement.

Christ said "by their fruits you shall know them" and argues against your idea that fruits do not demonstrate the saved or lost condition of the person.

The SDA statement on this is that looking at the tree - does not CHANGE the tree. The tree is already saved or lost - already good or bad. The fruit just reveals the fact - it does not change it.

As is often the case your difference is based on your lack of understanding of the position of the person that does not share your view.

More accuracy - less smoke please.

Of course I believe that good works are the "fruit" of regeneration and manifestation of a child of God. However, Jesus does not say "by their fruits I shall know them" but "YOU" shall know them.

Ok back to basics it is.

We all know that God is "all knowing". The Judgment seat of Christ in 2Cor 5:10, the Judgment in Romans 2:11-16, the Judgment of Dan 7:9-12 is not a case where "God finally figures something out".

God is .... all knowing.

So circling back to "yes but God is all knowing" does not delete the point of these texts. Thus as Christ demonstrates in Matt 7 the fruit is how the saints will be known (will be seen to be good trees - producing good fruit).

The corporate setting for judgment that you see in Daniel 7 - is not for God's personal benefit. It is not so He can finally take the time to figure something out.

That was the "given" at the start.

It is one thing to say "good" works are fruits and quite another thing to say that "fruits" are the ultimate essential that determines hell or eternal life on the day of judgement! That is your interpretation of Rom. 2:6-15.

Christ is the one in John 15:1-5 and in Matt 7 and in Romans 2:5-16 that tells us that the person is judged based on those fruits in that future judgment.

Your argument is "with the text".

But this is not a case of the lost "Becoming saved" - rather the future judgment is a case of the lost "shown" to be lost and the saved "shown to be saved" - by the rule of Matt 7. By the rule of Romans 2:6-16. By the rule of 2Cor 5:10 - by the Rule of 1John 2:4-9.

By their fruits you shall know them.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
--------------- Here is a question for you

I do not claim to be Baptist -- but you might. So do you agree with your own Baptist Confession of Faith as edited by Spurgeon?

Baptist Confession of Faith as revised by C.H.Spurgeon

[FONT=&quot]19.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] The Law of God [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience [/FONT][FONT=&quot]which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The same law that was first written in the heart of man[/FONT][FONT=&quot] continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the TEN Commandments and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone[/FONT][FONT=&quot], justified people as well[/FONT][FONT=&quot] as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it. [/FONT]

The Baptist Confession of Faith shows that the TEN Commandments are the MORAL Law of God - given to all mankind in Eden and written on the heart as part of the New Covenant.

It contrasts this to the civil laws and ceremonial laws that are only applicable to the theocracy of Israel or to a time before the cross.

I take the same position on the Law of God. I believe that even man made distinctions of "civil" versus "ceremonial" laws all are based upon eternal moral principles....

Interesting - however the unique nature of the moral law is well defined by the BCF in both of its forms and it points distinctively to the Ten Commandments as central to that moral law - written on the heart (and so often railed against).

However, where this Baptist Confession of faith differs from SDA and its view of the law is a vital distinction. We believe we are "dead" to the law as far as any final condemnation/judgement and that the law is used only in the day of judgement to determine the nature of our rewards n.

There is not one single text of scripture saying that rebellion against the Law of God - merely gets you "less toys in heaven".

I think we both know that.

"The wages of sin is death" according to Paul in Romans 6:23. -- not "less toys in heaven".

And John reminds us in 1John 3:4 "sin is transgression of the law".

He also tells us in 1John 2:3-9 that those who claim to know and love Christ and yet who do not keep His Commandments - are in fact lying.

This goes well beyond "get less toys in heaven".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

There is not one single text of scripture saying that rebellion against the Law of God - merely gets you "less toys in heaven".

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Mt. 5:19

Both are "in" the kingdom of heaven and the only difference is between "least" and "greatest" not saved and lost.

"The wages of sin is death" according to Paul in Romans 6:23. -- not "less toys in heaven".

Why quote only HALF of Romans 6:23? There are two final contrasts. One is a free GIFT while the other is WAGES. The WAGES of the sins by believers has been PAID IN FULL and that is why the believer is "DEAD" to the Law - Rom. 7:1-5 and shall not come into condemnation - Jn. 5:24.

And John reminds us in 1John 3:4 "sin is transgression of the law".

Correct! But we are talking about the PENALTY not the definition of sin. When Christ said "IT IS FINISHED" the Greek term literally means "PAID IN FULL."

He also tells us in 1John 2:3-9 that those who claim to know and love Christ and yet who do not keep His Commandments - are in fact lying.

Correct! that is what distinguishes between true and false professors - 1 Jn. 2:19. True believers "no doubt" continue.

This goes well beyond "get less toys in heaven".

Your problem is that you must still admit that the works of Christians do in fact determine what you called "toys" or rewards in heaven.

 

[TisMe]

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Mt. 5:19

Both are "in" the kingdom of heaven and the only difference is between "least" and "greatest" not saved and lost.





Why quote only HALF of Romans 6:23? There are two final contrasts. One is a free GIFT while the other is WAGES. The WAGES of the sins by believers has been PAID IN FULL and that is why the believer is "DEAD" to the Law - Rom. 7:1-5 and shall not come into condemnation - Jn. 5:24.



Correct! But we are talking about the PENALTY not the definition of sin. When Christ said "IT IS FINISHED" the Greek term literally means "PAID IN FULL."



Correct! that is what distinguishes between true and false professors - 1 Jn. 2:19. True believers "no doubt" continue.

Your problem is that you must still admit that the works of Christians do in fact determine what you called "toys" or rewards in heaven.

Most all points of interpretation made by Bib are incorrect. I would stick to reading Bob or what Thomas have to say on the matter.

 

[The Biblicist]

Thus as Christ demonstrates in Matt 7 the fruit is how the saints will be known (will be seen to be good trees - producing good fruit).

No, he is describing how LOST FALSE PROPHETS can be known. The Saved are known by the FOUNDATION their "house" (life) is built on. There is no difference between the self-righteous "house" (Mt. 7:22) and the house of the righteous - IT IS THE FOUNDATION that is different.

The corporate setting for judgment that you see in Daniel 7 - is not for God's personal benefit. It is not so He can finally take the time to figure something out.

There is a difference between the resurrection of the righteous and that of the wicked. The righteous are raised from the grave GLORIFIED before they stand before the Lord to be rewarded in heaven.

Christ is the one in John 15:1-5 and in Matt 7 and in Romans 2:5-16 that tells us that the person is judged based on those fruits in that future judgment.

Your mixing apples with oranges again. Romans 2 is not Christ speaking but Paul and saints have no part of that text except in your imagination.

Your argument is "with the text.

:laugh:

You are simply ignoring both context and rational thinking.

1. PERSONS of context - 2:15; 2:17-25 - lost self-righteous hypocrits
2. PRINCIPLES of context - 2:17-25 - What is required for just judgment

the saved "shown to be saved" - by the rule of Matt 7. By the rule of Romans 2:6-16. By the rule of 2Cor 5:10 - by the Rule of 1John 2:4-9.

The saved already know they are saved - Jn. 5:24; 1 Jn. 5:13
Christ already knows his sheep - Jn. 10:28-30
Matthew 7 is about self-righteous hypocrits
Romans 2:6-16 is about self-righteous hypocrits
1 Jn. 2:4-9 by you own admission is about Liars

 

[Jope]

There is not one single text of scripture saying that rebellion against the Law of God - merely gets you "less toys in heaven".

Hey Bob.

2Corinthians 5:10 says that the Christian will be judged according to what he has done in his pilgrim days on earth - good or bad.

1Corinthians 3:10-15 says that some Christians will be saved only as by fire. They do not have much of a building we see.

2Timothy 2:20 is speaking of the heavenly house that the Christian will be clothed with (2Cor. 5:1-2). It says that there are some vessels for honour, others to dishonour.

The Christian is the vessel of the heavenly house. The Christian is a "lively stone" (1Pet. 2:5, KJV).

We can see therefore, that there will be ranks, or better rewards for some Christians than others, based on the way they have conducted their pilgrimage on earth.

Also, here is some Iranaeus :

[They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold...and that was on this account the Lord declared, “In My Father’s house are many mansions.” (Joh_14:2)

Against Heresies, Book 5, Chap. XXXVI, 2.​

I agree with Iranaeus, that there is a different place, or reward at least, for those who bear a hundredfold, sixty, or thirty (Mt. 13:23).

 

[Jope]

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. - Mt. 5:19

Both are "in" the kingdom of heaven and the only difference is between "least" and "greatest" not saved and lost.

Hey Biblicist. How familiar are you with dispensationalism? Do you know who Lewis Chafer is?

 

[The Biblicist]

Hey Biblicist. How familiar are you with dispensationalism? Do you know who Lewis Chafer is?

Very familar and yes I know who Chafer is. I am not a hyper-dispensationalist. I do make a distinction between Israel and the church and I do believe in the future salvation of "all Israel" as a nation. However, I believe the same gospel of grace was preached prior to Calvary as after and people were saved exactly the same way before as after.

I make a distinction between the PUBLIC administration of the old and new covenants versus PERSONAL salvation under the "everlasting covenant." The PUBLIC old and new covenants had to do with revealing the gospel by PUBLIC ordinances, a PUBLIC ministry, through a PUBLIC house of God and were for PUBLIC service by God's people. The old PUBLIC covenant administration anticipated the cross through its PUBLIC ordinances with emphasis on the Law while the new PUBLIC covenant administration anticpates the Second Coming from a fulfilled cross. Neither Public administration obtains salvation for anyone as that has always been through the PERSONAL administration of the everlasting covenant by the Holy Spirit in all ages since Genesis to Revelation (Heb. 13:20).

 

[Jope]

Very familar and yes I know who Chafer is. I am not a hyper-dispensationalist. I do make a distinction between Israel and the church and I do believe in the future salvation of "all Israel" as a nation. However, I believe the same gospel of grace was preached prior to Calvary as after and people were saved exactly the same way before as after.

Hey Biblicist, I understand that that sounds pretty unsound to say that there are two gospels. What might immediately come to mind is Paul's statement in Galatians, that there is no other gospel than the gospel of grace (Gal. 1:7).

However, how do we compensate for the fact that the apostles knew nothing of Christ's death and resurrection (Luke 18:31-34), while they were preaching the gospel of the kingdom (Matt. 10:7; 11:5; Luke 9:6)?

Luke 18 ESV, bold emphasis mine
31 And taking the twelve, he said to them, “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written about the Son of Man by the prophets will be accomplished. 32 For he will be delivered over to the Gentiles and will be mocked and shamefully treated and spit upon. 33 And after flogging him, they will kill him, and on the third day he will rise.” 34 But they understood none of these things. This saying was hidden from them, and they did not grasp what was said.​

I therefore believe that there are at least two gospels: the gospel of the kingdom (Matt. 4:23; 9:35; 24:14; Mark 1:14), and the gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24). What Paul is saying in Galatians is that there is no other gospel, than the gospel of the grace of God, to be preached during this present dispensation.

I make a distinction between the PUBLIC administration of the old and new covenants versus PERSONAL salvation under the "everlasting covenant." The PUBLIC old and new covenants had to do with revealing the gospel by PUBLIC ordinances, a PUBLIC ministry, through a PUBLIC house of God and were for PUBLIC service by God's people. The old PUBLIC covenant administration anticipated the cross through its PUBLIC ordinances with emphasis on the Law while the new PUBLIC covenant administration anticpates the Second Coming from a fulfilled cross. Neither Public administration obtains salvation for anyone as that has always been through the PERSONAL administration of the everlasting covenant by the Holy Spirit in all ages since Genesis to Revelation (Heb. 13:20).

The everlasting covenant of Hebrews 13:20 was not made with Adam.

This everlasting covenant was made with blood. In Hebrews 9 we read, that "where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives" (v. 16-17, NASB). The everlasting covenant was made after Christ died. Seeing as it was when Christ died that the blood sacrifice was made. From the point that the covenant was made onward it is everlasting.

 

[Jope]

Anyways, the reason why I bring dispensationalism up, is because that it teaches that the sermon on the mount was millennial law for Israel.

http://www.bbmhp.org/chafer/kingdom04.html

 

[Jope]

Anyways, the reason why I bring dispensationalism up, is because that it teaches that the sermon on the mount was millennial law for Israel.

http://www.bbmhp.org/chafer/kingdom04.html

...And Matthew 5:19, that teaches that rank in the kingdom is based on teaching and doing "these commandments" (ESV), could be speaking of commandments that are not placed on the Church.

In the same sermon, we read that Mosaic altar doctrine is to be kept (Mt. 5:23-24). This sermon evidently was preached to a people different from the Church, who is not under the law (Rom. 6:14-15).

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Do I? How would you know that? I have provided several threads on John 6:37-65 and none of which you have ever replied to. John 6:39 in its context exposes your gospel as completely false. The Father entrusted the Son to carry out His will that "OF ALL" that had been given unto him by the Father that he "SHALL LOSE NOTHING".

Your doctrine, or gospel flatly contradicts these words and these words are placed in a context that explicitly deals with the possibility of true children of God losing salvation.




Very well, I do include them. I include all who preach "another gospel" that the bottom line is ultimate justification by works. Isn't that precisely how you interpet Rom. 2:6-13???? Don't you include saved people in Romans 2:6-13??? Do you find anything other than the Law and works in Romans 2:6-13???? Don't you interpet Romans 2:6-13 exactly as does the SDA???

You make "good" works part of the cause of justification by making the "necessary" according to an unbiblical standard called "characterized" instead of the Biblical standard of "sinless perfection." Thus by your standard those like "Lot" can only be concluded to be lost whereas Peter says he was "righteous" according to the Biblical standard.

I scarcely know where to begin in reply to your multitude of falsehoods and misrepresentations.

The John 6 passage taken in its clear context, along with other passages that have been pointed out, clearly exposes your opinion as completely false. No one and no church prior to Calvin believed as you do. Your doctrine is a johnny-come-lately man-made invention by deterministic fatalists. It is a doctrine which not only has no basis in scripture or the first 1500 years of the church, it is a doctrine which totally misrepresents Who God is.

It is a complete and total lie that I hold to justification by works.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

OK, please explain your pov then. How would this present itself in the real world? Does the saved person decide one day, 'hey, I don't feel like believing in Jesus anymore, I think I will stop now, all this grace and mercy stuff, who needs it, I would rather just not believe anymore and go to hell'. ???

OR, does it involve works and sins? That is really the issue isn't it? Nobody decides one day they will stop believing and go to hell. The OSAS opponents will always point to sins and works as proof one has lost their salvation, thus, it must be sins and works which they believe are saving them in the first place.

The first part of your sentence is NOT what OSAS opponents believe. The second part of your sentence is not only false but illogical, as well.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Most all points of interpretation made by Bib are incorrect. I would stick to reading Bob or what Thomas have to say on the matter.

And the reason Biblicist is incorrect is because he starts with a false premise of Who God is, a premise based on a deterministic fatalism unknown in scripture or the church for 1500 years.

 

[The Biblicist]

I scarcely know where to begin in reply to your multitude of falsehoods and misrepresentations.

The John 6 passage taken in its clear context, along with other passages that have been pointed out, clearly exposes your opinion as completely false. No one and no church prior to Calvin believed as you do. Your doctrine is a johnny-come-lately man-made invention by deterministic fatalists. It is a doctrine which not only has no basis in scripture or the first 1500 years of the church, it is a doctrine which totally misrepresents Who God is.

It is a complete and total lie that I hold to justification by works.

Again, absolutely no substance in your responses! Accusations galore but no substance. Can't you deal with scripture exegetically or expositionally? Perhpas you have no language background, but even so, why not even attempt to to an expositional response if I am jerking things out of context?

Don't reply that you already have because I HAVE NEVER EVER READ of such a response ANYWHERE by you of this passage. Point it out, repeat it, do something other than just assert empty unproven accusations!

 

[The Biblicist]

And the reason Biblicist is incorrect is because he starts with a false premise of Who God is, a premise based on a deterministic fatalism unknown in scripture or the church for 1500 years.

Another philosophical response but completey EMPTY of Biblical substance. You do real fine at making unstantiated accusations but I have yet to read any response by you that has an exegetical or expositional based response! Are you incapable of such?????

I am not going to join you in simply exchanging insults and accusations. If you have any kind of Biblical abiltiy show it by providing contextual based responses with some kind of substance.

 

[The Biblicist]

...And Matthew 5:19, that teaches that rank in the kingdom is based on teaching and doing "these commandments" (ESV), could be speaking of commandments that are not placed on the Church.

In the same sermon, we read that Mosaic altar doctrine is to be kept (Mt. 5:23-24). This sermon evidently was preached to a people different from the Church, who is not under the law (Rom. 6:14-15).

There are many contextual based reasons why this theory cannot be true. However, this is not the thread to address those issues. If you would like to discuss your idea then open a thread up and I will be glad to discuss why I do accept that intepretation of the Sermon on the mount.

 

[steaver]

The first part of your sentence is NOT what OSAS opponents believe. The second part of your sentence is not only false but illogical, as well.

Ok, but you gave no answer to my question...

OK, please explain your pov then. How would this present itself in the real world? Does the saved person decide one day, 'hey, I don't feel like believing in Jesus anymore, I think I will stop now, all this grace and mercy stuff, who needs it, I would rather just not believe anymore and go to hell'. ???

 

[BobRyan]

Hey Bob.

2Corinthians 5:10 says that the Christian will be judged according to what he has done in his pilgrim days on earth - good or bad.

True and Romans 6:23 says that the reward for bad deeds is death -- John calls it the "lake of fire" in Rev 20. And in Romans 6:16-23 we see the contrast between eternal life and death - based on deeds.

So also in Romans 2:6-16 - the contrast between life and death and how that relates to the deeds done in the body is explained in triplicate.

.

1Corinthians 3:10-15 says that some Christians will be saved only as by fire.

In 1Cor 3 it is the teaching that goes through the fire - not the person.

2Timothy 2:20 is speaking of the heavenly house that the Christian will be clothed with (2Cor. 5:1-2). It says that there are some vessels for honour, others to dishonour.

2 Tim 2:20 says nothing at all about vessels of dishonor going to heaven.

Details matter in this case
===============================

2Tim 2

15Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. 17 And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, 18 who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”
20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor. 21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.
22 Flee also youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

as with Romans 2


3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:

7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.


Nothing at ALL in their about "more or less toys" in heaven. The frivolous Bible that many imagine to be there - simply does not exist.

in Christ,

Bob