Divorce and Remarriage

PTW,

I know theology is the study of God, but people can study God all day long and never know him. We have to be careful that others understand what we are saying. I have also carefully laid out what the Bible says and I have shown how it is applicable in context.

And yes, God is going to bring Israel back, but he is marrying the Church, not Isreal. Where does the Bible teach that he will marry Isreal agian?

And Paul did say that, but he also said that if you do marry, you are not sinning. Did Paul lie?

~Lorelei

 

If your husband is beating you because you are a Christian, then you are directly suffering for Christ's name sake. Consider this:

Matthew 5:10-12
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matthew 5:44
But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.

If your husband is lost, consider this:

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Does anyone remember what Paul said he endured for the sake of the elect?

Btw, according to Paul, in Philippians 1:29, suffering is a gift:

For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.

 

I have said more than once that such a guy needs a beating. It is well withing God's revealed will that the government was established to punish the wicked (Rom. 13).

Answer me this if you would:

why is it that whenever divorce is brought up that the typical - O.J. killed Nicole - lines pop up. I don't know anyone who says that the wife should be brutally manhandled because of a bad husband?

How many times do I have to say this? Can we move on in the discussion?

 

No. I just disagree with your interpretation. The passage you cited can be interpreted in more than one way when you take it at face value. When you compare what the rest of Scripture has to say though, your interpretation does not stand up.

 

PTW,

We can't move on because you brought it up. You insinuated to an abused woman that she was suffering for righteousness sake! That is encouraging an abused person to stay in that situation making them think it somehow glorifies God because they are suffering for righteousness sake! No, I won't move on! That is disgusting!

Just like the Pharisees, your adamant stance to stand by the law no matter what is doing more harm than good. Remember, our God desires mercy, not sacrifice.

Jesus came to fulfill the law, not bring a new one.

~Lorelei

 

Hosea 2:14-20

14"Therefore, behold, I will allure her, will bring her into the wilderness, and speak comfort to her.
15 I will give her vineyards from there, and the Valley of Achor as a door of hope; she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth, as in the day when she came up from the land of Egypt.
16 "And it shall be, in that day," says the LORD, "That you will call Me "My Husband,' and no longer call Me "My Master,'
17 For I will take from her mouth the names of the Baals, and they shall be remembered by their name no more.
18 In that day I will make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, with the birds of the air, and with the creeping things of the ground. Bow and sword of battle I will shatter from the earth, to make them lie down safely.
19 "I will betroth you to Me forever; yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and justice, in loving kindness and mercy;
20 I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness, and you shall know the LORD.

 

Paul also utitlized his rights as a Roman citizen when he was imprisoned.

Suffering when there is no alternative is different than when there is.

~Lorelei

[ December 06, 2002, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

PTW,

So Isreal will come back to the Lord without accepting and acknowledging Christ and becoming part of the church?

~Lorelei

 

Matthew 5:10-12
Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matthew 5:44
But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you.

I am a Pharisee because I posted the words of Christ?

If you read everyone of my posts and still come to the conclusion that I advocate a wife getting beating because of a bad husband, you do not understand my posts. I have said plenty of times that I am against it.

However, if you are being persecuted for being a Christian, you are doing it for Christ's sake. Read the above passages again. Then read it again. Read them until the words of Christ, which were anti-pharisee, sink into your head and change your view of suffering, righteousness, and obedience.

Our life is worth 2 seconds in eternity. Present suffering is not to be compared to future glory. That wife might just be the one who wins her husband becuase she is willing to endure him and loves him inspite of being persecuted.

I am talking about the ones who suffer BECAUSE SHE IS A CHRISTIAN.

 

According to Paul in Romans 11, Israel will "look on him whom they have pierced and mourn..."

They will embrace their Messiah, one day.

Present Israel is just as idolatrous as ever. One day, she won't be. God will remove the names of idols from her lips.

 

I have said as much. If I had ever caught my dad abusing my mom (he did), I would have called 911 in a heart beat. He did not abuse her because she was a Christian.

 

So, are you saying if the Christian wife is murdered by the unbelieving abusive spouse, she is a martyr for Christ? That would be the logical conclusion to draw from your opinion of this.

Also, if you counsel such a woman to stay in this escalating abusive marriage, are you not accessory to murder?

Not trying to be trite, just wondering.

 

PTW,

An abusive husband will beat you up if you are a Christian and if you are not. That is NOT suffering for righteousness sake! Even if they were beating you for that, you have a right to leave them and get away from it!

Look what Paul said when he was about to get beat

It isn't lawful, at least in my country, for a man to beat their wife. She has every right to get out of that situation. If we were supposed to always allow the suffering, why did Paul seek to have him stop in accordance with a secular law?

You don't know what it is to suffer for righteousness sake, you have never suffered at all, at least not physically. We as Americans are so pampered we think we know it all, well in some countries people really are suffering for righteousness sake, why don't you move there and get some of that longed for suffering yourself. At least then it would really be suffering for spreading the gospel instead of spreading lies.

Yes, you are blessed if you suffer for Christ, but we don't have to suffer needlessly. We don't seek it out and take it, just because it's suffering. My Christ came to give us life and give it more abundantly.

You need to take the legalism out. You keep quoting Chapter 5, why don't you quote it and tell the man what he MUST do. He is beating the wife, have his hand cut off!

I am leaving this discussion. I will have no part in giving you a reason to keep encouraging women to be beaten.

~Lorelei

 

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

3. I WILL NEVER counsel such a woman to stay in this escalating abusive marriage. Therefore, I could not be an accessory to murder. If I knew about it, I would dial 911 for her.

Does everybody understand number 3? Lorelei, did you read that? Have you read the multiple posts where I have said the SAME thing? Apparently not. Apparently, you and hrhema only read half the posts and then go off on it.

 

1. Agreed. I have said that until I don't want to say it again.

2. Ditto.

3. I am not sadistic and I do not enjoy suffering. I am saying that present suffering can be endured through grace. Grace can overcome anything, even abuse.

4. The Scripture is not full of lies. I posted Scripture and the interpretation. If you don't want to go where Scripture will take you, why have this discussion?

5. Definitely.

6. Mine too. I would say he is the same person. Also, the abundant life includes the grace to endure suffering (Phil.1:29).

7. Legalism is adding works to faith in regards to justification or sanctification. Legalism is not obedience and vice versa, ever. The pharisees were not obedient to the Law. They created their own.

8. I would personally do more to such a man.

9. I am sorry to hear that. I have tried to answer each question and objection fairly and according to the Scripture. I thought you brought up some areas that need to be discussed.

10. I know women that have been beaten and I HATE it. Do you really think my heart is ice? That was an extremely low blow.

 

If a man confronts another man, known for his physical violence, and aggravates him by preaching the gospel of peace, and he gets busted in the beak, is he suffering for Christ, or just performing a foolish mission?

There are times when the word "suffering" is not a spiritual thing or biblical thing, but just plain foolishness.

If that same man is standing on the street corner and preaching the same gospel, and a bystander picks up a stone and throws it at the preacher, then one might deem him to be suffering for Christ's sake.

The woman who remains in a verbally abusive home and quietly lives her life without provocation is suffering for Christ's sake. The woman who remains in a physically abusive home, is taking no thought for her own body and life, and suffering needlessly for societal reasons.

I appreciate that verbal abuse is a terrible thing, and I do not wish to lower its affects. The story is just a means of comparison.

One in five women who return to a physically abusive home end up dead. Sadly, some women in abusive relationships develop a psychological barrier to leaving; non-existant self-esteem is often the reason, but we must do all we can to encourage, yea to exhort, such women to leave.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Thank you jim1999. I support a Women's Shelter here in my county. I cannot talk about paticulars...but 1 week in the shelter with these women might make someone have a change of heart.

Look at Martha. Use her as an example. How many did she lay with, and Jesus forgave her, and she followed after him forever.

Look at the Man in the Old Testement who after his son died, His widow pretended to be the harlot, and the Father of the dead Son laid with her. Later he saw what he had done was wrong and repented. For she was more righteous than him. And God was with him.

Sherrie

 

1. You did not interact with the Scripture. You simply chose to attack what I said was the target audience (which wasn't even the strength of my point).

2. Paul dealt with virgins, married, those who might be thinking about divorce, abandonment, and remarriage.

3. That was not the main point. That was background that does not prove anything by itself. It makes sense in light of the INTERPRETATION which must always be primary.

4. I did not argue such a position. Perhaps you could read my posts and then comment.

5. It was allowed due to the hard hearts of those under the direction of Moses. That is exactly what Jesus said in Matthew 19. Also, what right do Christians have for having a hard heart.

6. Since we do not live under the law but grace, we have the power to live in obedience to Christ and his word. Thank you for making my point.

hrhema, until you actually interact with my interpretations of the texts, you shouldn't just post half-truths about my posts.

Have a nice day.

 

The Bible does not say that Matthew was directing his writings to the Jews only and Luke to the Gentiles. This is all supposition.

Very good. Luke's Gospel was a letter written to one specific person, a colleague of Luke, who like him, was probably in the medical profession. It was not intended by the author to be read by a broad audience.

 

I don't believe I read half your posts PTW. I am horrified by you telling people to just continue in the relationship and forgive and forgive and forgive a person cheating on you. The time will come as others and I have said to you when those words will come back to haunt you. It may not be in your marriage itself but it sure could happen to one of your children. I am not wishing that but you are a person that has not gone through this and you are standing in judgement against those who have. You have taken scripture and ignored what it really says so you can make a reputation for yourself that you are unmoveable.

I forgave my first wife when she cheated on me and had a miscarriage and denied to me that she was pregnant but her doctor told me the truth. I had been sick and in the hospital and two urologists told us both that I was infertile for a while and it could be a year or more before she could become pregnant by me. No way could it have been my baby.

I forgave her when she moved out of our house to go take care of her mother who became paralyzed because her mom refused to move in with us. We lived apart for four years and I did not end the marriage.

I did not end the marriage when cheated on me with the first woman. I did not end the marriage even when she went to the second one and I stayed in the marriage when she started having a continuous affair with a third from Canada and she used $38,000 of her elderly moms money to fly her lesbian lover back and forth from Canada paying all her expenses. She charged over $100,000 on her moms credit cards. I tolerated that for over a year. I prayed and I sought God and let me tell you I have a adopted sister named Beverly that I had not saw in years and she called and after I got off the phone with me a voice just as clear as a bell said YOur new wife will be named Beverly. I thought I was nuts because I had not filed for divorce. I was trying to keep my marriage together. 6 months later my first wife told me she wanted to live the gay lifestyle and wanted a divorce so I gave it to her. Months later I met a woman and guess what her name was,"Beverly>"

So don't sit and say people need to learn to forgive. You don't know what a person has forgiven or not. You can come up with all kinds of scenarios to prove your point but Jesus explicitly said if a person divorces and remarries EXCEPT FOR FORNICATION, then adultery happens.