Do ALL Calvinist Say that faith Itself Comes From God, is A Gift Directly?

[percho]

Thanks for sharing what you believe provides the biblical support for the "gift of faith."

My version of Hebrews 12:2 does not read, "...author and finisher (perfecter) of our faith." It reads, "...author and perfecter of faith." God created us with the capacity to trust in what we believe is the truth, and God provided through Christ, the message of the truth, the gospel of Christ. That makes God the author and perfecter of faith. So based on my understanding of this verse, it provides no support whatsoever for the "gift of faith."

The ESV, the HCSB, the NET and the NKJV adds "our" to the text, but it is not found in the Greek. The NASB, the NIV, YLT, Darby, and Wycliffe do not add "our."

My version of Philippians 1:29 does not read, "...The only ones who believe are those whom God grants the gift of faith." It reads, "For to you [Philippian believers] it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake." What this says is God did not preclude the Philippians from believing, He did not harden their hearts, and it also says He did not intervene and protect them from suffering for Christ's sake, He allowed it. So based on my understanding of the verse, it provides no support whatsoever for the gift of faith.

My version of 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not read, "who God chooses to believe truth." It reads, ...,"because God has chosen you from the beginning [or as firstfruit] for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth." Thus it says God chose you based on faith in the truth, rather than to give you faith in the truth. So based on my understanding of the verse, it provides no support whatsoever for the gift of faith.

1 Corinthians 1:26-30 says God chooses ...things of this world, which puts the order, as being called, then being chosen. So God chooses those who respond to the call by trusting in Christ as determined by God who credits or not, our faith in Christ as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5.

Acts 13:48 does not say God appoints people so they believe. The word translated appointed mean an agreement by mutual consent, thus God, through Paul, laid out the requirement, and the Gentiles agreed, and therefore as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. They took Paul's direction to eternal life which required them to trust in Christ.
So no support for the gift of faith yet again.

And finally, God does not necessarily give to Christ everyone He draws with lovingkindness. Only those who have both understood and learned from the Father are given, and so the second and third soils of Matthew 13 understood but did not learn as required by God, and so were not given.
At the end of the day, there is no support in scripture for the so called "gift of pre-salvation faith."

In the Greek, I believe yet I know no Greek, it reads author and finisher of the faith.

I also do not know much more English, schooling wasn't my high point, so what happens when the definite article in front of a word.

Here is what I think it says and brings out truth from the word.

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of the faith; That is the faith that comes by obedience. Or as Paul would say obedience of faith. Oddly enough where this phrase is used Rom. 1:5 and 16:26 (the) precedes it and it is not in the Greek.

Following in V-2 speaks of this obedience: endured the cross, despising the shame. See also Heb. 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Also Phil. 2:8 and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

I know he was God he didn't need faith. Maybe so, maybe not.

Heb. 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Hebrews 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Am I the only one who sees the fear of death here? Was this easy for the Word made flesh? Did it require any obedience? Faith? Luke 23:46 and having cried with a loud voice, Jesus said, `Father, to Thy hands I commit my spirit;' and these things having said, he breathed forth the spirit. He, Jesus the person died and his body (That which would perish in time) still hung on the cross. Acts 13:30 But God raised him Jesus) from the dead: Gal. 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him (Jesus) from the dead;)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; KJV for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, YNG

I notice (the) is not before faith in either translation yet I believe it to be there but as I said I know no Greek.

Need some scholar help.

 

[savedbymercy]

percho

In the Greek, I believe yet I know no Greek, it reads author and finisher of the faith.

Yes, and that word author is the greek word archēgos and actually means:

leading or furnishing the first cause or occasion. This actually means others will have faith following His example. His is a causative example. Its like saying, He is the Firstborn of many brethren who shall follow suite.

Then we have Heb 5:9

9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Heb 5:9

9And being made perfect [Through His Death], he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The word author here is slightly different than in Heb 12:2 but its the word aitios and means:

that which is the cause of anything resides, causative, causing

He is causing the obedience, even the obedience of Faith


If we are obeying Christ, it is because He was the Author or source of our Salvation. That is, obedience to the Faith is an and effect and fruit of His redeeming death

 

[DHK]

Christ is the author and finisher of our faith; that faith which we have after we believed in Him with our faith; that faith which Jude says we should contend for; that faith that is know to the rest of the world as "Christianity." You don't have it until you embrace it; you don't embrace it until you believe it by faith and faith alone--not God's faith but your faith.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
NOT: Believe (with God's belief) on the Lord.

 

[percho]

Christ is the author and finisher of our faith; that faith which we have after we believed in Him with our faith; that faith which Jude says we should contend for; that faith that is know to the rest of the world as "Christianity." You don't have it until you embrace it; you don't embrace it until you believe it by faith and faith alone--not God's faith but your faith.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
NOT: Believe (with God's belief) on the Lord.

I think I saw a thread somewhere about if there is a difference between belief and faith.

 

[percho]

percho



Yes, and that word author is the greek word archēgos and actually means:

leading or furnishing the first cause or occasion. This actually means others will have faith following His example. His is a causative example. Its like saying, He is the Firstborn of many brethren who shall follow suite.

Then we have Heb 5:9

9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Heb 5:9

9And being made perfect [Through His Death], he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The word author here is slightly different than in Heb 12:2 but its the word aitios and means:

that which is the cause of anything resides, causative, causing

He is causing the obedience, even the obedience of Faith


If we are obeying Christ, it is because He was the Author or source of our Salvation. That is, obedience to the Faith is an and effect and fruit of His redeeming death

The only difference I would have here is I believe the Word would teach it is the resurrection from the dead by which he was made perfect and became the author.

 

[DHK]

I think I saw a thread somewhere about if there is a difference between belief and faith.

They come from the same word in the Greek, pistis. One is a verb; the other is a noun.

BTW, an interesting insight into Heb.12:2

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:2)

The word "our" that precedes faith is not in the Greek. It was inserted by the translators. What was omitted by the translators was the definite article "the." He is the author and finisher of "the faith" is what it actually says.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK, you posted...

Christ is the author and finisher of our faith; that faith which we have after we believed in Him with our faith; that faith which Jude says we should contend for; that faith that is know to the rest of the world as "Christianity." You don't have it until you embrace it; you don't embrace it until you believe it by faith and faith alone--not God's faith but your faith.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
NOT: Believe (with God's belief) on the Lord.

Absolutely.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

(because some seem to be hard of hearing)

* God is not a puppeteer, as calvinism teaches.

* And God has no humanoid robots, as calvinism teaches.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Here is some more truth for the calvinists to...hopefully...learn from...



The word "predestined," as it is used in the Word of God, does not mean that God Decreed from eternity past who would be saved and who would be damned, as the Calvinists claim. The meaning of the word "predestined" is clearly brought out in Romans 8:29: "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."(ESV). God predestined those He "foreknew" would believe in Christ for salvation. God, who knows all things past, present, and future, knows ahead of time who will believe. He doesn't force it to happen, He just knows it ahead of time. And so God, in His wisdom, instituted the plan that whoever believed in Christ would become changed by the power of the Holy Spirit through the new birth, and become conformed to the image of His Son. Yet, because He is a God of genuine love, He offers this salvation to all people. In fact He commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30) and believe in His Son.

Calvinism, as a system of doctrine invented by man's reason, goes beyond what the written Word of God says, and so it is in error in each of it's five main points. Calvinism also distorts the character of God: by saying that Christ only died for the "Elect," they limit the love of God and limit the death of Christ. When Jesus died, He died for the whole world; His arms were outstretched to the whole world, and His sacrifice is available to ALL. He TRULY died for the whole world.[/quote]


http://www.compassionheart.com/custom3_2.html

 

[Van]

Hi Percho, all the article does is earmark faith as a certain thing, i.e the gospel of Christ, as opposed to faith in sound reasoning, for example. See Jude 1:3 for example.

The word translated "author" does not mean the one who causes us to believe, but rather the one who caused the message, the gospel of Christ. Christ is "the faith" from beginning (author) to end (finisher). Hence, the gospel of Christ is "the faith."

When Christ died on the cross, saying "it is finished" He had completed the work God had set before Him and was now the propitiation for the whole world. Thus Christ is the author, cause, source of salvation, there is no salvation in anyone else. That is what Hebrews 5:9 is saying, if we obey Him, and the command with the promise is whoever believers in Him shall not perish but have eternal life, Christ is the author, cause, and source of our salvation. Nothing in the verse indicates or suggests God is causing the obedience.

 

[Winman]

This issue is actually directly addressed in scripture.

Luke 17:5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

The disciples asked Jesus to increase their faith. Did Jesus say, "Sure fellas, I will be glad to give you more faith!"? No, he turned it around and said, "If ye had faith". Jesus had already provided everything they needed to have faith. They had seen many miracles, they had heard his teachings, they had been witness to his sinless life. There was no excuse for them not to have faith.

But then notice that Jesus begins to talk about a servant, and shows that a servant who is obedient to his master deserves no praise, they are only doing that which is their duty to do.

So, having faith in Christ is not some sort of merit on our part. It is our duty and is expected of us. We should not be high-minded because we believe. Paul also said this in Romans.

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Paul is warning these Gentile believers not to be proud or highminded because they have faith. Our faith is enabled by the word of God and working of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Van]

Yes Winman, the whole of the Bible clearly teaches God credits a person's faith a righteousness, not some gift which causes a person to believe. Calvinism is false doctrine, with no actual support in scripture. God chooses those who are rich in faith, those who are heirs to the kingdom promised to those who love God, James 2:5.

 

[Van]

If we define a Calvinist as someone who thinks all five of the points of the TULIP are biblical, then all of these "Calvinists" believe that God so supernaturally alters an unregenerate person that they come to faith without fail. That is the "I" of the Tulip, Irresistible Grace. But it is a false doctrine as demonstrated by Matthew 23:13 where people who were entering heaven, and therefore according to Calvinism had been altered supernaturally, were then turned aside by false teachers. QED

 

[savedbymercy]

The only difference I would have here is I believe the Word would teach it is the resurrection from the dead by which he was made perfect and became the author.

The scripture says He was made Perfect by the things He suffered Heb 2:10

For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.[/B]

His Resurrection was not a suffering, but a vindication from it. But thats a different subject.

Now when speaking of His post Resurrection Mediatorial Work, because of His Death, He lives to ensure that the beneficiaries partake of His Finished work. He ensures that the Holy Spirit applies Spiritual Life unto them. Thats why as a reward for Suffering unto death the Father gave Him the Promise of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:33

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

So like Heb 5:9 also Acts 5:32

32And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Everyone obeying, has been given the Holy Ghost, given through Christ. Thats why Christ is the Author of Salvation to those obeying..

The Holy Spirit applies the work of Christ unto all for whom He redeemed, giving them His Life through New Birth..

 

[percho]

And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple; Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms. (Is this not probably how he fed himself daily?)
And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.
And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them. (Like an alms.)
Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. And he took him by the right hand, and lifted [him] up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. (Why did he help him up?)

The Prince of the life ye did kill, whom God did raise out of the dead, of which we are witnesses; and on the faith of his name, this one whom ye see and have known, his name made strong, even the faith that [is] through him did give to him this perfect soundness before you all.


I will let all of you tell me how all this faith part transpired. Whose faith did what, when and to whom?

 

[percho]

The scripture says He was made Perfect by the things He suffered Heb 2:10

For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.[/B]

His Resurrection was not a suffering, but a vindication from it. But thats a different subject.

Now when speaking of His post Resurrection Mediatorial Work, because of His Death, He lives to ensure that the beneficiaries partake of His Finished work. He ensures that the Holy Spirit applies Spiritual Life unto them. Thats why as a reward for Suffering unto death the Father gave Him the Promise of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:33

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

So like Heb 5:9 also Acts 5:32

32And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Everyone obeying, has been given the Holy Ghost, given through Christ. Thats why Christ is the Author of Salvation to those obeying..

The Holy Spirit applies the work of Christ unto all for whom He redeemed, giving them His Life through New Birth..

You are correct and I stand corrected I was thinking in the concept of becoming the author of eternal salvation. After being made perfect through sufferings he became the author by being resurrected.

 

[Winman]

And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple; Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms. (Is this not probably how he fed himself daily?)
And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.
And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them. (Like an alms.)
Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. And he took him by the right hand, and lifted [him] up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. (Why did he help him up?)

The Prince of the life ye did kill, whom God did raise out of the dead, of which we are witnesses; and on the faith of his name, this one whom ye see and have known, his name made strong, even the faith that [is] through him did give to him this perfect soundness before you all.


I will let all of you tell me how all this faith part transpired. Whose faith did what, when and to whom?

I think you are assuming this man did not know who Peter was, but if you read the end of chapter 2 you will see it says fear came upon every soul and many signs and wonders were performed by the apostles. Many people were trusting in Christ. So, it is VERY likely this man knew and believed Peter had the power to heal.

 

[JesusFan]

The Title of the thread:

Do ALL Calvinist Say that faith Itself Comes From God, is A Gift Directly?

No one has been able to give me an answer from Scripture where God gives spiritual gifts (faith) or the fruit of the Spirit (faith) to the unregenerate/unsaved person. He doesn't. This concept of the Calvinist is totally foreign to Scripture and there is no Scripture that teaches it. Why then try to force the teaching?

Enjoy "jousting" with you on theological doctrinal discussions...

just curious, sometimes it seems that you are taking NOT what Cals actually believe, but what you think we are saying... from some of the more "extreme" branch of it!

Also, do you see all of us in "same camp?"
As there large differences even among Cals on some issues!

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK...




I believe it is because they heed the word of Calvin, more highly than the scriptures of God.

AiC

AIC....
Did anyone quote Calvin here? or you cannot give a scriptural response as usual,so you resort to this attack the person and label them as "Calvinites" idea.
The problem with this is,you are in effect lying if no one is quoting calvin.
Post something constructive if you can. Your attempt to answer Jn 17, by twisting it does not solve it AIC.

 

[JesusFan]

If we define a Calvinist as someone who thinks all five of the points of the TULIP are biblical, then all of these "Calvinists" believe that God so supernaturally alters an unregenerate person that they come to faith without fail. That is the "I" of the Tulip, Irresistible Grace. But it is a false doctrine as demonstrated by Matthew 23:13 where people who were entering heaven, and therefore according to Calvinism had been altered supernaturally, were then turned aside by false teachers. QED

Jesus here was addressing the pharisees, and his point to them is that due to YOUR teachings, Kingdom being denied to people..

Does not address doctrine of election, just that they were false spiritual leaders and guides, that IF one adhered to THEIR ways, would not enter into Kingdom, but those of God hear voice of jesus and will enter as one of His flock...

Also, Jesus said that in End times...
Signs and wonders performed thast IF POSSIBLE even the elect might be deceived, but the implication here is that it would not be possible!

 

[Iconoclast]

God never gives spiritual gifts or the fruit of the Spirit to the unregenerate.

While the unregenerate are unsaved they only have whatever natural gifts that they are born with.As God regenerates His elect they are given all gifts and graces that God intends for them to have. In this case those who are yet unregenerate are indwelt by the Spirit and given all that pertains to life and godliness,,eternal life, spiritual gifts and graces, repentance, faith ,new heart
The very ability to believe. To deny this is to deny biblical salvation....and to be left with a man made religion


I have never seen one person on this board post one Scripture that can refute that statement.

Many have offered you many verses on this very topic...you are correct however, that you have "seen" these answers.....yet. We can only pray that you are allowed to see them.:thumbs:

Regeneration does not come by God's faith.

No man seeks God .apart from God seeking Him.The verses have been posted and discussed.....Saving faith is the gift of God as part of His work of Salvation.
He shall save His people from their sins


Lest some get technical about the term, neither does salvation. God does not give spiritual gifts nor the fruit of the Spirit to the unsaved. All of which I said above applies here also. Show me the Scripture. I can give you plenty of Scripture where we are commanded to "Believe on the Lord and we shall be saved." But that is our faith, not God's. It doesn't say: Believe with God's belief to be saved. That doesn't even make sense.

It does not make sense ...to you ,and a few others on here as you fail to grasp the comprehensive nature of Jesus ...actually seeking and saving the lost elect sheep given to Him.
Your failed explanation of Acts 13:48 completely misses what Paul describes for us.....you have it completely wrong,and backwards.

You along with AIC, always reverse the teaching of the verses which actually is to deny the verses
Jn 17 Ezk 34 ezk 36 Jn 6 Jn 10 romans 8 and romans9