Do all people hear the gospel?

Why do Calvinists skip this verse

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that WILLITH, nor of him that RUNNNETH (away by context), but of God that HAS mercy.

Calvinists like to "imagine" that it says "it depends on God who DOES NOT HAVE Mercy" for the MANY of Matt 7 but ONLY "Has Mercy" on the FEW of Matt 7.

But sadly - imagination is poor eisegesis. (Actually maybe it is top shelf eisegesis)

ANd this one

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

And this one??

23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

How is it that God is making known the riches of His glory to the saints BY ENDURING WITH MUCH PATIENCE those whom He knows to be going to hell??

What is it about His longsuffering and mercy shown to the lost that MAKES KNOWN the riches of His Glory to the saved?

Is it because they CARE about the lost?

When they SEE Him claim to sorrow over the lost and to weep over their fate is this TELLING the saints something??

In Christ,

Bob

 

Indeed God is "telling the saints something" as He describes His mercy, love and concern for the Lost --

When the “unchanging God” weeps and grieves over the lost - He is not simply pretending so we will be duped into "thinking" He loves them and works for their salvation, when in fact He cares nothing at all for our children and loved ones that are “not elect”.

God’s Grieving involves tears as a parent weeps for a lost child!!

Lament over Jerusalem

God is sorrowful and GRIEVES for the lost and for the fact that He has done so much to win them - yet they TURN away.

God’s Spirit is grieved by the rebellion of His CHOSEN people His HOLY nation His ROYAL priesthood. Yes even by the LOST among them – even the worst among them.

ALL of God’s Compassion is stirred up within Him over the finally lost!

God will be displeased with the saints IF they rejoice at the fall/judgment of the wicked!

Are the saints "listening"??

 

Wow - it IS an Arminian Bible after all!!

 

WHO is it that will receive eternal life? Who of "THE ELECTION" will be saved? Read verses 10 and 11 at the end of this passage... notice that it says IF YOU DO THESE THINGS... THEN you will have made your calling and election SURE and will receive everlasting life. This is dependent upon YOU. Not some kind of set up where God decides ahead of time and no matter what you do you are either saved or lost:

2 Peter 1:
1: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3: According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things , ye shall never fall:
11: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ

-----------

Not only that but we are told time and time again that God wants "EVERY MAN" to be saved... "ALL MEN"... "WHOSOEVER WILL". Is it any wonder so many unbelievers are disgusted with Christianity? To portray God as a Being who wishes some to be lost is a horrible thing. Obviously you are misunderstanding the Bible if you believe such things.


Jn:1:9: That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.


Ti:2:11: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,


1Tm:2:4: Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


1Tm:4:10: For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


Rom:5:18: Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


Jn:12:32: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


Jn:1:7: The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.


Mt:12:50: For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.


Mt:16:25: For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


Rv:22:17: And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


Rom:9:33: As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


Rom:10:13: For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Acts:2:21: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


Acts:10:43: To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.


Jn:12:46: I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.


----------

 

The Gospel message is to be preached to EVERY person.


Rv:14:6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people


Col:1:23: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

 

If you look below the surface you will find that the false doctrine of "predestination" "the elect" and so forth comes from the desire to rid ones self of responsibility and from having to keep the law of God.

---------

The Methodists of the early days--people as well as preachers--endured ridicule and persecution, alike from church members and from the openly irreligious who were inflamed by their misrepresentations. They were arraigned before courts of justice--such only in name, for justice was rare in the courts of that time. Often they suffered violence from their persecutors. Mobs went from house to house, destroying furniture and goods, plundering whatever they chose, and brutally abusing men, women, and children. In some instances, public notices were posted, calling upon those who desired to assist in breaking the windows and robbing the houses of the Methodists, to assemble at a given time and place. These open violations of both human and divine law were allowed to pass without a reprimand. A systematic persecution was carried on against a people whose only fault was that of seeking to turn the feet of sinners from the path of destruction to the path of holiness.

Said John Wesley, referring to the charges against himself and his associates: "Some allege that the doctrines of these men are false, erroneous, and enthusiastic; that they are new and unheard-of till of late; that they are Quakerism, fanaticism, popery. This whole pretense has been already cut up by the roots, it having been shown at large that every branch of this doctrine is the plain doctrine of Scripture interpreted

260

by our own church. Therefore it cannot be either false or erroneous, provided the Scripture be true." "Others allege, 'Their doctrine is too strict; they make the way to heaven too narrow.' And this is in truth the original objection, (as it was almost the only one for some time,) and is secretly at the bottom of a thousand more, which appear in various forms. But do they make the way to heaven any narrower than our Lord and His apostles made it? Is their doctrine stricter than that of the Bible? Consider only a few plain texts: 'Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy mind, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength.' 'For every idle word which men shall speak, they shall give an account in the day of judgment.' 'Whether ye eat, or drink, or whatever ye do, do all to the glory of God.'

"If their doctrine is stricter than this, they are to blame; but you know in your conscience it is not. And who can be one jot less strict without corrupting the word of God? Can any steward of the mysteries of God be found faithful if he change any part of that sacred depositum? No. He can abate nothing, he can soften nothing; he is constrained to declare to all men, 'I may not bring down the Scripture to your taste. You must come up to it, or perish forever.' This is the real ground of that other popular cry concerning 'the uncharitableness of these men.' Uncharitable, are they? In what respect? Do they not feed the hungry and clothe the naked? 'No; that is not the thing: they are not wanting in this: but they are so uncharitable in judging! they think none can be saved but those of their own way.'"--Ibid., vol. 3, pp. 152, 153.

The spiritual declension which had been manifest in England just before the time of Wesley was in great degree the result of antinomian teaching. Many affirmed that Christ had abolished the moral law and that Christians are therefore under no obligation to observe it; that a believer is freed from the "bondage of good works." Others, though admitting

261

the perpetuity of the law, declared that it was unnecessary for ministers to exhort the people to obedience of its precepts, since those whom God had elected to salvation would, "by the irresistible impulse of divine grace, be led to the practice of piety and virtue," while those who were doomed to eternal reprobation "did not have power to obey the divine law."

Others, also holding that "the elect cannot fall from grace nor forfeit the divine favor," arrived at the still more hideous conclusion that "the wicked actions they commit are not really sinful, nor to be considered as instances of their violation of the divine law, and that, consequently, they have no occasion either to confess their sins or to break them off by repentance."--McClintock and Strong, Cyclopedia, art. "Antinomians." Therefore, they declared that even one of the vilest of sins, "considered universally an enormous violation of the divine law, is not a sin in the sight of God," if committed by one of the elect, "because it is one of the essential and distinctive characteristics of the elect, that they cannot do anything that is either displeasing to God or prohibited by the law."

These monstrous doctrines are essentially the same as the later teaching of popular educators and theologians--that there is no unchangeable divine law as the standard of right, but that the standard of morality is indicated by society itself, and has constantly been subject to change. All these ideas are inspired by the same master spirit--by him who, even among the sinless inhabitants of heaven, began his work of seeking to break down the righteous restraints of the law of God.

The doctrine of the divine decrees, unalterably fixing the character of men, had led many to a virtual rejection of the law of God. Wesley steadfastly opposed the errors of the antinomian teachers and showed that this doctrine which led to antinomianism was contrary to the Scriptures. "The grace

262

of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men." "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a ransom for all." Titus 2:11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6. The Spirit of God is freely bestowed to enable every man to lay hold upon the means of salvation. Thus Christ, "the true Light," "lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9. Men fail of salvation through their own willful refusal of the gift of life.

In answer to the claim that at the death of Christ the precepts of the Decalogue had been abolished with the ceremonial law, Wesley said: "The moral law, contained in the Ten Commandments and enforced by the prophets, He did not take away. It was not the design of His coming to revoke any part of this. This is a law which never can be broken, which 'stands fast as the faithful witness in heaven.' . . . This was from the beginning of the world, being 'written not on tables of stone,' but on the hearts of all the children of men, when they came out of the hands of the Creator. And however the letters once wrote by the finger of God are now in a great measure defaced by sin, yet can they not wholly be blotted out, while we have any consciousness of good and evil. Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind, and in all ages; as not depending either on time or place, or any other circumstances liable to change, but on the nature of God, and the nature of man, and their unchangeable relation to each other.

"'I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.' . . . Without question, His meaning in this place is (consistently with all that goes before and follows after),--I am come to establish it in its fullness, in spite of all the glosses of men: I am come to place in a full and clear view whatsoever was dark or obscure therein: I am come to declare the true and full import of every part of it; to show the length and breadth, the entire extent, of every commandment contained therein, and the

263

height and depth, the inconceivable purity and spirituality of it in all its branches."--Wesley, sermon 25.

Wesley declared the perfect harmony of the law and the gospel. "There is, therefore, the closest connection that can be conceived, between the law and the gospel. On the one hand, the law continually makes way for, and points us to, the gospel; on the other, the gospel continually leads us to a more exact fulfilling of the law. The law, for instance, requires us to love God, to love our neighbor, to be meek, humble, or holy. We feel that we are not sufficient for these things; yea, that 'with man this is impossible;' but we see a promise of God to give us that love, and to make us humble, meek, and holy: we lay hold of this gospel, of these glad tidings; it is done unto us according to our faith; and 'the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us,' through faith which is in Christ Jesus. . . .

"In the highest rank of the enemies of the gospel of Christ," said Wesley, "are they who openly and explicitly 'judge the law' itself, and 'speak evil of the law;' who teach men to break (to dissolve, to loose, to untie the obligation of) not one only, whether of the least or of the greatest, but all the commandments at a stroke. . . . The most surprising of all the circumstances that attend this strong delusion, is that they who are given up to it, really believe that they honor Christ by overthrowing His law, and that they are magnifying His office while they are destroying His doctrine! Yea, they honor Him just as Judas did when he said, 'Hail, Master, and kissed Him.' And He may as justly say to every one of them, 'Betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?' It is no other than betraying Him with a kiss, to talk of His blood, and take away His crown; to set light by any part of His law, under pretense of advancing His gospel. Nor indeed can anyone escape this charge, who preaches faith in any such a manner as either directly or indirectly tends to set aside any branch of obedience: who preaches Christ so as to disannul, or weaken in any wise, the least of the commandments of God."--Ibid.

264

To those who urged that "the preaching of the gospel answers all the ends of the law," Wesley replied: "This we utterly deny. It does not answer the very first end of the law, namely, the convincing men of sin, the awakening those who are still asleep on the brink of hell." The apostle Paul declares that "by the law is the knowledge of sin;" "and not until man is convicted of sin, will he truly feel his need of the atoning blood of Christ. . . . 'They that be whole,' as our Lord Himself observes, 'need not a physician, but they that are sick.' It is absurd, therefore, to offer a physician to them that are whole, or that at least imagine themselves so to be. You are first to convince them that they are sick; otherwise they will not thank you for your labor. It is equally absurd to offer Christ to them whose heart is whole, having never yet been broken."--Ibid., sermon 35.

Thus while preaching the gospel of the grace of God, Wesley, like his Master, sought to "magnify the law, and make it honorable." Faithfully did he accomplish the work given him of God, and glorious were the results which he was permitted to behold. At the close of his long life of more than fourscore years--above half a century spent in itinerant ministry--his avowed adherents numbered more than half a million souls. But the multitude that through his labors had been lifted from the ruin and degradation of sin to a higher and a purer life, and the number who by his teaching had attained to a deeper and richer experience, will never be known till the whole family of the redeemed shall be gathered into the kingdom of God. His life presents a lesson of priceless worth to every Christian. Would that the faith and humility, the untiring zeal, self-sacrifice, and devotion of this servant of Christ might be reflected in the churches of today!
-Great Controversy

 

If election and predestination are false doctrines why are they mentioned so often in scripture? </font>[/QUOTE]they are false in the way calvinism uses them.

 

again calvinism is supported by the GREEK, arminianism dissappears in the greek, and can ONLY be supported by English trans. as the word "Pas" DOES NOT NECCCEASRILY MEAN ALL, and must be defined by context AND the rest of scripture.

thankyou and God Bless

BobRyan not answering the 85 questions?

 

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

P.S. God the Son said that!

 

Yeshua4me2 -

In the verse, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God," does "all" mean "all"?

"Pas" is the "all" in that verse too.

So, when I say, "All means all," I am saying,
"Pas means Pas".

Now, either it DOES or it DOESN'T mean all.

I reject the view that it doesn't.

I consider saying, "It means it here, but not here," to be twisting scripture.

 

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

P.S. God the Son said that! </font>[/QUOTE]Who does the context define as the "whosoever" that believe? Ans: Those who were born of the Spirit.

P.S.- God the Son also said that!

 

This is the weakest of all arminian "proofs".

Arminianism certainly doesn't solve the problem you assign to calvinism.
</font>[/QUOTE]Actually it is one of many texts that are totally devastating to the Calvinist POV.

Arminianism believes the text as in "God REALLY IS unwilling that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance"</font>[/QUOTE] Then you put God in a position where one or more of His attributes are compromised.

If God is omnipotent then anything He is "unwilling" to allow will not be allowed. If He is "willing" that all should come to repentance then that will be accomplished... or else God is not really omnipotent.

And don't try to use escapes that you deny to calvinists.

jdcanady's explanation accounts for the facts: a) scripture says "all" b) not "all" repent. Your view latches on to "all" but then somehow stops short on explaining how God's will is thrwarted by the will of man.

If all means every single human person then you need to go ahead and explaining how come all don't repent without compromising God's omnipotence and omniscience.

Yet the facts of life and scripture still exist. Fact is that all do not believe. Fact is God still said that He foreknew and elected the redeemed. Fact is Jesus still said that His sheep hear His voice and follow Him. Fact is I Corinthians declares that the carnal man cannot understand spiritual things. Fact is that John tells us plainly that we are not spiritually born by the will of man but of God.

You like every other non-calvinists that posts here only want to deal with half the equation. And since you think that half of the equation contradicts what calvinists believe, you feel perfectly justified in discounting or denying the other half of the equation means what scripture actually says.

 

Yet the facts of life and scripture still exist.

And you didn't?

 

Scott J,

You are misinterpreting Jesus' discourse with Nicodemus.

Analyze this: The flow of the conversation.

Jesus does not say that you must be regenerated before you can believe. Jesus is paralleling himself to the serpent that was raised on a cross so that all who were afflicted by snake bite who looked upon the raised serpent, could live. They did not have to be made well before they could get well.

He says that God loved the world (mankind) and gave his son so that whoever believes in (sees) Him won't perish. It does not say that only those that are born again can believe!

You are saying that man must be born again before man can believe. So NO, God the son did not say that! You hold a wrong belief!

 

Notice that you, not I, had to insert words into the text to make it say what you wanted.

The text clearly says that a man must be born of the Spirit to enter into the kingdom.

Again, you try to force a dichotomy or failure in my belief where none exists. I have not denied but rather very consistenly affirmed the fact that a man must believe.

I have also consistently affirmed what you continue to deny- that scripture tells us why some believe and others don't. God regenerates the elect miraculously by the same pattern that Christ raised Lazarus. In His time, by His will, and for His glory... Lazarus and babies are the objects of resurrection/birth, not participants.

 

Yes, man must be born of the spirit to enter the kingdom, but that scripture does not say that man must must be born of the spirit to believe in Jesus.

You say man must believe, but you also say that man cannot believe unless first regenerated.

Conversion from sinner to saint is not resurrection! It is conversion of spirit. To equate being born again to resurrection is a false connection because ALL mankind will be resurrected, whereas not all of mankind will be converted. In order to be converted one must participate as the author of Hebrews says here.