Do babies go to heaven?

[Bronconagurski]

Psalms 51:5: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."
The above verse doesn't say, "Surely I was born spiritually dead," so you are making an assumption that this verse means that infants are born spiritually dead. The problem with this argument is that sin and spiritual death are two different things. Remember, every Christian is spiritually alive, yet every Christian commits sins due to the sin nature which we inherited from Adam,

I am saying that a man has to sin because he is born that way. Just because an infant is not held accountable does not mean that infant is not a sinner, nor not born with a sin nature. All people in heaven will be saved sinners.

 

[webdog]

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.


WD...i think this is speaking of every day regular sin...vs 16 speaks of beloved brethren

The error was saying God tempts us.

The way you undertand it leads to loss of salvation (death) for sinning.

 

[webdog]

I am saying that a man has to sin because he is born that way. Just because an infant is not held accountable does not mean that infant is not a sinner, nor not born with a sin nature. All people in heaven will be saved sinners.

Sinners are dead. If you are not accountable, yet are dead, how are you saved?

 

[Bronconagurski]

Psalms 51:5: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."
The above verse doesn't say, "Surely I was born spiritually dead," so you are making an assumption that this verse means that infants are born spiritually dead. The problem with this argument is that sin and spiritual death are two different things. Remember, every Christian is spiritually alive, yet every Christian commits sins due to the sin nature which we inherited from Adam,

Why are men spiritually dead, if not for sin? Adam became spiritually dead when he sinned. In Adam all die, or are spiritually dead.

 

[awaken]

Why are men spiritually dead, if not for sin? Adam became spiritually dead when he sinned. In Adam all die, or are spiritually dead.

What is your definition of "spiritual death"?

 

[awaken]

Now, here's something else to consider.

Jesus said that we must become "like little children" in order to enter the kingdom of heaven:

Matthew 18:3: "And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children [paidion], you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 18:4: "Therefore, whoever humbles himself [tapeinoo] like this child [paidion] is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 18:5: ""And whoever welcomes a little child [paidion] like this in my name welcomes me."
Matthew 18:6: "But if anyone causes one of these little ones [mikros] who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."

Matthew 19:14: "Jesus said, "Let the little children [paidion] come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.""

The Greek word for "little children" in these verses is paidion, which means "a little child, either male or female" (The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p.1089). In verse 4 (above) we're told that whoever "humbles himself" like a child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, and the Greek word for "humbles" (tapeinoo) means "to bring low, to humble" (The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p.1366). These "low, humble" people who believe in Jesus and are like little children are mentioned using the Greek word mikros in verse 6 (above), which means "low, humble" (The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p.986). Now, notice in the above passages that Jesus did not say, "unless you change and become like murderers, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." We would not expect Jesus to say such a thing because unrepentant murderers are excluded from heaven (1 John 3:15, Revelation 21:8, 22:14-15). Since Jesus said that we must become like little children in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, the implication is that little children are not excluded from heaven for any reason. This further supports the view that infants and young children are spiritually alive and will go to heaven if they die.

 

[Iconoclast]

The error was saying God tempts us.

The way you undertand it leads to loss of salvation (death) for sinning.

As there is no loss of salvation...it could be speaking of sin unto death for a believer in need of discipline

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

....for the unsaved person...it would be like the young man in proverbs, following after the strange woman:
2 He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks;

23 Till a dart strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life.

24 Hearken unto me now therefore, O ye children, and attend to the words of my mouth.

25 Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths.

26 For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her.

27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Sinners are dead. If you are not accountable, yet are dead, how are you saved?

I will turn it back on you: When is a man considered lost?

 

[webdog]

I will turn it back on you: When is a man considered lost?

I aasked first

 

[Iconoclast]

Now, here's something else to consider.

Jesus said that we must become "like little children" in order to enter the kingdom of heaven:


Matthew 18:6: "But if anyone causes one of these little ones [mikros] who believe in me to sin, i
Matthew 19:14: "Jesus said, "Let the little children [paidion] come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.""

Since Jesus said that we must become like little children in order to enter the kingdom of heaven, the implication is that little children are not excluded from heaven for any reason. This further supports the view that infants and young children are spiritually alive and will go to heaven if they die.

In verse 18 notice Jesus spoke of "little children" who BELIEVE IN HIM.

In Mt 19....it is speaking of child like trust....not a free pass for all
children. His idea is a falsehood, the text implies no such thing.

 

[psalms109:31]

We believe, therefore, that even before the intellect can work, God, who worketh not by the will of man, nor by blood, but by the mysterious agency of his Holy Spirit, creates the infant soul a new creature in Christ Jesus, and then it enters into the "rest which remaineth for the people of God." By election, by redemption, by regeneration, the child enters into glory, by the selfsame door by which every believer in Christ Jesus hopes to enter, and in no other way. If we could not suppose that children could be saved in the same way as adults, if it would be necessary to suppose that God's justice must be infringe, or that his plan of salvation must be altered to suit their cases, then we should be in doubt; but we can see that with the same appliances, by the same plan, on precisely the same grounds, and through the same agencies, the infant soul can behold the Savior a face in glory everlasting, and therefore we are at ease upon the matter.II. This brings me now to note THE REASONS WHY WE THUS THINK INFANTS ARE SAVED.First, we ground our conviction very much upon the*goodness of the nature of God.*We say that the opposite doctrine that some infants perish and are lost, is altogether repugnant to the idea which we have of Him whose name is love. If we had a God, whose name was Moloch, if God were an arbitrary tyrant, without benevolence or grace, we could suppose some infants being cast into hell; but our God, who heareth the young ravens when they cry, certainly will find no delight in the shrieks and cries of infants cast away from his presence. We read of him that he is so tender, that he careth for oxen, that he would not have the mouth of the ox muzzled, that treadeth out the corn. Nay, he careth for the bird upon the nest, and would not have the mother bird killed while sitting upon its nest with its little ones. He made ordinances and commands even for irrational creatures. He finds food for the most loathsome animal, nor does he neglect the worm any more than the angel, and shall we believe with such universal goodness as this, that he would cast away the infant soul I say it would he clear contrary to all that we have ever read or ever believed of Him, that our faith would stagger before a revelation which should display a fact so singularly exceptional to the tenor of his other deeds. We have learned humbly to submit our judgments to his will, and we dare not criticise or accuse the Lord of All; we believe him to be just, let him do as he may, and? Therefore, whatever he might reveal we would accept; but he never has, and I think he never will require of us so desperate a stretch of faith as to see goodness in the eternal misery of an infinite cast into hell. You remember when Jonah—petulant, quick-tempered Jonah—would have Nineveh perish God gave it as the reason why Nineveh should not be destroyed, that there were in it more than six score thousand infants,—persons, he said, who knew not their light hand tram their left. If he spared Nineveh that their mortal life might be spared, think you that their immortal souls shall be needlessly cast away! I only put it to your own reason. It is not a case where we need much argument. Would your God cast away an infant? If yours could, I am happy to say he is not the God that I adore.Again, we think it would be inconsistent utterly with*the known character of our Lord Jesus Christ.*When his disciples put away the little children whom their anxious mothers brought to him, Jesus said, "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not for of such is the kingdom of heaven,"

C. H. Spurgeon

We all have to enter His rest. The infants are they in His rest or have they already started working?

 

[HisWitness]

Man is lost at birth--its not what you do that makes you a sinner its who you are that makes you a sinner--born in sin--Election is totally true--but some men leave out the work of Repentence in the heart for salvation that every elect must have--those who dont have this work in their hearts cannot enter into God's Presence--as Jesus told Nico--YOU MUST BE BORN AGAIN or you can enter--and i say babies cant have that work done in them as i have already stated why in posts above--the conclusion to this is all babies must go to either heaven or hell--and i dare to say God doesnt send all babies to hell! ELECT goes to heaven sure enough-but the elect has the work done in their hearts and lives before they do!! so if 1 is to repent and have faith-all is to repent and have faith

 

[Bronconagurski]

What is your definition of "spiritual death"?

Death is separation. To be spiritually dead is to be separated from God and unable to have fellowship with Him. Adam sinned and became spiritually dead. All others since Adam are born that way. Because God is sovereign, I believe he doesn't hold children accountable for their sin nature, nor even the mentally retarded, in my opinion. But the heathen, even though they may have never heard the gospel, or the law (which some say is necessary to know that we are sinners), they have no excuse according to Romans. To believe that children have no sin nature is to say that they could continue that way. Why don't they?

 

[HisWitness]

i agree with Spurgeon in the upper post except i think the infants are in a safe state(not saved) but who really cares which it is--they all go to Heaven

 

[Winman]

Ok, then why does the scriptures say that in Adam all die? The law of biogenesis refutes your supposition that no one is born in sin. That same law assures our salvation once we are in Christ, as, positionally, we can not sin. 1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Also, David refutes your assertion: Psalm 51:5 (ESV)
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
I guess pelagianism is alive and well on this thread.

First, you have to be alive to die don't you? It doesn't say in Adam all are dead, it says in Adam all die, future tense.

Second, this is the only verse in all of scripture that describes us as "in Adam" (look and see for yourself). This verse is speaking of physical death, not spiritual. The entire 15th chapter of 1st Corinthians is concerning the resurrection of our physical bodies, not spiritual death.

Psa 51:5 is speaking of David's mother, not himself. David had just spent the first four verses confessing he alone was responsible for his own sin, it does not make sense that in verse 5 he suddenly blames his mother for his personal sin. This is in fact all that Original Sin is, a doctrine that blames Adam for our sin.

There is direct scriptural evidence that David's mother had had children with a non-Jew before David was born. In this sense David was considered the son of a "polluted" woman, this is what many believe David was referring to in verse 5. David looked upon himself with contempt from birth.

 

[quantumfaith]

By the very phrase it implies a subset of infants as non elect.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

I really like it when you guys use mathematical terminology. Icon is attempting to make the case for proper subsets. A subset can be "proper" or simply a subset. Being proper means it will be cardinally smaller than the larger given set. Being simply a subset implies that the "subset" can in fact be cardinally equivalent to the original set.

My vote of course, goes with subset for infants. I personally believe being an "elect infant as Icon does" has nothing to do with it. I believe all dying infants are granted God's hesed.

 

[awaken]

Here are several more interesting passages:
John 9:41: "Jesus said, "If you were blind [tuphlos], you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.""

Deuteronomy 1:39: "And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad --they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it."

Isaiah 7:14: "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."
Isaiah 7:15: "He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right."

Isaiah 7:16: "But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste."

In John 9:41, Jesus said that those who are "blind" are not guilty of sin, and He used the Greek word tuphlos which means "being blind, ignorant, stupid, slow of understanding" (The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p.1400, John 9:41). This refers to people who are ignorant of sin rather than those who are physically blind, which indicates that infants and young children (who are too young to understand about sin) are not guilty of sin. In Deuteronomy 1:39 (above) we see a reference to children who are too young to know good from bad. This demonstrates that young children are ignorant of sin, and Jesus said that those who are ignorant of sin are not guilty of sin (John 9:41). In Isaiah 7:14-16 we see that there's a period when young children are ignorant of sin, and therefore they are spiritually blind and not guilty of sin (John 9:41).

 

[Van]

I have not read this thread, but the premise is false. We are condemned for unbelief, so when we are conceived, we are condemned already. This is before we have done anything good or bad.

I have seen Paul's statement about dying when he became aware of his sin twisted to indicate he was spiritually alive before he became aware. This is simply wrong. We are "made alive" when we are united with Christ. Therefore anyone not "in Christ" is spiritually dead, and everyone "in Christ" is spiritually alive.

Now lets consider the condemnation. What does that entail? Eternal punishment! To be separated from God in eternal darkness. Therefore if a baby or young child or the feeble minded die in unbelief, they are condemned to eternal separation from God. But are they tormented as punishment for their misdeeds? Nope, they have not committed any misdeeds, having done nothing good or bad. Thus the only biblical solution is they rest in eternal peace, without conscience awareness.

This is the only view that fits with all scripture.

 

[12strings]

Our body is aware of the physical world around us, and our spirit is aware of God within us, and everything else is our soul, which is aware of "self." [/I]Pastors and Bible teachers often describe the soul as being made up of our mind (what we think), our will (what we want), and our emotions (what we feel). Every human, whether Christian or non-Christian, is made up of a body, a soul, and a spirit, right?

I don't think you will find the ideas in your bolded sentance above in any scriptures....If 1 Thess. teaches that we are Spirit, soul & body," then Jesus said that we are "heart, soul, mind, & strength...so where does that leave you...4 parts? I think there is strong scriptural evidence that a person is two parts: (1) Material (body, strength...), and (2) Immaterial (Spirit, soul, heart, etc). 1 Thess is simply using those refer to our whole selves...as was Jesus: Love God with your whole self, all that you are...he wasn't attempting to form a treatise on the make-up of human beings. I think one would be hard pressed to prove scriptually a clear distinction between soul & spirit.

When I say that non-Christians are "spiritually dead," this is not intended to mean that they are dragging around a dead "spirit corpse" everywhere they go. The Bible never says that a spirit can die, whether it's a demonic spirit, an angelic spirit, a human spirit, or God's Spirit. Instead, being spiritually dead means being separated from the life that is in Christ. For example, notice how Jesus defined eternal life:

I think this part is right. Our Spirit/soul being "dead" simply menas separated form our life-source, Christ...not unable to talk and think and act.

 

[awaken]

I have not read this thread, but the premise is false. We are condemned for unbelief, so when we are conceived, we are condemned already. This is before we have done anything good or bad.

I have seen Paul's statement about dying when he became aware of his sin twisted to indicate he was spiritually alive before he became aware. This is simply wrong. We are "made alive" when we are united with Christ. Therefore anyone not "in Christ" is spiritually dead, and everyone "in Christ" is spiritually alive.

Now lets consider the condemnation. What does that entail? Eternal punishment! To be separated from God in eternal darkness. Therefore if a baby or young child or the feeble minded die in unbelief, they are condemned to eternal separation from God. But are they tormented as punishment for their misdeeds? Nope, they have not committed any misdeeds, having done nothing good or bad. Thus the only biblical solution is they rest in eternal peace, without conscience awareness.

This is the only view that fits with all scripture.

And what scriptures do you have to prove your belief?