Divorce.... is it endorsement if you...?

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by paidagogos:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

[ Yes, of course. Why is that mutually exclusive from helping them during this time? It seems you have set up a false dichotomy in saying "we can give them a place to live or we can encourage to the seek counseling and work out their troubles." Why not do both?

No, this is not a false dichotomy. To do both is rather like supplying the drunk with liquor while you are counseling him about his alcohol problem. More poignantly, it is like the mother who rented a hotel room and bought condoms on prom night for her daughter and boyfriend because she thought they were going to do it anyway. She didn’t want them doing it in the backseat of a car on a lonely road without proper protection.</font>

No, not in anyway whatsoever. You are comparing apples to oranges.

When you provide the place to stay, you have in fact approved the act of separation. By refusing to offer help, you are backing up your words with actions. One of the problems with our sentimental Christianity today is that our talk doesn’t match up with our actions. All the fancy talk and sappy words in the world won’t change reality.

Yes, those words about loving people and helping them in need fall on deaf ears when we refuse to actually do it. Providing a place to stay isn't approving the act of separation. Only the worst kind of thinking can make such a broadbrush statement. It may in fact be true if you provide a long term place.

Your implicit reasoning here is that the ends justify the means. To aid in the separation destroys all credibility in counseling later—your counseling becomes just so many nice words. This is not Biblical love—it is sentimental slop.

Pragmatism isn't always wrong, especially when it is right. Acts of love and concern include providing care and biblical counseling.

Let’s be real. The Bible makes it clear that it is God’s will for the couple to forgive, reconcile, and live together in peace as man and wife.

No one here disputes that, so far as I have seen. In fact, I have told women married to serial adulterers that they do not have grounds for divorce in their present states. I can guarantee you that there is no one here that is stronger on marriage than I am.

BTW, it is absolutely wrongheaded to think a cooling off period may be needed. Separation just exacerbates the problems, not resolve them. It is the beginning of a habit pattern of running away from adversity. People need to learn how to stay in place and resolve their problems, not run away.

Not always true. Separation does sometimes serve a legitimate purpose in biblical repentance and change. And sometimes it is necessary for personal safety. I encouraged a woman to leave her husband because of physical violence and threats to her and hte kids from an abusive alcoholic husband. It would have been a dereliction of God-given duty to encourage her not to separate.

I am not saying this situation is one where separation is right. Quite honestly, no one here knows enough to know that. Quite frankly, in this case, Dianne is probably correct. This woman would be travelling 1200 miles. That is not good.

Giving them a place to stay makes their sin comfortable and easy.

Only if you don't tell them the truth about their situation and what they should be doing.

From a Biblical view, their spiritual welfare is far more important than their temporal comfort.

This is certainly true. But if you cut off contact, you will have no input on their spiritual welfare.

Again, I am not saying Dianne is doing the wrong thing here. She probably isn't. But your broad brush strokes are certainly not giving an accurate picture of what is involved in marital counseling and solving marital problems. We simply need to point out that there is much more to it than what you have put forth here.

 

[PJ]

Diane, is this young lady who hypothetically wants to leave her husband a believer? Is her husband a believer? Is her history reflective of similar situations? Do they have children?

Please bear with me if I'm asking questions answered in earlier posts. I pop in and out on break and lunchhour and only have time to skim everyone's posts ...

PJ

 

[TexasSky]

Diane and I tend to be older than a lot of posters on these boards (I hope you don't mind me saying that Diane.) I believe we are both old enough to have "before" and "after" periods of history to look at.

Certainly, there were times in the history of our country when "stay married" caused problems. Where lives were in danger or where the emotional toil on children was so great that leaving might have been better, but people stayed because you stayed.

Those were, I believe, rare.

When I was young, there was really no, "His family, my family," once you married. You WERE the family. Those vows were stronger than blood ties. You looked at divorcing your spouse as seriously as you looked at disowning a child, because that was what divorce was, disowning a relative.

Then, around the 1980's, divorce became something that was easy. If life was hard, you blamed your spouse and moved out. I was shocked when friends said, "I'm leaving my spouse," and I asked why? I expected, "He's drinking," or "He cheated," or "He beats the kids." Instead I got, "He lost his job, and I can't handle that kind of stress?" (Get a job yourself then!) "He doesn't pay enough attention to me." (This from a woman whose husband, in an effort to make her happy, flew me across country and moved into a spare room so she could have a week with her best friend like "the old days." He took us out to eat, sent her flowers, cooked for us, and the whole time insisted that it be "our" day, as his gift to her because she kept talking about how she missed me.)

We don't view marriage as a part of life in today's society any more. While it "feels" good, we are all excited about it. When it "feels bad," we blame our spouses and try to cut free of them. Spouses are FAMILY. With all their flaws.

I remember hearing my grandparents share the story of some of the worst moments they shared as a couple. Their home burning, their eldest child dieing before them, bankruptcy..... and I asked how they survived. I will NEVER forget my grandmother's words.

When times were hard, we were angry and bitter at one another, and we did want out sometimes, but we were so busy trying to survive we couldn't seriously think about getting out. Then, when the rough times were over, we looked around and realized that this person standing beside us was the one who stood with us through that rough time. We could count on them. No matter how bitter or angry we were, we'd made it through it together. You don't WANT to leave someone who is willing to make it through the hard times with you like that. That's the kind of love everyone wants, and most people don't wait for because you have to have those hard times to appreciate that kind of love.

They were married almost 60 years when my grandmother passed. My grandfather kissed her forehead at the funeral and said, 'Bye, bye baby girl. Wait for me.'.

If we let people run to us during the really difficult times because running is easy, we're cheating them in the end.

Looking back at the good years of my marriage, I can say, without any doubt, that the best years of my marriage were some of the hardest years of my life financially and worldly. What made them good years in the marriage was that we WERE a team.

Don't make it too easy.

Love your loved ones. If they come home, let em stay a day or maybe two, but send them home again to THEIR home. Make it clear that their family IS their spouse.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Is it sin to show compassion for the sinner?

Questions like these must be answered individually and yes it does count to a certain extent, what other people perceive. We don't want other to stumble in thier walk by what we do in ours.

However, what others think shouldn't be our primary concern. Our primary concern should be what God thinks. Our next concern should be whether or not our decision will bring the person closer to the Lord or push them further away. After those two things are answered we should consider how those watching will respond. Only those close to the actual facts of the situation have a need to know. In this case, Diane must consider Nick's feelings and future spiritual growth. Then when those are answered, we won't be so concerned with what the busybodies think as we will already have an answer.

We all have these decisions to make. When I hug my gay cousin in public, am I expressing my love for him or am I condoning his sin? My children realize that what he is doing is wrong. They also realize that the reaction of our extended family has done much to push him further and further from the Lord. If we do the same as them and reject him, are we helping or hurting the cause of Christ in his life? (however, as of yet he hasn't been invited to my house. My children are young and unable to make the distinction between loving and accepting, so where a hug is love I still believe they would think of a home visit as acceptance of his lifestyle)

As I said, each situation must be treated individually.

 

[Jeffrey H]

If someone in your family was planning to divorce their spouse for a non Biblical reason, would you open your home to them or would that be an endorsement and enabling of an unbiblical divorce?

Would that make you a party to their sin?

I'm late into this...

I can't say if I would be sinning, but I would certaninly would be "enabling" the situation. Our kids must grow up and while I would not abandon my own children, they must take responsibility for their decisions and accept the consequences that come with them.

 

[dianetavegia]

Okay, this has gotten pretty confusing since many haven't read all the posts. Here's the details in a nutshell, with more than I had planned to share.

Our 30 year old daughter lives 1,200 miles from us and has a GREAT paying, full time job. She also is very active in a community theatre there and does NOT want to come here. Georgia was never her home. She lives where she grew up.

She married a non practicing Catholic when she was over 5 months pregnant, 5 years ago this month. They have another child who turned 2 yesterday. They have NEVER been in church since their full Catholic mass wedding.

Her hubby lost his job 31 days ago through no fault of his own. He is only seeking a 'like' job which angers our daughter. He is doing the Mr. Mom thing tho with the kids being fed, bathed, taken to the park, house cleaned, etc. as well as job searching. His parents have REALLY helped too. They live 5 mins. away. The local Catholic church has offered counseling. A local Baptist church has offered to help also.

Our daughter was 'saved' at a young age and baptized on her 21st birthday. Do I think she's saved? No. Do I know her heart? No. There are many, many other things I could mention here but they are not important to this discussion.

We have encouraged son in law to seek a job down south in his industry even to the point of sending out resumes and tapes for him. Daughter can transfer easily with her company. He would gladly do so and we've offered that they could live with us. I'd keep the children for free and they could save to buy a home. He wants to save the marriage but since she's gone to work and gotten her own car, she's decided she doesn't 'need him'. Their lease is up in Oct. and she thinks this would be a great time to just end the marriage.

Remember, too, that our 10 year old son is the child we legally adopted from our daughter when he was 10 months old when she gave him up for adoption. She was 19. She had deserted him long before that.

My question was a 'what if' in my own mind since the locality doesn't fit. Also, my 10 year old has wondered out loud if daughter would be sending me his half sisters to raise since she didn't raise him.

Personal opinion, I think I would be sending a message to our 10 year old Nicholas that we encouraged or endorsed the divorce if we did live locally and took in our daughter instead of encouraging them to seek counseling.

 

[PJ]

Okay, I went back and read previous posts and have a better understanding of the topic. And thank you, Diane, for the clarity in your most current post.

Every case is different, but I do understand your take on this Diane. No matter the angle, it's a sticky situation. I will make this a matter of prayer ...

PJ

[ May 31, 2005, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: PJ ]

 

[FrankBetz]

Wow! It seems Jesus would allow that person the grace to acknowledge their sin and the space in time to repent.

I would be most concerned in seeking reconciliation, divorce NEVER being the answer. Divorce is ONLY due to hardness of heart.

According to O.T.Law, divorce opens the door for the sin of adultery in ALL situations, being that the Original language does not permit remarriage, but warns that a divorced person, for what ever the reason, commits sin by being remarried.

Of course this is always am EMOTIONAL discussion, and I am sure the emotional crowd will soon reply, but God's Law is not based on emotions, but holiness, righteousness, and is above all man could possibly even think. It's pure. Man is impure. Man's emotions are reactions to situations, most of which God would never have us involved, divorce and remarriage are against God's Law. They are against the ways of peace and purity, they are against God. But God is not against people, only against their sin, not condoning sin, but having compassion on the sinner.

So to answer the question? Certainly we should offer compassion to any sinner, God does, and if we're to be Christlike.....

 

[TexasSky]

Diane,

There is one more person/need to consider that I hadn't thought about until just now. Maybe the child your daughter has now needs you and your husband.

If you make it clear that your daughter is not going to be allowed to "date" while living in your house, and that your son-in-law is welcome, you might be able to help your grandchild without endorsing your daughter's behavior.

Whatever the Lord leads you to do, I know you're trying your best to do His will, and I believe when you try to do His will, He shows you His will.

God bless you and your family. You sound like a loving Mom making really hard choices.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Posted by Paidagogos: From a Biblical view, their spiritual welfare is far more important than their temporal comfort.

This is certainly true. But if you cut off contact, you will have no input on their spiritual welfare.

Again, I am not saying Dianne is doing the wrong thing here. She probably isn't. But your broad brush strokes are certainly not giving an accurate picture of what is involved in marital counseling and solving marital problems. We simply need to point out that there is much more to it than what you have put forth here. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Ah, so what is your approach to marital counseling and solving marital problems? Of course there is more than I have put forth but my statements and principles are true and right. Time and space limit my posts. I have literally hundreds of books and many notebooks of my notes on this topic. I have searched and exegeted Scripture. During just this past year, I have read and studied dozens of books on counseling with at least 4-5 books on divorce and remarriage including works by Laney, Heth, Wenham, Adams, Murray, et. al. You are talking about an area that I have studied. I am persuaded of the Biblical foundations of my statements. Can you refute them Biblically? I believe the Bible ought to be our guide in counseling and dealing with people. I accept the sufficiency of Scripture.

Much of so-called Christian marriage counseling involves integration of psychology with some out-of-context Bible verses. It focuses on emotions and feelings. We cannot act on the basis of desires and feelings. We must act on Biblical teaching and the right feelings will follow.

This so-called marital counseling is mostly strokes in helping the counselees feel better about themselves. Marriage problems are the result of sin and self. Sinners don’t need strokes and coddling but they need loving confrontation about their sin. One can say, “What you are doing is wrong and sinful. I love you but I cannot condone or help you do this thing because it is not in your best interest and it is sin against God.” You can warn them of God’s chastening if they’re saved or you can evangelize them if they’re not.

Sometimes loss of contact is beneficial. Contact with us is not essential since it is God, working through circumstance and hardship many times, who reaches and changes the heart (Phil 2:13). I do not presuppose that contact is essential. We must do right and trust God for the results—too often we try to do God’s work and force the issue—it’s bound to fail.

BTW, you seem more intent on disproving me than making any valid points. Did I ruffle your fur? Let’s talk ideas instead of engaging in repartee. Okay?

 

[dianetavegia]

First let me say that my feelings have NOT been hurt and I understand that not everyone believes as strongly in what the Bible says about marriage being FOREVER as I believe. Each person must let the Holy Spirit be their guide.

AGAIN, our daughter and son in law live 1,200 miles away. We can't take most of the advice because of that distance.

I'd love to see them in counseling because I'm sure the pastor would quickly discern their need for Jesus as Lord and Savior and as the most important person in their lives.

Frank, I also believe in NO divorce but read scripture to say 'if he leaves.... you are not bound'. I read scripture to say adultery is a reason for divorce BUT Jesus said we are to forgive our brother who sins against us not seven times seven but 70 times seven. It is the hardened, unforgiving heart, that permits divorce under these circumstances.

It's a sad situation all around and it may be the Lord brings her husband to a saving knowledge of Jesus as Lord and Savior through this, and thus, the two little girls.

I could tell you much more but it would be sensationalism and you most probably can read between the lines. Adultery, however, is not involved in this 'decision'.

Diane

 

[FrankBetz]

Diane, it just may take the extremes, but one should look a lot closer into that wife being deserted not being "bound" anymore, it has nothing to do with her being released from her marital vows.

I will pray that he does get saved, and he will, if he cares anything about those two precious little girls, AND YOU CAN TELL HIM THE FATHER OF FOUR TOLD HIM SO!!!

They deserve nothing less than a saved daddy, taking them to church every Sunday!!!

 

[Pastor Larry]

BTW, you seem more intent on disproving me than making any valid points. Did I ruffle your fur? Let’s talk ideas instead of engaging in repartee. Okay?

More intent on disproving you? Hardly. I honestly don't remember what you said. You didn't ruffle my fur. I don't even have any.

I have read books on marriage and counseling by all the men you talked about, plus more. I have exegeted every major passage on marriage in the Bible.

Counseling, marital or otherwise, is never about making hte person feel better about themselves but about calling them to obedience. I have taken much heat on this board for what many believe are extreme views of counseling. Divorce is always the result of sin and hardness of heart by one or both parties.

Marital separation can be a wise and useful step in marital counseling, particularly when there is abuse or danger. I have never recommended it. I have in fact counseled wives to stay married to serial adulterers in the name of forgiveness. So don't accuse me of being soft on marriage.

The particular question in view here is whether taking someone into your home for a limited period of time during a marital separation is "condoning" or "sending the wrong message." My answer to that is No, in most cases. I would say that Dianne would not be necessarily wrong to take her daughter in for a limited period of time and counseling and working with her in marriage. It is not enough to say "She has seen 35 years of a good marriage." She might need to see more. She needs loving confrontation. There is no one easy right answer to this. Much depends on circumstances, history, personalities, etc.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />BTW, you seem more intent on disproving me than making any valid points. Did I ruffle your fur? Let’s talk ideas instead of engaging in repartee. Okay?

More intent on disproving you? Hardly. I honestly don't remember what you said. You didn't ruffle my fur. I don't even have any.

I have read books on marriage and counseling by all the men you talked about, plus more. I have exegeted every major passage on marriage in the Bible.

Counseling, marital or otherwise, is never about making hte person feel better about themselves but about calling them to obedience. I have taken much heat on this board for what many believe are extreme views of counseling. Divorce is always the result of sin and hardness of heart by one or both parties.

Marital separation can be a wise and useful step in marital counseling, particularly when there is abuse or danger. I have never recommended it. I have in fact counseled wives to stay married to serial adulterers in the name of forgiveness. So don't accuse me of being soft on marriage.

The particular question in view here is whether taking someone into your home for a limited period of time during a marital separation is "condoning" or "sending the wrong message." My answer to that is No, in most cases. I would say that Dianne would not be necessarily wrong to take her daughter in for a limited period of time and counseling and working with her in marriage. It is not enough to say "She has seen 35 years of a good marriage." She might need to see more. She needs loving confrontation. There is no one easy right answer to this. Much depends on circumstances, history, personalities, etc. </font>[/QUOTE]Okay, you seem to be coming around. You almost sound like Jay Adams at times. Glad you read books. Just note who is missing from my list of authors: Dobson, Collins, Smalley, Minirth, Meier, Crabb, et. al.. I have their books but I don't read them anymore because I can't take them seriously.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Coming around?? To what? What I said now is what I said at the beginning. I have read a lot of Jay Adams. I have read a lot of the stuff from CCEF, also very good (Tripp, Welch, Powlinson, etc). Adams is one of the most solid guys out there on biblical counseling and life change. Dobson, Collins, Smalley, Minirth and Meier, and Crabb are all integrationists who do not believe that God's word is sufficient for life change. That renders them less than useful for those who are interested in biblical change. I have read some of all of them and don't even waste my money or time on their books.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Coming around?? To what? What I said now is what I said at the beginning. I have read a lot of Jay Adams. I have read a lot of the stuff from CCEF, also very good (Tripp, Welch, Powlinson, etc). Adams is one of the most solid guys out there on biblical counseling and life change. Dobson, Collins, Smalley, Minirth and Meier, and Crabb are all integrationists who do not believe that God's word is sufficient for life change. That renders them less than useful for those who are interested in biblical change. I have read some of all of them and don't even waste my money or time on their books.

WOW! And I thought you were a mealy-mouthed intergrationist. See, you are coming round.

 

[Insane Zamboni]

Some of you sound like self-righteous busybodies who enjoy delving in to other people's business.

If Jesus were around, I can't imagine him asking questions like these. If a soon-to-be divorcee arrived at Jesus' doorstop, I can just hear him say, "I'm so sorry that things aren't going well in your life; come on in, stay as long as you like; and let's talk."

And he'd say all of that while greeting them with a warm, welcoming hug.

If WE turn our backs on people when they're hurting & broken, what kind of Christian does that make us?

Sheesh.

 

[paidagogos]

Originally posted by Insane Zamboni:
Some of you sound like self-righteous busybodies who enjoy delving in to other people's business.

If Jesus were around, I can't imagine him asking questions like these. If a soon-to-be divorcee arrived at Jesus' doorstop, I can just hear him say, "I'm so sorry that things aren't going well in your life; come on in, stay as long as you like; and let's talk."

And he'd say all of that while greeting them with a warm, welcoming hug.

If WE turn our backs on people when they're hurting & broken, what kind of Christian does that make us?

Sheesh.

Well, that's your opinion and no one has a corner on being opinionated and wrong. There are a number of problems with what you say.

1. The post is purely speculative. It has no basis whatsoever in fact but it is found only in the writer’s fantasy. We do not know what Jesus would do. He confronted the woman at the well about her sin and He drove the moneychangers out of the Temple. The situation with the woman caught in adultery cannot be used in this case because he was dealing with the hypocrisy of the Pharisees there. It is true that Christ forgives but forgiveness takes place only upon repentance. The pastoral epistles teach confronting those involved in sexual sins even to the point of breaking fellowship or declaring them to be unsaved. This fantasy of Jesus is not consistent with his actions and the picture portrayed in Scripture. Instead, Jesus is morphed into a 21st century caricature of what we want Him to be. This is the Jesus twisted into our modern misconception of tolerance—anything goes.
2. There is an apparent discrepancy between the attitude professed and the attitude expressed by the post. It is ironic that the writer vehemently castigates posters on this thread for chastising others. There is name-calling (e.g. “self-righteous busybodies”). You even ascribed a motive—“ enjoy delving in to other people's business.” Seems that you were doing a little delving too.

What kind of Christian does this make us? It shows a loving Christian who stands for truth and righteousness. Where do you stand?

 

[Insane Zamboni]

Touche, bro!

However, from my chair, it appears that you have a fantasy of Jesus based on a "20th or 19th century caricature" of what you want him to be--a mean spirited, unmerciful, judgemental, Pharisee of the Pharisees.

Yikes.

 

[dianetavegia]

Originally posted by Insane Zamboni:

If Jesus were around, I can't imagine him asking questions like these. If a soon-to-be divorcee arrived at Jesus' doorstop, I can just hear him say, "I'm so sorry that things aren't going well in your life; come on in, stay as long as you like; and let's talk."

So you are saying that Jesus would encourage sin over dumb stuff like 'We've grown apart'? You ARE Insane Zamboni!