Do any Baptist churches believe that Speaking in Tongues is for today ??

[Baptist Vine]

Originally posted by Lorelei:

The scriptures then are able to make us perfect, or complete. (The word perfect is "artios" which means complete.

Today we don't have genuine miracles that can be positively identified, we have illusions that rely on emotionalism and feelings. We have people "shaking" and falling down and uttering unintelligable words, and none of these examples are found in God's Word. None of them.

Why then are these false gifts on the rise? Because the time of the end is coming.

And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.[/QUOTE]That is why I believe what I do.

~Lorelei [/QUOTE]

Loreliei, that is more compelling.

But even though the covenant is perfect, 1 John tells us we are still sinners. Sinlessness is perfection. We are not sinless yet. Paul writes that the whole creation is groaning. I'm not disputing the examples of perfect you have cited, but we are not in heaven yet. Sin is not eliminated here on Earth.

I agree with the characterization you use to describe the 'mass use' of 'gifts' - what we see that is purported to be examples of the 'gifts', but do you allow any room for an isolated occurrence of anything miraculous at all - ever?

As an example, on the front page of one of the major papers in my city just last year was a story of a young girl who had a deadly cancer; her church prayed for her and, somehow, the cancer that was suddenly there once was there no longer. This was reported in a secular daily; no one argued or belittled the story. Now I don't know this church or the people involved, and I'm sure there is an outside chance the whole thing could be fraud, but I really didn't get the impression this was the case. There is a lot that seems to be fraud and clearly a false imitation as you say, but this seemed genuine. I also know of people who claim to have received some kind of divine guidance after prayer - and the result seemed to be genuine.

I don't see how a perfect convenant precludes these things; but then again, maybe there is a distinction between 'gifts' and what these occurrences are. None of the examples I've cited involved people who claimed to have a 'gift' that was some kind of systematic divinely bestowed ability that could be exercised at will. People pray, thats all, and in these instances, someting happened that, at least by mere correlation, seemed to be an answer.

James says to pray for the sick, the church elders are to pray. Is this a 'gift' of healing, or simply a church praying?

 

[Lorelei]

Baptist Vine,

Forgive me for not clarifying my thoughts sooner, it's just that I have discussed this topic several times and there are times I think that I have stated my beliefs more clearly within a thread only to realize later that it was said in a different one.

We must remember that the context of 1 Corinthians 13 is the gifts of the Spirit. Beginning in verse 1 of Chapter 12 to the end of chapter 14, Paul is speaking about spiritual gifts.

Verse 8 is talking about the gifts not the person who was preforming them. We as people won't cease, the gifts will.

1 Cor 13:8-12
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

Therefore, when we read verse 9 the emphasis isn't on the we, it's on the knowledge and prophecy.

9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,

So it is the imperfection of the gifts that are replaced with something perfect, not the people who had them.

10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

So it doesn't matter that we aren't perfect, this chapter isn't speaking about us

Verse 12 merely explains how then (without the new revelation completed) we couldn't see everything, but when it is complete, we will be fully known. This does not implicate or suggest that we will be perfect.

12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

I don't think this implies that we will be perfect, but that we will have a perfect revelation that will replace a need for the gifts. Paul's analagy from childhood to adulthood is showing us that there comes a time when things need to be put away. Now that we have the complete revelation, we don't need the gifts any longer. His lifetime analagy actual says to me that the gifts were for the childhood of the church, when it first began. When it grows and has perfect revelation, the gifts are no longer necessary.

1 Cor 13:11-12
11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
NIV

Do I believe in miracles at all? You bet I do! God can and will preform miracles as it suits His divine plan and purpose! He does not, however, give us the gift to preform them for him. That isn't necessary any longer. God never needed man to be an instrument, he just chose to give us those tools to confirm his Word before it had been written.

~Lorelei

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by Cara:
I attend a Baptist church that believes it is NOT for today but my own personal belief is that it is for today.
love Cara

One of the core beliefs of Baptist is the "Priesthood of the Believer' .
This is contrasted with the Episcopal thought which says that Where the Bishop is ,is where the church shall be in thought. I do not say this to put down our Episcopal Friends but to point out a distinction between the 2 different ways of thinking.
You can see things in the scripture that your Pastor may not see and your pasotr can see things that you cannot see.
In a baptist setting your pastorr would probably (assuming he believes in the priesthood of the believer) should respect you opinion as well as you respecting his .

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by atestring:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cara:
I attend a Baptist church that believes it is NOT for today but my own personal belief is that it is for today.
love Cara

One of the core beliefs of Baptist is the "Priesthood of the Believer' .
This is contrasted with the Episcopal thought which says that Where the Bishop is ,is where the church shall be in thought. I do not say this to put down our Episcopal Friends but to point out a distinction between the 2 different ways of thinking.
You can see things in the scripture that your Pastor may not see and your pasotr can see things that you cannot see.
In a baptist setting your pastorr would probably (assuming he believes in the priesthood of the believer) should respect you opinion as well as you respecting his . </font>[/QUOTE]Respecting someone's right to an opinion in a polite manner is not the same as respecting their opinion. If I disagree with you then, by definition, I do not respect your opinion. There is an idea out there nowadays that says we must respect the opinion of others. If I don't respect your opinion, then, I am being rude, disrespectful, impolite, or some other negative attitude when I am merely disagreeing. What Cara is saying is that she does not respect her church's teaching on the gifts of the Hiloy Spirit. That is her right, but it should not result in mutual respect on either side. It may not be a deal breaker as far as fellowship is concerned, but, don't mark it down as respectful. I don't want to "put down our Episcopal Friends" either, but, I have no respect whatsoever for the idea that, "Where the Bishop is ,is where the church shall be in thought". I do not wish to take away their right to think that way, because If their right is taken away then my right to hold a different view could be taken away. Respecting the right to an opinion is not the same as respecting an opinion.