Do Calvinists hold a different gospel?

[Eternally Grateful]

That is your view but it is not mine. God does not say, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have dragged you kicking and screaming;" He says "I have loved you with and everlasting love, therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you." For years I resisted God and His Gospel, 'But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, to reveal His Son in me,' I believed. If God had not drawn me, I know I would not have come, but when His drawing came, I came freely and joyfully.

Again, You had no choice. God gave you something he did not give others.. he made his grace irresistabel to you.

I never use works as an example.

But you did in your last post..

Remarkable! That is truly amazing! You are referencing John 3, and ignore the fact that "Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:5). Of course they chose to look, but if God had not opened their hearts to do so, they never would have done so.

So your saying those who did not look to the serpent God did not allow to look, because he did not open their heart?

John 3 is amazing,

He who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already because they have not believed.

Yet Jesus claimed himself he died for every last one of them

I have writted this several times on this board, but I don't think I have done so since you joined, so here goes:
John 6:37. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me.........." There is your Particular Redemption. God has chosen a people to be saved and given them to Christ, and He will redeem every one of them. Not one will be lost.
".........And the one who comes to Me, I will by no means cast out." And there is your free offer of the Gospel. Whoever will may come to Christ - the worst, most flagrant, despicable sinnner, if He will come to Christ, will not be turned away.
Now just in case you have doubts about that verse, the Lord Jesus repeats it in John 6:39-40. We have to hold both parts; that God is sovereign in salvation, and that whoever will may come. Any variance from that in either direction is an abandonment of Scripture.

again, lets not pull verses out of context. lets look at the whole conversation

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

again, what is it that seperates the two groups.

saw and believed

the other also saw. but did not believe

one remained condemned because they did not believe

the other is no longer condemned, because they believed

God is a God of love, he does not with hold his grace from people. they reject him..

 

[JonC]

So you, as moderator, staff member (owner?) of the BB should be at pains not to misrepresent Calvinism on this forum.

If only!

Yes, I am a moderator (not an owner).

I have not and will not misrepresent Calvinism, or any other "ism".

I can tell a Jehovah Witness where they depart from God's Word. They will not see it. If I say their doctrine is false then they will say "you do not understand", "you are misrepresenting our fairh", etc.

Cultis have marks.

1. If you were in a cult and leave they will say you never understood their "truth", you lack understanding, you misrepresent their faith.

2. When they point to a passage they will tell you what it "really" means, abd this meaning will always exceed "what is written".

3. When questioned they will never be able to give you a passage that states their faith but will give you writings from their cult leaders and cult scholars.

4. They reinvent history as a myth carrying their faith back to antiquity.

I cannot help but see Calvinism in the way held by many here as matching these interactions I have had with Jehovah Witness.

1. When questioned these Calvinists tell you the Bible "teaches" what is not actually in the text of Scripture.
2. They provide a passage and then tell you what it "realky" means.
3. Since their faith is not in the Bible they will post from me who are leaders in their sect.
4. They tell former Calvinists they did not really understand.
5. They teach Calvinism existed, although not fully articulated, back to the Apostolic church.

This does not apply to all Calvinists, but it does to Calvinism and many Calvinists we encounter here.

 

[Charlie24]

The Bible teaches that God is kind to the unthankful and evil (Luke 6:35).
It teaches that He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust (Matt. 5:45).
If you believe that that constitutes love on the part of God, then God most certainly loves everyone.
But the Bible also teaches that the Lord Jesus, 'Having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end' (or 'to the uttermost') John 13:1).
You might also consider Psalm 5:5; 7:11 and John 3:36.
When I was a young man at University, there were never lacking people from the Christian Union telling me that Jesus loved me, and wouldn't I love Him back? I was always pleased to hear that Jesus loved me, but it never led me to love Him back. It took another 20 years before God saved me(Jonah 2:9b). I think that telling people Jesus loves them is a very poor way to do evangelism. We need to preach Spurgeon's three 'R's of evangelism. Ruin, Redemption and Regeneration.

I'm surprised you have heard what you have heard from the lost, but there we go.

You probably heard that God loves you so much because He does.

The most famous verse in all of Scripture says, "For God so loved the world that He gave..."

The apostle John that preached Love in every way known to man wouldn't agree with you.

But I have no doubt a variety of old hard nosed Calvinists would.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I actually study it as a whole to see what is said

Actually, you don't, because if you did you would have seen verse 8: 'That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed.
But in fact your argument is not with me, but with the Apostle Paul, because he takes the context out of Genesis and places it in the context of election.
v.22. 'Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump (i.e. twins Jacob and Esau) to make one vessel for honour and another for dishonour?' And so forth

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You probably heard that God loves you so much because He does.

He must have done because He saved me.

The most famous verse in all of Scripture says, "For God so loved the world that He gave..."

A better translation is, "For this is how God loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.' With this I absolutely agree. Why wouldn't I? It's Scripture.

The apostle John that preached Love in every way known to man wouldn't agree with you.

I think he would. It was he who recorded the words of our Lord for us. John 3:3. "Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again (or "from above") he cannot see the kingdom of God.'' So how much say did you have in your first birth? The time? Your weight? Your sex? You had no say at all. Why do you think you had any say in your second birth?
Also John 10:26. "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep." He does not say, "You are not of My sheep because you do not believe." Think about it.

 

[Charlie24]

He must have done because He saved me.

A better translation is, "For this is how God loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.' With this I absolutely agree. Why wouldn't I? It's Scripture.

I think he would. It was he who recorded the words of our Lord for us. John 3:3. "Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again (or "from above") he cannot see the kingdom of God.'' So how much say did you have in your first birth? The time? Your weight? Your sex? You had no say at all. Why do you think you had any say in your second birth?
Also John 10:26. "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep." He does not say, "You are not of My sheep because you do not believe." Think about it.

Even the apostle of love had a balance.

Yes, I given John 10:26 much thought through years along with similar verses.

They were not His sheep because they chose not to be His sheep. They simply would not believe Him.

Christ knew who was and who was not His sheep, who would and would not believe.

That's why He could say, "you do not believe because you are not my sheep."

It was foreknowledge given to Him by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Even the apostle of love had a balance.

Yes, I given John 10:26 much thought through years along with similar verses.

They were not His sheep because they chose not to be His sheep. They simply would not believe Him.

Christ knew who was and who was not His sheep, who would and would not believe.

That's why He could say, "you do not believe because you are not my sheep."

It was foreknowledge given to Him by the Holy Spirit.

I think you really know that doesn't work. If it were the case, our Lord would have said, "You are not My sheep because you do not believe.

 

[Charlie24]

I think you really know that doesn't work. If it were the case, our Lord would have said, "You are not My sheep because you do not believe.

He says, "My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow Me."

He knows they are not His sheep, and they will not believe.

"But you believe not, because you are not OF my sheep.