Divorce and Remarriage: the real issue.

[saturneptune]

Or, a 4th option is to believe Matt 5:32. This is a very complicated issue to be sure. I am thankful to God every day that it is not an issue for me because by His grace, I have been married 29 years yesterday.

Speaking of being stoned for adultry is the way Israel dealt with the situation. We live in a country where cruel and unusual punishment is against the law, and am very glad to be here and not there. So, since we are here, use the Bible to deal with the situation as it applies today. Stoning is a non issue.

Between Matt 5:32, and Christ's forgivness, all individual situations can be handled in a loving and Christ like way.

 

[npetreley]

Between Matt 5:32, and Christ's forgivness, all individual situations can be handled in a loving and Christ like way.

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying, but if it's what I think you're saying, I agree.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I do not throw rocks. But you must be very, very, very sleepy. I am under the impression that today is Friday, but you think it is Saturday. Or could there be another explanation? Could it be you are a Seventh Day Adventist or a Catholic going to Saturday Mass?:tongue3:

Talk to you next time PinoyBaptist:sleeping_2:

peace to youraying:

Gosh, I truly thought last night was Saturday night. My wife gave me a "what-in-tarnation-are-you-saying" look this morning when I told her to go ahead and use the bathroom early so I can use it and we can get ready because it's a long drive to that reformed church we found on the net in Angola, New York.
She said, "what about my work" ?
Then, I gave her the "what-in-tarnation-are-you-saying" look, until I looked at my watch, and it said "Sat 5, loco".

Hope you had a good night's sleep, bro.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I know it got deflected before with the "rapture" accusation.. but just in case "someone" found some scripture to hold their position, I'm still interested.

I take it the someone in quotation marks means me ?
I think J.Jump explained that clearly.
The divorce is invalid before the eyes of God. (What God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. [From the lips of Jesus Christ Himself, unless of course that doesn't mean anything.]
It is man who said it is valid, not God.
Before God, the marriage is insoluble until one spouse dies. Only then is the surviving spouse free to marry.
If that condition is not met, and either spouse marry, before man's laws that divorce and subsequent marriage is valid, but before God, such unions are adulteries.
Now the Bible says "abstain from all appearance of evil", and which is evil ?
The one God says is evil ? Or the one the world says is evil.
Clearly it must be God's standards that is to be the measuring stick, and if God says such union is adulterous, then it behooves the pastor to protect the flock by steering it away from that appearance.
"Some" here had made forgiveness the issue.
It is not an issue. Anyone can fall into that sin and worse, unknowingly. And anyone can fall into sin, knowingly, willingly, and consciously.
Either case, if one is a child of God, all his sins have been forgiven but having two practicing adulterers as members of the church with the right to partake of the Lord's table is just something my conscience cannot allow.
If you all can do that, more power to you.

 

[El_Guero]

OK

The real, real issue. The real, real hypothetical (it actually happens).

She wants a divorce. Man doesn't want a divorce - not scriptural. She wants to give him the scriptural reason. She cheats. He catches his wife with another man. Instead of divorce (he is concerned about the scriptural consequences) he shoots kills & her and lets him go crippled.

He goes to jail for a plea bargain on manslaughter - is he divorced? Would he face the consequence of divorce?

What say ye?

 

[npetreley]

OK

The real, real issue. The real, real hypothetical (it actually happens).

She wants a divorce. Man doesn't want a divorce - not scriptural. She wants to give him the scriptural reason. She cheats. He catches his wife with another man. Instead of divorce (he is concerned about the scriptural consequences) he shoots kills & her and lets him go crippled.

He goes to jail for a plea bargain on manslaughter - is he divorced? Would he face the consequence of divorce?

What say ye?

He gets out of jail, remarries, and is welcomed back into the church with open arms. He's completely forgiven. After all, what he did was murder and maim. He didn't go so far as to divorce anyone.

Edit: Note for the humor imparied -- this is a joke. As with many jokes, there's an element of truth in it. As I've said elsewhere, I applied to several Baptist mission groups. I was rejected from all but one simply because there's a checkbox on the application that says [x] divorced. There are no checkboxes on any of these applications for [ ] murdered someone, [ ] former satan worshipper, [ ] <insert egregious sin here>. Apparently they're not concerned about these things, only divorce.

 

[pinoybaptist]

He gets out of jail, remarries, and is welcomed back into the church with open arms. He's completely forgiven. After all, what he did was murder and maim. He didn't go so far as to divorce anyone.

Edit: Note for the humor imparied -- this is a joke. As with many jokes, there's an element of truth in it. As I've said elsewhere, I applied to several Baptist mission groups. I was rejected from all but one simply because there's a checkbox on the application that says [x] divorced. There are no checkboxes on any of these applications for [ ] murdered someone, [ ] former satan worshipper, [ ] <insert egregious sin here>. Apparently they're not concerned about these things, only divorce.

Along the same lines, in 1997 the church I was pastoring wanted me ordained.
I contacted some pastors and missionaries to act as the ordaining council.
One of them was a graduate of Bob Jones for his ministerial education, and Georgetown U for his secular education.
The other was a missionary from Oklahoma City.
The rest were fellow Filipinos.
The Filipinos said, "fine with us".
The Americans said no.
Reason ?
My wife was here in the States, and, according to them, the Bible said to "avoid all appearances of evil", secondly, one Biblical requirement is that the bishop be blameless (1 Tim 3:2, Titus 3:6)and my being married with no wife around can cause gossip on how I "get along", and therefore that doesn't make me blameless which being interpreted was cannot be gossiped about by those who are outside the church.

I could look for others, but Scriptures are Scriptures, and you can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.

Now, a former murderer, an ex-convict, a former Satanist are strong testimonies to the power of the gospel and to the grace and mercy of Christ.

Boy Bilibid whose story I shared in one of my posts probably killed more than 20 in his lifetime, from poor farmers to soldiers to well-known politicians, until he was converted, and is now pastoring.

Is he a strong testimony, or not ?

On the other hand, I know of a pastor who left his wife, ran away with his 20 year old Sunday School teacher, still insisted his calling to preach is from God, and went and started a church.

Would you want him as your pastor ?

 

[npetreley]

Reason ?
My wife was here in the States, and, according to them, the Bible said to "avoid all appearances of evil"

I don't know if you'll laugh with me, but I'm afraid I got a really good laugh out of that one. That's not what the verse means at all. Look at the Greek (or just about any good translation other than KJV, which is an excellent translation, but often misunderstood). It means avoid all evil, wherever and however it appears. Not "avoid appearing evil". If it meant the latter, Jesus would have been a #1 offender (remember how He was accused of being a wine-bibber and spending so much time with sinners?)

 

[npetreley]

On the other hand, I know of a pastor who left his wife, ran away with his 20 year old Sunday School teacher, still insisted his calling to preach is from God, and went and started a church.

Would you want him as your pastor ?

No, of course not. He's living a lie, and he's eventually going to reap what he has sown. If he TRULY repented, etc., and it was evident that his entire life had changed, then maybe I would want him as a pastor. I don't know.

But if a pastor was faithful to his wife but even had a tendency to lie, I wouldn't want him as a pastor, either. Or if a pastor had a tendency to water down scriptures to avoid offending anyone, I wouldn't want him as a pastor, either. If a pastor was flawless in his family life but taught unsound doctrine, I wouldn't want him as a pastor, either. I'm very picky about pastors.

Back to divorce. I believe my 2 divorces are biblical. However, I think that even an unbiblical divorce is forgivable if the person repents. That's the issue for me. Obviously, the pastor to which you refer doesn't seem to think he's done anything wrong - which is a self-deception I can't fathom.

 

[pinoybaptist]

No, of course not. He's living a lie, and he's eventually going to reap what he has sown. If he TRULY repented, etc., and it was evident that his entire life had changed, then maybe I would want him as a pastor. I don't know.

And along the same vein, I said in the other thread that I would ask for the exclusion of members who, after much laboring by elders, go ahead and divorce and remarry which got everybody's goat. Well, almost eveybody.
Now, if they divorced and remarried before they joined the church, that is another matter.

But if a pastor was faithful to his wife but even had a tendency to lie, I wouldn't want him as a pastor, either. Or if a pastor had a tendency to water down scriptures to avoid offending anyone, I wouldn't want him as a pastor, either. If a pastor was flawless in his family life but taught unsound doctrine, I wouldn't want him as a pastor, either. I'm very picky about pastors.

Got no quarrel with that.

Back to divorce. I believe my 2 divorces are biblical.

Fine with me. Like the Lord said, "according to your faith, be it unto you".

However, I think that even an unbiblical divorce is forgivable if the person repents.
That's the issue for me.

It is the repenting side that we all had a problem with. The others had a problem, I think including yourself, with the fact that it appears to them that I am saying divorce is unforgiveable, and refuse to take back brethren who repented.

My problem with that is that according to the scenario I presented, the couple were told, counselled, and labored with, and they still went on ahead and divorced. Any show of repentance later on will be suspect.
Were they repentant because they got a new partner which is worse than the other ? Were they repentant because the church excluded them and now they want back in ? Or were they truly repentant because they realized that, after all, the elders were right, and they have offended God.

Whatever it is, I believe they ought to be forgiven. And I believe that if they were truly elect children of God, even that wilful sin has been covered.

The problem is that now they are married to other spouses, and no amount of repenting can undo the fact that they are now, in accordance with God's word, living in adultery. How are they going to undo this ?

As for your situation, I did not even know you are divorced. I just wanted you to know that this is nothing personal against you or any of those divorced here in this board.

We are discussing Scriptures and what we believe Scriptures teaches, not judging each other's worth before God.

Obviously, the pastor to which you refer doesn't seem to think he's done anything wrong - which is a self-deception I can't fathom.

Well, that pastor is dead. Whether he is with the Lord or not, I don't know.
But, one day, a year or so after he began a new work, they were on visitation and were in a vehicle negotiating a narrow, climbing road up in the mountain villages.
Their driver miscalculated a curve and the vehicle plunged down a 90 degree 200 feet ravine the bottom of which was a river black with cyanide tailings from a mining camp at the other side of the mountain.

They all died. The driver and his two helpers were not believers and not members of his congregation, and because of his hardheadedness three families were grieving the loss of their loved ones, as well as his family and that of his mistress.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I don't know if you'll laugh with me, but I'm afraid I got a really good laugh out of that one. That's not what the verse means at all. Look at the Greek (or just about any good translation other than KJV, which is an excellent translation, but often misunderstood). It means avoid all evil, wherever and however it appears. Not "avoid appearing evil". If it meant the latter, Jesus would have been a #1 offender (remember how He was accused of being a wine-bibber and spending so much time with sinners?)

Yeah, I guess you're right. But, well, you know, I was dazzled by the fact that, hey, these Americans have to know what they're saying, you know what I mean ?
After all, this guy's Bob Jones U and Georgetown U (wherever and whatever those are. But they gotta be tops), and the other guy's a well-known preacher and missionary among the Bible Baptists.
And I had very few units in Greek back in Bible College and all that jazz, so, I thought, must not be time for me to get ordained according to God's plan.

 

[El_Guero]

He gets out of jail, remarries, and is welcomed back into the church with open arms. He's completely forgiven. After all, what he did was murder and maim. He didn't go so far as to divorce anyone.

You definitely sound orthodox on this!

 

[El_Guero]

However, for those that don't read the pages of a thread - this one is for you. Brother npetreley should be given his entire quote as well as the satirical short version above.

He gets out of jail, remarries, and is welcomed back into the church with open arms. He's completely forgiven. After all, what he did was murder and maim. He didn't go so far as to divorce anyone.

Edit: Note for the humor imparied -- this is a joke. As with many jokes, there's an element of truth in it. As I've said elsewhere, I applied to several Baptist mission groups. I was rejected from all but one simply because there's a checkbox on the application that says [x] divorced. There are no checkboxes on any of these applications for [ ] murdered someone, [ ] former satan worshipper, [ ] <insert egregious sin here>. Apparently they're not concerned about these things, only divorce.

 

[OrovilleTim]

I take it the someone in quotation marks means me ?
I think J.Jump explained that clearly.
The divorce is invalid before the eyes of God. (What God hath joined together, let no man put asunder. [From the lips of Jesus Christ Himself, unless of course that doesn't mean anything.]

It's easy with all this quoting and requoting to lost the original question which is why I brought it up again a couple times. The query was for scriptural support of the position that remarriage after putting away an adulterous wife was forbidden. It was never remarriage after a frivilous divorce.

My issues are as follows:

A.) You are still excluding/ignoring earlier quoted scripture, from the lips of Jesus Christ Himself, allowing for divorce in the case of an adulterous woman? Matt: 19:9 "And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery." Although, you did selectively quote Matthew 19:10, without any context.

B.) You have yet to provide ANY scriptural reference to state that remarriage after putting away an adulterous wife is not allowed, other than the mentioned Matt 19:10 verse, out of context.

In my opinion, your position doesn't hold water as you've not made a proper scriptural defense. I think you've made a statement as to the "church membership" and in an attempt to not have to compromise your statement (which is really of no personal concern to me), you're clutching.

My concern though, was that there may have been scripture expressly forbidding remarriage after putting away a wife for the only allowable reason for divorce as detailed above, and apparantly there is not. End of concerns for me. Run it around all you like, but in the words of Jesus, he gives that out, and nowhere else does he say you shouldn't remarry.

You said "People will justify divorce, and adulterous remarriages, because they want that in their lives, no matter what the Scriptures say." and Jesus said "All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given." I think that is very telling, and shows the wisdom on the scriptures. I accept that you can not receive this, as it wasn't given to you (or Harold Camping.)

----------------------
For reference, here is the whole context of the verses quoted above from Matthey 19:

"9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given."

 

[npetreley]

My concern though, was that there may have been scripture expressly forbidding remarriage after putting away a wife for the only allowable reason for divorce as detailed above, and apparantly there is not. End of concerns for me. Run it around all you like, but in the words of Jesus, he gives that out, and nowhere else does he say you shouldn't remarry.

"9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given."

I agree. I don't know of any scripture that says "you may remarry if....<condition>." However, the clear statement that you commit adultery by remarrying if you put away your wife for any other reason than fornication IMPLIES that you do not commit adultery if you remarry after putting away your wife for reason of fornication. That seems so obvious to me that it doesn't require further explanation.

But I will add for the umpteenth time that if someone divorces for the wrong reason and remarries (and by doing so commits adultery), and then repents of what they did, we are obliged to forgive them, even though they cannot undo the damage at that point. If God promises to forgive those who confess their sins, then I don't see how we can refuse to do so.