Divorce.... is it endorsement if you...?

[Magnetic Poles]

Thankful, once again, I applaud your stance. There is no way I care what anyone thinks, I will help my kids to the best of my ability. I am not implying Diane, that you are not, but before I dig my heels in hard and fast, I would try compassion and you may just be the one to talk some sense into her. You can always change things later, but a little time away from the situation may help save the marriage. There are also little ones involved, so their welfare is paramount.

In the end, sending her packing may be best, but it should not be the first step. Remember, you may not know everything that goes on in her home. No one ever knows what another's marriage is really like.

 

[dianetavegia]

Originally posted by Magnetic Poles:
In the end, sending her packing may be best, but it should not be the first step. Remember, you may not know everything that goes on in her home. No one ever knows what another's marriage is really like.

MP, she lives 1,200 miles away from us and has NEVER lived here. She also has NOT expressed any interest in moving here. This is hypothetical only.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

OK, Diane, thanks for the clarification. My prayers and hopes go out to your family in this situation.

 

[Jim1999]

In my opinion, the decision was made before posting here, End of discussion. Get on with whatever you decided beforehand.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[dianetavegia]

As always Jim1999

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dianetavegia:
And giving them an 'easy place' to go is not enabling sin? What are the children being taught?

If you don't, someone else will. At least if they go to your place, you'll have a chance to encourage them to have a more biblical view of marriage.

Not letting them stay at your place is being concerned about how you look to others. Letting them stay at your place is being concerned about them. </font>[/QUOTE]If you think this is showing concern, it is wrongheaded and misdirected. In effect, you are giving them an out and making it easy for them to sin. Many marriages have ended when mommy or someone else said, “Oh, the old mean thing, come on back home and we’ll take care of you.”

One has to consider what is the person’s greatest good—having a temporal way out (i.e. a roof over their head) or being in fellowship with God. This person is just seeking temporary relief from a difficult situation. Life is hard. People must learn to deal with their problems, not run away from them. Running away and sinning is much worse.

If a person leaves his or her spouse without Biblical justification, he or she is sinning against God. We cannot condone sin by making it easier for others to sin. In so doing, we become partaker in the person’s sin and God holds us accountable. This is not love except for self-love because it is the easiest thing for self to do.

True Biblical love is to confront sin. It may mean even saying to a son or daughter, “NO, you can’t come back home because you are unhappy or angry. You made a lifetime vow before God and to break your covenant is sin!” This is love because you desire the person’s best interest—i.e. to obey God and not sin. God chastens sin in His children (cf. Hebrews 12:1-13). Do you want to see that person sin and bring sickness, sorrow, hardship, and trial into his or her life?

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

[ Yes, of course. Why is that mutually exclusive from helping them during this time? It seems you have set up a false dichotomy in saying "we can give them a place to live or we can encourage to the seek counseling and work out their troubles." Why not do both?

No, this is not a false dichotomy. To do both is rather like supplying the drunk with liquor while you are counseling him about his alcohol problem. More poignantly, it is like the mother who rented a hotel room and bought condoms on prom night for her daughter and boyfriend because she thought they were going to do it anyway. She didn’t want them doing it in the backseat of a car on a lonely road without proper protection.

When you provide the place to stay, you have in fact approved the act of separation. By refusing to offer help, you are backing up your words with actions. One of the problems with our sentimental Christianity today is that our talk doesn’t match up with our actions. All the fancy talk and sappy words in the world won’t change reality.

Your implicit reasoning here is that the ends justify the means. To aid in the separation destroys all credibility in counseling later—your counseling becomes just so many nice words. This is not Biblical love—it is sentimental slop.

Let’s be real. The Bible makes it clear that it is God’s will for the couple to forgive, reconcile, and live together in peace as man and wife. BTW, it is absolutely wrongheaded to think a cooling off period may be needed. Separation just exacerbates the problems, not resolve them. It is the beginning of a habit pattern of running away from adversity. People need to learn how to stay in place and resolve their problems, not run away.

God may use the hardships that one encounters in leaving home to chasten them. They may be convicted and repent of their sin. Giving them a place to stay makes their sin comfortable and easy. From a Biblical view, their spiritual welfare is far more important than their temporal comfort.

 

[HeDied4U]

quoted by paidagogos...

People must learn to deal with their problems, not run away from them.Running away and sinning is much worse.

Unfortunately, that's all some people know how to do. Some people just aren't equiped to handle all that life throws at them, so they take the "easy out" and run from their problems.

While it's true that running away never solved anything, sometimes, if one doesn't have the "tools" necessary to solve problems, then the easy out is, in their eyes, their only road.
Granted, it's not the right road, but it may be the only road that they can see before them.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Magnetic Poles:
Thankful, once again, I applaud your stance. There is no way I care what anyone thinks, I will help my kids to the best of my ability.

Do you care what God thinks? Absolute statements are many times hard to live up to.

I am not implying Diane, that you are not, but before I dig my heels in hard and fast, I would try compassion and you may just be the one to talk some sense into her. You can always change things later, but a little time away from the situation may help save the marriage. There are also little ones involved, so their welfare is paramount.

We all naturally want to help and stand by our kids. However, this is emotion and sentiment speaking. What we want to do many times is the worse thing. It is hard but we should let our kids learn to face the natural consequences of their own actions. Otherwise, we are buying trouble for them down the road. We must disciple ourselves to do what’s right rather than what our emotions want to do.

Furthermore, recommending separation is very bad advice. We must be careful and be sure that we know what we’re talking about before giving advice. Are you a Biblical counselor? Reconciliation after separation has a very poor track record. Short-term separation is usually just the prelude to permanent separation down the road. People must learn to stay together and work out their problems by facing them squarely. This is the hope of saving the marriage. Separation is giving in and running away from the problem.

Finally, children never fare well in divorce. Regardless of politically correct studies to the contrary, children always suffer a sense of rejection, sorrow, and loss during divorce. They have a hard time getting their values re-oriented and a balanced view of life. Their world is turned upside down. However, children are no more important as persons than the adults. Their spiritual well-being and fellowship with God is at stake. The adults are living under the possibility of God’s chastening. Everyone is important. BTW, you can’t save the marriage by appealing to the kids’ interests. The marriage must be based on Biblical principles and a right relationship with God.

In the end, sending her packing may be best, but it should not be the first step. Remember, you may not know everything that goes on in her home. No one ever knows what another's marriage is really like.

No, a firm refusal with compassionate reasoning from the first is best. If you hold off, you are changing horses midstream. This doesn’t make sense to the other party. You can’t hedge your bets here. If you accept them and then reject them, they’ll have a reason to be bitter and angry with you. One must discern and do the right thing from the start. People can respect a consistent stand in the long run but they always see a wishy-washy position as hypocritical and arbitrary—they’re right too.

No, we never know what another’s marriage is like. Regardless, we must follow Biblical teaching. William Carey lived for years with an insane wife under very adverse conditions while he was struggling to do his mission work in India. Yet, he remained faithful to the marriage until her death. Does God expect any less of us? It really depends on whether our priority is pleasing God or pleasing self.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by HeDied4U:
quoted by paidagogos...

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> People must learn to deal with their problems, not run away from them.Running away and sinning is much worse.

Unfortunately, that's all some people know how to do. Some people just aren't equiped to handle all that life throws at them, so they take the "easy out" and run from their problems.

While it's true that running away never solved anything, sometimes, if one doesn't have the "tools" necessary to solve problems, then the easy out is, in their eyes, their only road.
Granted, it's not the right road, but it may be the only road that they can see before them. </font>[/QUOTE]Then we must help them. The Bible does have the answers to these problems. God's Word gives HOPE! There is hope when we confront the problems with Biblical solutions.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Shiloh:
an unbiblical divorce??? What is a "nonbiblical divorce"? Are you telling us that there is a Biblical divorce?

Shiloh, I catch a lot of hatred for being totally anti divorce. The only reason I can find for divorce is an unrepentant lifestyle of adultery where the offender leaves and divorces the innocent spouse.

This person watched Jim and I live a very strong and Biblical marriage (35 years this fall) so I don't know what else would change her mind.

In this situation, no one has asked to 'come home'. There is no desire to leave the area where they live. This person would not live up to our rules in our home. My question is hypothetical under these circumstances.

If we had enabled her, this daughter would have left her husband after 2 weeks of marriage. She was already 6 months pregnant by then.

I know it sounds harsh, but a wife belongs with her husband. This husband (nor his family) want them to divorce and I think our not showing support for her decision will give her time for this thought to pass. Her hubby will find another job soon. It's only been a month and one day.I spoke with him today because it's our granddaughter's 2nd birthday and he said he's doing everything he can to win her back.

His parents are heartbroken and are babysitting so she can have extra 'me' time, etc.

Again, Shiloh, no divorce except in the case of a repeated and unrepentant lifestyle of adultery. If you do a search, you'll find how many people really attack me for this stance. </font>[/QUOTE]May God bless you and honor your decision. May our Lord grant you grace and strength to see this through. It may be hard for now but I believe that the Lord will provide sufficient grace. Stand firm.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Thankful:
I would let my daughter or son live with me anytime and I would not care what message it sent to the church or community other than I love my children.

Maybe this person just needs her "mom" for awhile.

My Mother and Dad always said that they would not let us move back home after we were married and none of us tried, but I know that they would have let us on a temporary basis.

Perhaps you could let this family stay with you for a few weeks. This would be a chance to play with the children. She may not be telling you the details of why she wants a separation or a divorce. She may just need her you.

You could let her come for a specified time.

Absence does make the heart grow fonder. She may just need to realize how special her marriage really is.

I know you will make the right decision for your family.

Be careful of the advice you give because it makes you party to the situation. If someone follows your poor advice, then you are partially responsible for the outcome. Do you want this responsibility? Without meaning to be harsh or rude, I must say that your advice is horrible. I understand your emotion and sentiment but you are not considering what is right or wrong according to Scripture--it's all about what you feel. You can't trust feelings and emotions. We must search the Scriptures and find God's direction. After all, I believe that in God's Word He has "given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness....(II Peter 2:3). The Bible is sufficient if we will search it for the answers.

BTW, letting the offspring live with mommie for a little while just doesn't work. Check the statistics. Furthermore, absence does not make the heart grow fonder in an estranged marriage; it makes it grow more distant. Absence only makes the heart fonder when separated by circumstance, not by choice.

Quite candidly, your advice is misdirected, wrongheaded, and horrible. If taken, it may result in awful consequences that dishonor God. There is no Scriptural basis for your advice; rather it is opposed to the Scriptural admonition: "Let not the wife depart from her husband (I Corinthians 7:10)."

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by BillyMac:
Diane I'd hate to think that you'd turn family away regardless of the conditions. There may be more there than you are being told about. I should think that showing love by opening your home to them would be the Christian charity thing to do. Also consider that not having them there underfoot means that conditions elsewhere for them might not be so safe or so loving. And they could not be instructed as well as to how to live a Christian life.

If it's unbearable though, I can understand your concern. Perhaps you could see to it that the mother gets some Christian counseling while staying with you. An unbiased ear from a pastor of Christian counselor might be the thing.

You said: "Diane I'd hate to think that you'd turn family away regardless of the conditions."

Where is your Christian compassion for Diane? How can you add to her burden with innuendo that she is doing the wrong thing. You added a personal flavor by saying, "Diane, I'd hate to think...."

IMHO, Diane would be doing the most loving and godly thing, although very hard for her, by refusing to help this loved one sin against God. Sinning would break the loved one's fellowship with God and possibly would bring chastisement (see Hebrews 12).

You are considering the temporal view of personal sentiment over the eternal view of what's right in God's sight.

Methinks, you are like Job's friends. Let's show a feeling and compassion for Diane.

 

[Thankful]

Let's not forget compassion, love, responsibility, and caring. Fortunately,
My children have never wanted to return
home, but there are many things to consider.
Yes, we consider what God thinks. Yes, we seek
His Will.

Many times when a person finds himself/herself in a difficult situation, if that person can seek guidance from parents, it will give them a different perspective and they may see how to resolve their problems or their discontent.

I am against divorce and I believe when one makes a commitment to their spouse then all problems should be worked out together, but counsel or guidance from another person may save a marriage.

While I would never encourage my children to seek separation or divorce and I would discourage them from moving home, I might consider a short visit so that I could lend a sympathetic ear. I'm not saying that I would take sides. I certainly would not tell them that they are sinning, that they are taking the easy way out, that they are not tough enough to face life, this would just add to their problems.

I believe one can be compassionate without compromising their beliefs and ideals.

I do believe in tough love, but my home is always open to my children as a refuge.

Since the husband is out of a job, perhaps the husband, wife and children could visit and be counseled by loving parents.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Gold Dragon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dianetavegia:
And giving them an 'easy place' to go is not enabling sin? What are the children being taught?

If you don't, someone else will. At least if they go to your place, you'll have a chance to encourage them to have a more biblical view of marriage.

Not letting them stay at your place is being concerned about how you look to others. Letting them stay at your place is being concerned about them. </font>[/QUOTE]Yeah, I’m thinking of opening a Christian bar and strip club where I’ll have the opportunity to hand out tracts and witness to drunks and sex addicts. If I don’t sell them the booze and provide the adult entertainment, then someone else will. At least I’ll have the chance to witness to them. What do you think?

Furthermore, I am pretty dismayed with your psychoanalysis of Diane. Are you a mind reader? You said: “Not letting them stay at your place is being concerned about how you look to others.” How can you accuse her of thinking only of herself in this matter? You don’t know motivates her other than what she has told you. I accept that she has Biblical convictions and she is following her convictions. She is more concerned about doing right and pleasing God than doing what is easy. Shame on you for intimating otherwise!

A retraction and an apology would be in order.

 

[Thankful]

I think we are all showing compassion for Diane by trying to give her our different opinions. If we didn't care, we would ignore the situation.

Perhaps I was not clear. All I have suggested is let her child come for a visit. A visit by a child does not dishonor God.

 

[Gayla]

Originally posted by paidagogos:
Yeah, I’m thinking of opening a Christian bar and strip club where I’ll have the opportunity to hand out tracts and witness to drunks and sex addicts. If I don’t sell them the booze and provide the adult entertainment, then someone else will. At least I’ll have the chance to witness to them. What do you think?

Furthermore, I am pretty dismayed with your psychoanalysis of Diane. Are you a mind reader? You said: “Not letting them stay at your place is being concerned about how you look to others.” How can you accuse her of thinking only of herself in this matter? You don’t know motivates her other than what she has told you. I accept that she has Biblical convictions and she is following her convictions. She is more concerned about doing right and pleasing God than doing what is easy. Shame on you for intimating otherwise!

A retraction and an apology would be in order. [/QB]

from Gold Dragon or paidagogos?


I agree divorce is wrong and don't know what I would do in this situation, but I think you're being a bit harsh.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Thankful:
I think we are all showing compassion for Diane by trying to give her our different opinions. If we didn't care, we would ignore the situation.

Perhaps I was not clear. All I have suggested is let her child come for a visit. A visit by a child does not dishonor God.

A visit to Mom's and Dad's during a marital crisis may well break up the marriage. At this point, we want to prop up the marriage until the problems can be addressed and resolved Biblically. Every human means available must be used to temporally hold things together until the relationship can be stabilized.

The goal is not immediate relief but it is the long-term resolution of the problems plaguing this marriage. Coming home and finding relief will be so attractive that the daughter will not want to go back and face the problems. Can’t you see the obvious? This is a sure prescription for divorce. Such a divorce would dishonor God. God give us sense and discernment and He expects us to use them, I believe.

Diane is right. Her convictions are sound and Biblical. She is doing right by standing firm. What she needs is our encouragement and prayers. She doesn’t need to be told that she is doing it for selfish reasons as one amateur psychoanalyst did.

Let’s pray for Diane and encourage her in the Lord. She has made her decision according to her convictions and needs compassion, kindness, and thoughtfulness.

 

[Karen]

Originally posted by paidagogos:

.....Coming home and finding relief will be so attractive that the daughter will not want to go back and face the problems.

Can’t you see the obvious? This is a sure prescription for divorce.......
Diane is right. Her convictions are sound and Biblical. She is doing right by standing firm. What she needs is our encouragement and prayers. She doesn’t need to be told that she is doing it for selfish reasons as one amateur psychoanalyst did.

Let’s pray for Diane and encourage her in the Lord. She has made her decision according to her convictions and needs compassion, kindness, and thoughtfulness. [/b]

Dear paidagogos,

Diane has indeed made her decision according to her convictions. She knows the individual situation far better than we do. She does need compassion and prayer.

She did ask for opinions, though. And she knows this is a controversial topic.
Based on the facts presented, I would disagree with Diane's theoretical handling.
I am against divorce, but allowing grown children to come for a visit or a lengthy stay is not condoning divorce.
Sometimes too much attention is paid to wondering what church members will think. I believe that members of my church would not presume Diane was approving of or endorsing divorce. We would presume she was trying to counsel with and help her child and grandchildren.

I would consider it a great opportunity to have positive impact on grandchildren. Though I would establish ground rules. I would not just be the full-time babysitter while the grown child was never home. I would worry a lot about what situation the grandchildren would be in if they were not in my home. And they would actually be of greater concern to me than the grown child.

I don't see what you think is obvious, paidagogos. And I don't see that living in a cramped household short or longterm with other peoples' expectations would be so appealing.

It partly comes down to what is the difference between helping and counseling a person in a problem and enabling that person in sin.
Sometimes you just have to pray and examine the individual facts. Then do what you think is right regardless of somebody gossiping or not at church.

Karen

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by paidagogos:
Furthermore, I am pretty dismayed with your psychoanalysis of Diane. Are you a mind reader? You said: “Not letting them stay at your place is being concerned about how you look to others.” How can you accuse her of thinking only of herself in this matter?

Just for the record, Diane herself said By allowing a woman, leaving her husband for no good reason to come and live in our home would be sending the message to our 10 year old and our church that we think divorce is okay . So it is clear she is concerned with what others think.

She is more concerned about doing right and pleasing God than doing what is easy. Shame on you for intimating otherwise!

[/qb]After accusing someone else of psychoanalying, you have done just that (in an ironic twist of having a double standard). But I don't think the issue here is Diane's concern or desire. It was whether or not this particular act is truly in line with that desire, or is it not.

She may be right, she may be wrong, but her desire doesn't determine that.

A retraction and an apology would be in order. [/QB][/QUOTE]