Do babies go to heaven?

[awaken]

It does not say some infants...it says elect infants

Where does it say elect infants?

 

[webdog]

Let me throw this out there and see what some of you think...

Now that we have a better idea of what it means to be spiritually alive or spiritually dead, notice that the apostle Paul said that he "died" as a result of becoming aware of sin, and notice that he was alive until that happened (verse 9):

Romans 7:1: "Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives [zao in the Greek]?"
Romans 7:2: "For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive [zao in the Greek], but if her husband dies [apothnesko in the Greek], she is released from the law of marriage."
Romans 7:3: "So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive [zao in the Greek], she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies [apothnesko in the Greek], she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man." ...

Romans 7:9: "Once I was alive [zao in the Greek] apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died [apothnesko in the Greek]."

In verse 9 , notice that Paul didn't say, "Once I was happy apart from law," and he didn't say, "Once I was at peace in my conscience apart from law," and so on. Paul said, "Once I was alive apart from law," and then he said that he "died" when he learned of the commandments. In verses 1 to 3, Paul talked about individual people being alive or dead, and then in verse 9 he talked about himself being alive and being dead using the same Greek words as in verses 1 to 3. In verse 9 he was talking about his own personal death. When Paul said that he died, he obviously didn't die physically because he wouldn't have been able to write the above passage. He died spiritually, meaning that he would not have gone to heaven and would not have had eternal life with Christ if he had physically died in that state. Here's what a Bible commentary says about this verse:

"Evidently the apostle was speaking of his personal experience as a child and perhaps even a youth prior to his awareness and understanding of the full impact of God's commandments. ... The result was that the principle of sin within made its presence and power known (it sprang to life) in his violations of the commandment. As a result Paul died spiritually" (The Bible Knowledge Commentary, Walvoord and Zuck, Dallas Theological Seminary, p.466-467, emphasis added)

According to Paul's example, we were all spiritually alive as children until sin "sprang to life" within us through an awareness or understanding of sin. At that point we died spiritually.

Would you say that this supports the view that infants and young children are spiritually alive and will go to heaven if they die.

james 1:14-15 gives the unmistakeable chronological precise order leading to spiritual death. Not one states "created that way".

 

[awaken]

Some more thoughts...
Paul said, "when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died" (Romans 7:9). Some people argue that he probably meant, "When the commandments in the Law of Moses were given, sin sprang to life and mankind died spiritually." However, the problem with this argument is that the time of Moses is not when sin sprang up and mankind became spiritually dead. Notice that before Paul wrote Romans 7:9, he had already explained that sin sprang up at the time of Adam:

Romans 5:12: "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--"
Romans 5:13: "for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law."
Romans 5:14: "Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come."

So when people argue that sin sprang to life when Moses brought the commandments to the Israelites, this argument creates a contradiction in Scripture. Either sin originally sprang to life in Adam's time, or else sin originally sprang to life in Moses' time. We can't have it both ways.

 

[awaken]

james 1:14-15 gives the unmistakeable chronological precise order leading to spiritual death. Not one states "created that way".

Interesting!

 

[Iconoclast]

Where does it say elect infants?

Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

This is from the confession of faith.....1689 confession of faith.

Where does it say or speak specifically about infants who die....other than David saying he also would go to be with His child who died?
David did not specify what he meant other than he would go into the realm of the unseen dead.

 

[Iconoclast]

Quote:
Originally Posted by webdog View Post
james 1:14-15 gives the unmistakeable chronological precise order leading to spiritual death. Not one states "created that way".
Interesting!

This also is incorrect...james one speaks of sin...committed by a sinner...it gives the anatomy of a sin.

 

[webdog]

This also is incorrect...james one speaks of sin...committed by a sinner...it gives the anatomy of a sin.

A spiritually dead creation becomes a spiritually dead sinner? Of course it is breaking down a sin, similar to what Eve did...which lead to her death spiritually. Sin leads to death...death doesn't lead to sin.

 

[awaken]

Originally Posted by Iconoclast View Post
._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

This is from the confession of faith.....1689 confession of faith.

Where does it say or speak specifically about infants who die....other than David saying he also would go to be with His child who died?
David did not specify what he meant other than he would go into the realm of the unseen dead.

You are losing me on your post. Are you saying that infants that die go to heaven or not? Are you saying some go to heaven and some do not?

 

[awaken]

The reason why that argument of sin coming to life with Adam or Moses..it creates a contradiction in Scripture because it tries to interpret Paul's statement in Romans 7:9 ("when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died") as being a general statement about mankind rather than a personal statement about Paul. But notice the immediate context of Paul's statement. In Romans 7:7-8 Paul said that he learned what coveting is through the Law, and that this produced every kind of covetous desire in him. Paul was speaking of himself personally, and notice that he continued to speak of himself when he said that he died:

Romans 7:7: "What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet.""
Romans 7:8: "But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead."
Romans 7:9: "Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died."
Romans 7:10: "I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death."
Romans 7:11: "For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death."
Romans 7:12: "So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good."
Romans 7:13: "Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful."
Romans 7:14: "We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin."
Romans 7:15: "I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do."
Romans 7:16: "And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good."
Romans 7:17: "As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me."
Romans 7:18: "I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out."
Romans 7:19: "For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing."
Romans 7:20: "Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."
Romans 7:21: "So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me."
Romans 7:22: "For in my inner being I delight in God's law;"
Romans 7:23: "but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members."
Romans 7:24: "What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?"
Romans 7:25: "Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."

Notice that the immediate context both before and after Romans 7:9 is all about Paul himself. It's not about sin springing to life in Moses' time, but instead it describes the fact that sin springs to life within the individual person. Paul's example demonstrates that we were all alive in some sense as children until sin sprang to life within us through an awareness or understanding of sin. At that point we died (not physically, but spiritually). Consider that if we died spiritually at some point in our lives, then we must have been alive spiritually before then (as infants and young children).

 

[HisWitness]

how can babies have a work of redemption done in their hearts by the holy spirit bringing them to salvation--they cant talk-dont know the language,dont know good from evil-doesnt have the mental faculties to discern anything--so either all babies goes to heaven or they all go to hell--
there MUST be REPENTENCE and FAITH for SALVATION and babies cant have it.

 

[Iconoclast]

You are losing me on your post. Are you saying that infants that die go to heaven or not? Are you saying some go to heaven and some do not?

What does the confession state?

Are you saying that infants that die

No....the confession speaks correctly saying .....
ELECT INFANTS DYING IN INFANCY....... it does not say infants who die

Do you understand the biblical teaching about election???

Those who wrote the confession of faith very wisely answer the question by leaving it to the righteous judgement of God.

God might save:

All infants who die

all infants of believers

Some infants of all

or no infants at all......God has not told us,

So the godly men who wrote the confession, understanding the Covenant of grace, know that no one who God has not elected will be in heaven, not one non elect person...who would be outside of the Covenant of redemption...will ever be saved.

So the correct answer for infants, handicapped persons, or anyone else..is that All the Father gives to the Son, he dies for them...and they all will be saved.

All persons are conceived in sin and guilty...so any who are saved are saved by mercy.

 

[awaken]

how can babies have a work of redemption done in their hearts by the holy spirit bringing them to salvation--they cant talk-dont know the language,dont know good from evil-doesnt have the mental faculties to discern anything--so either all babies goes to heaven or they all go to hell--
there MUST be REPENTENCE and FAITH for SALVATION and babies cant have it.

So do you believe that when we reach an age to know right from wrong...this is the age of accountability?

 

[Iconoclast]

WD,

Of course it is breaking down a sin, similar to what Eve did...which lead to her death spiritually.

Eve fits the bill perfectly and is often used to illustrate what james teaches.

All others since Adams fall are not a blank slate, but have been conceived in sin...i know we do not agree here, but for the sake of new persons...I set forth our difference on this.

We sinned in Adam.We sin by experience...because we are sinners.

 

[awaken]

What does the confession state?




No....the confession speaks correctly saying .....
ELECT INFANTS DYING IN INFANCY....... it does not say infants who die

Do you understand the biblical teaching about election???

Those who wrote the confession of faith very wisely answer the question by leaving it to the righteous judgement of God.

God might save:

All infants who die

all infants of believers

Some infants of all

or no infants at all......God has not told us,

So the godly men who wrote the confession, understanding the Covenant of grace, know that no one who God has not elected will be in heaven, not one non elect person...who would be outside of the Covenant of redemption...will ever be saved.

So the correct answer for infants, handicapped persons, or anyone else..is that All the Father gives to the Son, he dies for them...and they all will be saved.

All persons are conceived in sin and guilty...so any who are saved are saved by mercy.

Well, I do not believe the way you do! Jesus died for the world...He will save the "whosoever" that believe in Him!

 

[awaken]

Here's another example. Notice that we were all dead in our sins before we received salvation:
Ephesians 2:1-2: "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,
Ephesians 2:2: "in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient."

Colossians 2:13: "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ."

So we were all dead in our sins before we accepted Christ as our Savior. Consider that an inanimate object such as a rock can never be dead because it was never alive in the first place. So if we were spiritually dead in our sins, the implication is that we must have been spiritually alive before we died. This supports the idea that babies and young children will go to heaven if they die before they reach an "age of accountability," because they are spiritually alive before sin springs to life within them.

In a similar way, Adam and Eve were spiritually alive before the Fall:
Genesis 2:15: "The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it."
Genesis 2:16: "And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden;"
Genesis 2:17: "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die.""

According to this passage, when Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they died. They did not die physically, because they lived for several hundred years and had a number of children after they ate the fruit. Instead, they died spiritually, just as Paul said that he died spiritually when sin sprang to life within him (Romans 7:9 ). Since Adam and Eve died spiritually at that point (when sin sprang to life within them), this means that they were spiritually alive before they ate the fruit.

All of these examples demonstrate that people are spiritually alive (as infants and young children) until sin springs to life within them, causing them to die spiritually.

 

[Iconoclast]

Well, I do not believe the way you do! Jesus died for the world...He will save the "whosoever" that believe in Him!

I believe that also awaken....

I also believe;
2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

So...the everyone believing in Jn 3....are the elect.:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[webdog]

WD,


Eve fits the bill perfectly and is often used to illustrate what james teaches.

All others since Adams fall are not a blank slate, but have been conceived in sin...i know we do not agree here, but for the sake of new persons...I set forth our difference on this.

We sinned in Adam.We sin by experience...because we are sinners.

The problem with that is James states "each one of us". That sequence is the means for sin and death for each of us, not just Eve.

 

[Bronconagurski]

You are new here, I have been pointing out Paul's statements for several years. There are many others that prove we are not born dead in sin as many falsely teach.

Read the three parables in Luke 15 which are one. The shepherd had 100 sheep, one was lost, the shepherd searched for it and recovered it. This sheep was not originally lost.

Next Jesus teaches of a woman with 10 silver coins. One is lost, she searches and recovers it. But originally it was not lost.

Then Jesus tells the parable of the prodigal son. Originally he was at home with his father. He left and went out in sin and became lost. When he repents and returns home, twice Jesus said the young man was alive AGAIN.

Luk 15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

No one is born dead in sin. Men are made upright (Ecc7:29), but all men go astray in sin and become lost like the prodigal son. When we repent we are born again, we are alive AGAIN. Believe the words of Jesus and not the false teachings of men.

Ok, then why does the scriptures say that in Adam all die? The law of biogenesis refutes your supposition that no one is born in sin. That same law assures our salvation once we are in Christ, as, positionally, we can not sin. 1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Also, David refutes your assertion: Psalm 51:5 (ESV)
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
I guess pelagianism is alive and well on this thread.

 

[Iconoclast]

The problem with that is James states "each one of us". That sequence is the means for sin and death for each of us, not just Eve.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.


WD...i think this is speaking of every day regular sin...vs 16 speaks of beloved brethren

 

[awaken]

Ok, then why does the scriptures say that in Adam all die? The law of biogenesis refutes your supposition that no one is born in sin. That same law assures our salvation once we are in Christ, as, positionally, we can not sin. 1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Also, David refutes your assertion: Psalm 51:5 (ESV)
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalms 51:5: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."
The above verse doesn't say, "Surely I was born spiritually dead," so you are making an assumption that this verse means that infants are born spiritually dead. The problem with this argument is that sin and spiritual death are two different things. Remember, every Christian is spiritually alive, yet every Christian commits sins due to the sin nature which we inherited from Adam,