Do all people hear the gospel?

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by 4His_glory:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
Here's what one of your fellow calvinists, Johnny Mac has to say about Romans 1:20 "God holds all men responsible for their refusal to acknowledge what He has shown them of Himself in His creation. Even those who have NEVER HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO HEAR THE GOSPEL have received a clear witness about the existence and character of God- and have suppressed it. If a person will respond to the revelation he has, even if it is solely natural revelation, God will provide some means for that person to hear the gospel." Maccarthur Study Bible pg. 1693

I would say this is one of the things I agree with John Macarthur on, and pretty much answers the question.

</font>[/QUOTE]Good point.

Great quote.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
I believe that - and do not present it as bad marketing by a God that does not REALLY draw ALL.

I am still having trouble nailing down your answer on this one. So are you saying that all men hear the gospel? Is that what you are saying? Because no man can be saved apart from the gospel message of Christ- and you are saying that God is drawing ALL MEN. Do ALL MEN hear the gospel?

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The Bible says - "God convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16.

I believe that - and do not present it as bad marketing by a God that does not REALLY convict THE WORLD.

Conviction for sin is not hearing the gospel. A native who has never heard the name of Christ can still be convicted that murder is wrong. The passage speaks nothing of who will hear the gospel.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The Bible says that "God sent His Son to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1John 4:14 such that "HE is the atoning sacrifice for OUR SINS and NOT for OUR SINS only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2.

I believe that - and do not present it as bad marketing by a God that does not REALLY care about the WHOLE WORLD.

Did Christ ACTUALLY save all men on the cross? Was God ACTUALLY satisfied with all men through Christ's atonement? This is universalism if you take that interpretation. 'Our' refers to the Jews and 'The Whole World' refers to the gentiles. Again- these verses say nothing about all men hearing the gospel. Please answer my question.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The Bible says of some gentiles "they DO NOT have the LAW yet they DO INSTINCTIVELY those things written IN the LAW ... SHOWING the LAW written on their heart" Rom 2:13-16. -- The Heb 8 New Covenant promise SEEN among those without scritpure.

I believe that - and do not present it as bad marketing by a God that does not REALLY have a NEW COVENANT changed-heart ability/power/gospel for those who DO NOT have access to the written Word.

So you are saying that men can be saved apart from scripture because they have the natural law of God? Am I correct in my understanding of what you are saying?

Originally posted by BobRyan:
But then -- I am Arminian!!

I appreciate your honesty.

 

[BobRyan]

I am saying what Romans 2 says about those who do not have scripture.

I am saying that even for them the DRAWING of ALL is effective, the CONVICTING of the whole WORLD is effective and the "atoning sacrifice" for the SIN of the WHOLE world is effective such that the NEW COVENANT promise is seen JUST as Paul describes is in Romans 2 -- FOR THOSE who do NOT have access to scripture.

But then you probably already saw that I was saying that - so I am note sure what your question is.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[4His_glory]

Bob, to me if you say that drawing all men is effective, and convicting all the world of sin is effective, and the the attonment was effective for all, it sounds like you are saying all will be saved.

I know you calim that is not case, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but that is what it sounds like to me.

If somthing is effective that means that it accomplished its intended purpose. In that case I would say that Christ's sacrifice did indeed accomplish its intended purpose in saving many, but it did not save ALL. That is obvious. So then His sacrifice had to be limited at least in its effect. That is why I believe the Scriptures teach us that the attonment is sufficiant to save all but only effeciant to save the elect.

 

[4His_glory]

Bob, one more thing. If you say that everyone is convicted of sin, how come we don't see evidence of this? Why is it the people can commit henious acts and delight in them with not thought about right or wrong? Ussually if a person is convicted there is some degree of doubt that they express concerning what they did.

The Gospel is the power of God to salvation, those who never here it will never be saved. As Paul said in Rm. 10:14-15

How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent? [NKJV]

People don't get saved apart from hearing the Gospel.

 

[OCC]

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE, because although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

Ahh...but I thought the natural man cannot receive the things of God. That he cannot know them. This is true but maybe it means something different than what Calvinists try to say it means. After all...look at the above passage.

Oh...and God can send an angel down to evangelize if no missionaries go to a certain place.

 

[OCC]

Funny how they NEVER agree with anyone opposed to them, though?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll pretend I didn't read this sweeping and ignorant generalization.

That would be a lie...

 

[4His_glory]

KJ, will you provide Scripture where God would send an angel to proclaim the Gospel? Is there NT instance where this takes place?

 

[4His_glory]

Originally posted by King James:
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that THEY ARE WITHOUT EXCUSE, because although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

Ahh...but I thought the natural man cannot receive the things of God. That he cannot know them. This is true but maybe it means something different than what Calvinists try to say it means. After all...look at the above passage.

Oh...and God can send an angel down to evangelize if no missionaries go to a certain place.

Thank you for supporting what I said.

You are right the natural man does not recieve the things of God. That is why though they would know Him they do not glorify Him but instead continue on in their sin darkened lives.

 

[OCC]

4Hisglory...would you provide a Scripture that would support that God does NOT send an angel where no missionary goes? The charge was made that He cannot before I said that He could.

Let's see...just to humour you...there were angels "preaching the gospel" when Jesus was born. Paul said "if any man OR angel preach ANOTHER gospel let him be accursed." There are angels proclaiming the gospel from the heavens in Revelation. Would it really be too difficult for God to send an angel to a place where nobody has went on a one week missions trip? I don't think so. I'm not limiting God's Sovereignty.

 

[4His_glory]

The announcement of Christ's birth was a unique occasion, and was limited to a few shepherds whom then went and told others.

Paul was speaking emphatically to demonstrate that even if an angel were to preach a differnt Gospel that he should be cursed. He was not saying that would happen.

Revelation is an entirely differnt period of time. The Church has been raptured, God uses differnt means to propagate His Word.

The emphasis of the NT is that the local church is Gods institution to carry out His purposes of publishing the Gospel. He could have sent angels but He didn't. He said to His disciples "Go ye therfore" not to angels.

I am not limiting God's sovereignty either. He is the one who chooses who will hear and who will not. He is the one that sends out missionaries to proclaim the Gospel.

On a side note KJ- I appreciate your spirit. It is much more gracious than others who post here somtimes. Even though we disagree, I certainly enjoying doing so in calm manner that you have displayed. Thank you for you testimony!

Now back to your regularly scheduled debate.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by 4His_glory:
Bob, to me if you say that drawing all men is effective, and convicting all the world of sin is effective, and the the attonment was effective for all, it sounds like you are saying all will be saved.

I understand that.

But that is because Calvinists ignore the realm of free will so that "inneffective" means that any choice NOT to succeed - makes God HIMSELF "inneffective".

Using Calivinist's logic - God "inneffectively gave Adam Life" and "inneffectively created Adam as a Child of God".

Adam CHOSE death - but that has nothing to do with the "inneffectiveness of God" as it turns out.

Originally posted by 4His_glory:
If somthing is effective that means that it accomplished its intended purpose.

Right on! And in a free will system that GOD sovereignly chooses - the "desired purpose" is to FULLY enable choice for eternal life such that the choice is REAL and the person REALLY CAN choose it (no marketing gimmicks or lawyereezing). Just as Adam FREELY chose to obey until he FREELY chose to sin.

The work of God in supernaturally DRAWING, and CONVICTING, and being the LIGHT tha coming into the WORLD enlightens EVERY MAN and providing the ATONING SACRIFICE -- is what enables that CHOICE for depraved fallen humanity.

Though some Calvinists may "claim" that in their model "that is not sufficient" -- but in the Arminian model - God deserves all the praise and glory for that all sufficient work of the Gospel!!

Originally posted by 4His_glory:
In that case I would say that Christ's sacrifice did indeed accomplish its intended purpose in saving many, but it did not save ALL. That is obvious. So then His sacrifice had to be limited at least in its effect.

Actually - while I reject most of the Calvinist logic on this point - AND I reject the Calvinist claim that Christ did NOT provide the ATONING SACRIRICE at the cross (1John 2:2 NIV). They claim that instead of that Christ actually propitiated an angry God (as one might proptiated a pagan diety in greek mythology) and completed both the SACRIFICE of Atonement AS WELL as the High Priestly work of Atonement that God defines in Lev 16 and that Christ began in Heb 7-10 AFTER the cross. (Truly a confused train of logic on their part).

But I DO agree that once you do get to the REAL Bible model of Atonement (Lev 16) that INCLUDES the Heb 7-10 High Priestly work of Christ -- you truly have "limited Atonement" for as you say -- all are not saved. Once Atonement is complete - there is no more that can be done. No choosing, no more sinning and forgiving - nothing. The story ends there.

But since the Cross is in fact the "ATONING SACRIFICE" (1John 2:2 NIV) which is the slaying of the Lord's Goat - the "Sin offering" of Lev 16 --- then the ATONEMENT process continues with Christ's own significant and necessary work as our High Priest -- the judge of the living and the dead etc-- the Calvinist idea that HE only died for "The FEW OF Matt 7" instead of the "WHOLE WORLD" of 1John 2:2 is wrong.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by 4His_glory:
Bob, one more thing. If you say that everyone is convicted of sin, how come we don't see evidence of this?

I am sorry - did "I say I wrote John 16" -- if so I am sorry. I meant to say GOD Says "that HE CONVICTS THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

So you are asking why GOD would say that since YOU don't see evidence that all mankind has a convicting conscience regarding sin.

I am not sure how to answer your method of testint to see IF God is telling the truth.

God spoke to Cain BEFORE he killed Able - Cain DID IT ANYWAY. The baseless charge that the ONLY reason for sin is lack of conviction that it is wrong did not work with Lucifer or Adam or Cain or "ever"!

Why is it the people can commit henious acts and delight in them

Their heart becomes increasingly HARDENED over time.

And this very fact is a slap in the face to the Calvinist notion that people start out dead EVEN in God's free will system of drawing and convicting.

The fact is that the environment HE provides does enable choice - but by consistently choosing rebellion over time - they harden their hearts.

Ussually if a person is convicted there is some degree of doubt that they express concerning what they did.

That is true. And no doubt - IF you actually had an exhaustive record of all their thoughts and doubts you would SEE that in the early days they were not as hardened as they later came to be.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[OCC]

4Hisglory, no problem.

If we can't keep things calm I wouldn't want to discuss this stuff.

I appreciate your answers to my points. I acknowledge that the Church is to be fulfilling the Great Commission. I just believe that where no humans go, that angels can go.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by 4His_glory:

The Gospel is the power of God to salvation, those who never here it will never be saved. As Paul said in Rm. 10:14-15

Actually - as Paul DOESN't CLAIM happens in real life in Romans 10 since in Romans 10 Paul appeals to NATURE as the VOICE that they ALL hear!!

Lets take a closer look at Romans 10 to "see in the details" the collapse of a key Calvinist belief.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

First - the salvation sequence denied by Calvinism --

Whosoever Believes – is saved.

Romans 10

Rom 10:8 but what does it say? “the word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved;

saved - salvation to those who believe. The fact that one who believes and is saved will continue to read and study and obey - does not abolish the fact of salvation just as stated above - at the time we believe.

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 for the scripture says, “whoever believes in him will not be disappointed.”

Salvation comes to the one who confesses and believes. Then we go on to follow in the works of obedience – including water Baptism


In Rom 10 the sequence is the expected Arminian sequence.
#1. Believe in Christ after hearing the Gospel as you are being DRAWN to God
#2. This is a step toward God in righteousness
#3. Confess that you know believe and you will be “born-again” forgiven and saved!

By contrast the “expected” Calvinist sequence is
#1. Regenerated by God – forgiven, born-again “Alive and IN Christ”.
#2. Discover that God has saved you and that you are already born-again.
#3. Believe in the one that has put you in this saved state of existence.
#4. Confess that you are not only born-again and alive-in Christ, but NOW you also believe!

Notice that the “expected” Arminian sequence also appears in Acts 26 -

Acts 26
16 'But get up and stand on your feet; for this purpose I have appeared to you, to appoint you a minister and a witness not only to the things which you have seen, but also to the things in which I will appear to you;
17 rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you,
18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'

#1. Eyes opened by the preaching. Paul needs to go and be used by God to Open their eyes to truth.
#2. They need to CHOOSE to turn from darkness to light. (Christ is the one who coming into the world enlightens all mankind)
#3. And having turned – to be transferred FROM the dominion of Satan TO The dominion (Kingdom) of God. (Born again) Child of God.
#4. Having transitioned into God’s kingdom they are forgiven and saved.

 

[BobRyan]

Next the GOSPEL message that goes into ALL The world via nature -

Rom 10

12 for there is no distinction between Jew and greek; for the same lord is lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on him;
13 for “whoever will call on the name of the lord will be saved. ”
14how then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
15 how will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “how beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things!”
16 however, they did not all heed the good news; for isaiah says, “lord, who has believed our report?”

Now the part everyone knows --

Romans 10
17 so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18 but i say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

“their voice has gone out into all the earth,
and their words to the ends of the world.”

The full text quoted in vs 18 above is as follows

Psalms 19
1 the heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of his hands.
2 day to day pours forth speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.
3 there is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard.
4 their line has gone out through all the earth, and their utterances to the end of the world. In them he has placed a tent for the sun,
5 which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber; it rejoices as a strong man to run his course.
6 its rising is from one end of the heavens, and its circuit to the other end of them; and there is nothing hidden from its heat.

Clearly Paul is appealing (again) to nature's voice in declaring the truth of God - so that "they (the people - Jew and gentile) did hear" - fulfilling the
condition –

And using that Ps 19 context – Paul then continues…

Romans 10
vs 17so faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
18but i say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;

and this - is in perfect agreement with the opening context of the book of Romans - chapter 1.

Romans 1:
18 for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unGodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20for since the creation of the world his invisible attributes, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Clearly - they are without excuse because God did manifest himself as described in the text and still they refused the God that "draws all men unto him".

21for even though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22professing to be wise, they became fools,
23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

So although Paul points to the witness of God's creation in Ps 19 as proving that
Israel is "without excuse" and did have the opportunity to "believe" - he also points to the motive of jealousy as God's witness to non-Hebrew people results in salvation.

Romans 10
19but I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says,
“I will make you jealous by that which is not a nation,
by a nation without understanding will I anger you.”

20and Isaiah is very bold and says,
“I was found by those who did not seek me,
I became manifest to those who did not ask for me.”
21 but as for Israel he says, “all the day long i have stretched out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

Again – Paul emphasis the Gospel message of Isaiah (the Gospel prophet) confirming Paul’s statement that the Gospel message was given and that men rejected it then as they do today.

Indeed - God's chosen race, royal priesthood, holy nation - seemed to be rebelling against the God that called them, that chose them - in spite of the witness we see proclaimed in the OT and in Psalms 19 regarding creation itself.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
By contrast the “expected” Calvinist sequence is
#1. Regenerated by God – forgiven, born-again “Alive and IN Christ”.
#2. Discover that God has saved you and that you are already born-again.
#3. Believe in the one that has put you in this saved state of existence.
#4. Confess that you are not only born-again and alive-in Christ, but NOW you also believe!

It's no wonder you strain at Calvinism. You don't even understand it properly. This sequence couldn't be farther from the truth and I would venture to say that no calvinist believes it happens this way. Stop striking strawmen.

 

[OCC]

I don't know whetstone. Calvinists do believe that you have to be regenerated before you can be saved. I think he's got it bang on.

 

[whetstone]

Originally posted by King James:
I don't know whetstone. Calvinists do believe that you have to be regenerated before you can be saved. I think he's got it bang on.

Regeneration is a process of God opening one's eyes to the gospel that leads up to conversion. No disagreement there. But this statement is blatantly false- and meant to incite Calvinists, not reveal what they believe:

"forgiven, born-again “Alive and IN Christ”"

What hogwash. The accusation is that we say a person gets saved before they get saved. Why do Arminians insist on forcing this belief on us that we don't have?!

Arminians believe that ALL people are forgiven, saved or lost, so there is a greater problem with that system than Calvinism.