Do all people hear the gospel?

I would say this is one of the things I agree with John Macarthur on, and pretty much answers the question.

</font>[/QUOTE]Good point.

Great quote.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I am saying what Romans 2 says about those who do not have scripture.

I am saying that even for them the DRAWING of ALL is effective, the CONVICTING of the whole WORLD is effective and the "atoning sacrifice" for the SIN of the WHOLE world is effective such that the NEW COVENANT promise is seen JUST as Paul describes is in Romans 2 -- FOR THOSE who do NOT have access to scripture.

But then you probably already saw that I was saying that - so I am note sure what your question is.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob, to me if you say that drawing all men is effective, and convicting all the world of sin is effective, and the the attonment was effective for all, it sounds like you are saying all will be saved.

I know you calim that is not case, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that is what it sounds like to me.

If somthing is effective that means that it accomplished its intended purpose. In that case I would say that Christ's sacrifice did indeed accomplish its intended purpose in saving many, but it did not save ALL. That is obvious. So then His sacrifice had to be limited at least in its effect. That is why I believe the Scriptures teach us that the attonment is sufficiant to save all but only effeciant to save the elect.

 

Bob, one more thing. If you say that everyone is convicted of sin, how come we don't see evidence of this? Why is it the people can commit henious acts and delight in them with not thought about right or wrong? Ussually if a person is convicted there is some degree of doubt that they express concerning what they did.

The Gospel is the power of God to salvation, those who never here it will never be saved. As Paul said in Rm. 10:14-15

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? [NKJV]

People don't get saved apart from hearing the Gospel.

 

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE, because although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

Ahh...but I thought the natural man cannot receive the things of God. That he cannot know them. This is true but maybe it means something different than what Calvinists try to say it means. After all...look at the above passage.

Oh...and God can send an angel down to evangelize if no missionaries go to a certain place.

 

Funny how they NEVER agree with anyone opposed to them, though?
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I'll pretend I didn't read this sweeping and ignorant generalization.

That would be a lie...

 

KJ, will you provide Scripture where God would send an angel to proclaim the Gospel? Is there NT instance where this takes place?

 

Thank you for supporting what I said.

You are right the natural man does not recieve the things of God. That is why though they would know Him they do not glorify Him but instead continue on in their sin darkened lives.

 

4Hisglory...would you provide a Scripture that would support that God does NOT send an angel where no missionary goes? The charge was made that He cannot before I said that He could.

Let's see...just to humour you...there were angels "preaching the gospel" when Jesus was born. Paul said "if any man OR angel preach ANOTHER gospel let him be accursed." There are angels proclaiming the gospel from the heavens in Revelation. Would it really be too difficult for God to send an angel to a place where nobody has went on a one week missions trip? I don't think so. I'm not limiting God's Sovereignty.

 

The announcement of Christ's birth was a unique occasion, and was limited to a few shepherds whom then went and told others.

Paul was speaking emphatically to demonstrate that even if an angel were to preach a differnt Gospel that he should be cursed. He was not saying that would happen.

Revelation is an entirely differnt period of time. The Church has been raptured, God uses differnt means to propagate His Word.

The emphasis of the NT is that the local church is Gods institution to carry out His purposes of publishing the Gospel. He could have sent angels but He didn't. He said to His disciples "Go ye therfore" not to angels.

I am not limiting God's sovereignty either. He is the one who chooses who will hear and who will not. He is the one that sends out missionaries to proclaim the Gospel.

On a side note KJ- I appreciate your spirit. It is much more gracious than others who post here somtimes. Even though we disagree, I certainly enjoying doing so in calm manner that you have displayed. Thank you for you testimony!

Now back to your regularly scheduled debate.

 

I understand that.

But that is because Calvinists ignore the realm of free will so that "inneffective" means that any choice NOT to succeed - makes God HIMSELF "inneffective".

Using Calivinist's logic - God "inneffectively gave Adam Life" and "inneffectively created Adam as a Child of God".

Adam CHOSE death - but that has nothing to do with the "inneffectiveness of God" as it turns out.

Right on! And in a free will system that GOD sovereignly chooses - the "desired purpose" is to FULLY enable choice for eternal life such that the choice is REAL and the person REALLY CAN choose it (no marketing gimmicks or lawyereezing). Just as Adam FREELY chose to obey until he FREELY chose to sin.

The work of God in supernaturally DRAWING, and CONVICTING, and being the LIGHT tha coming into the WORLD enlightens EVERY MAN and providing the ATONING SACRIFICE -- is what enables that CHOICE for depraved fallen humanity.

Though some Calvinists may "claim" that in their model "that is not sufficient" -- but in the Arminian model - God deserves all the praise and glory for that all sufficient work of the Gospel!!

Actually - while I reject most of the Calvinist logic on this point - AND I reject the Calvinist claim that Christ did NOT provide the ATONING SACRIRICE at the cross (1John 2:2 NIV). They claim that instead of that Christ actually propitiated an angry God (as one might proptiated a pagan diety in greek mythology) and completed both the SACRIFICE of Atonement AS WELL as the High Priestly work of Atonement that God defines in Lev 16 and that Christ began in Heb 7-10 AFTER the cross. (Truly a confused train of logic on their part).

But I DO agree that once you do get to the REAL Bible model of Atonement (Lev 16) that INCLUDES the Heb 7-10 High Priestly work of Christ -- you truly have "limited Atonement" for as you say -- all are not saved. Once Atonement is complete - there is no more that can be done. No choosing, no more sinning and forgiving - nothing. The story ends there.

But since the Cross is in fact the "ATONING SACRIFICE" (1John 2:2 NIV) which is the slaying of the Lord's Goat - the "Sin offering" of Lev 16 --- then the ATONEMENT process continues with Christ's own significant and necessary work as our High Priest -- the judge of the living and the dead etc-- the Calvinist idea that HE only died for "The FEW OF Matt 7" instead of the "WHOLE WORLD" of 1John 2:2 is wrong.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I am sorry - did "I say I wrote John 16" -- if so I am sorry. I meant to say GOD Says "that HE CONVICTS THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

So you are asking why GOD would say that since YOU don't see evidence that all mankind has a convicting conscience regarding sin.

I am not sure how to answer your method of testint to see IF God is telling the truth.

God spoke to Cain BEFORE he killed Able - Cain DID IT ANYWAY. The baseless charge that the ONLY reason for sin is lack of conviction that it is wrong did not work with Lucifer or Adam or Cain or "ever"!

Their heart becomes increasingly HARDENED over time.

And this very fact is a slap in the face to the Calvinist notion that people start out dead EVEN in God's free will system of drawing and convicting.

The fact is that the environment HE provides does enable choice - but by consistently choosing rebellion over time - they harden their hearts.

That is true. And no doubt - IF you actually had an exhaustive record of all their thoughts and doubts you would SEE that in the early days they were not as hardened as they later came to be.

In Christ,

Bob

 

4Hisglory, no problem. If we can't keep things calm I wouldn't want to discuss this stuff.

I appreciate your answers to my points. I acknowledge that the Church is to be fulfilling the Great Commission. I just believe that where no humans go, that angels can go.

 

Actually - as Paul DOESN't CLAIM happens in real life in Romans 10 since in Romans 10 Paul appeals to NATURE as the VOICE that they ALL hear!!

Lets take a closer look at Romans 10 to "see in the details" the collapse of a key Calvinist belief.

In Christ,

Bob

 

First - the salvation sequence denied by Calvinism --

Whosoever Believes – is saved.

Romans 10

saved - salvation to those who believe. The fact that one who believes and is saved will continue to read and study and obey - does not abolish the fact of salvation just as stated above - at the time we believe.

Salvation comes to the one who confesses and believes. Then we go on to follow in the works of obedience – including water Baptism


In Rom 10 the sequence is the expected Arminian sequence.
#1. Believe in Christ after hearing the Gospel as you are being DRAWN to God
#2. This is a step toward God in righteousness
#3. Confess that you know believe and you will be “born-again” forgiven and saved!

By contrast the “expected” Calvinist sequence is
#1. Regenerated by God – forgiven, born-again “Alive and IN Christ”.
#2. Discover that God has saved you and that you are already born-again.
#3. Believe in the one that has put you in this saved state of existence.
#4. Confess that you are not only born-again and alive-in Christ, but NOW you also believe!

Notice that the “expected” Arminian sequence also appears in Acts 26 -

#1. Eyes opened by the preaching. Paul needs to go and be used by God to Open their eyes to truth.
#2. They need to CHOOSE to turn from darkness to light. (Christ is the one who coming into the world enlightens all mankind)
#3. And having turned – to be transferred FROM the dominion of Satan TO The dominion (Kingdom) of God. (Born again) Child of God.
#4. Having transitioned into God’s kingdom they are forgiven and saved.

 

Next the GOSPEL message that goes into ALL The world via nature -

Now the part everyone knows --

The full text quoted in vs 18 above is as follows

Clearly Paul is appealing (again) to nature's voice in declaring the truth of God - so that "they (the people - Jew and gentile) did hear" - fulfilling the
condition –

And using that Ps 19 context – Paul then continues…

and this - is in perfect agreement with the opening context of the book of Romans - chapter 1.

Clearly - they are without excuse because God did manifest himself as described in the text and still they refused the God that "draws all men unto him".

So although Paul points to the witness of God's creation in Ps 19 as proving that
Israel is "without excuse" and did have the opportunity to "believe" - he also points to the motive of jealousy as God's witness to non-Hebrew people results in salvation.

Again – Paul emphasis the Gospel message of Isaiah (the Gospel prophet) confirming Paul’s statement that the Gospel message was given and that men rejected it then as they do today.

Indeed - God's chosen race, royal priesthood, holy nation - seemed to be rebelling against the God that called them, that chose them - in spite of the witness we see proclaimed in the OT and in Psalms 19 regarding creation itself.


In Christ,

Bob

 

I don't know whetstone. Calvinists do believe that you have to be regenerated before you can be saved. I think he's got it bang on.