Do Calvinists hold a different gospel?

[Eternally Grateful]

Yep.

It amazes me when Calvinists quote these articles. They hold these doctrines ALMOST like Christians hold God's Word.

I say "almost" because in truth they hold these doctrines like they hold Scripture. They pick and choose.

Have you ever seen other Calvinists on the BaptisttBoard quote the "Doctrines of Grace" as @Zaatar71 just did by quoting Article 6?

SURE, we all have.

Have you ever seen a Calvinist on the BaptistBoard quote Article 17 under the same section?

Me neither.

They hold Calvinism like they hold God's Word - an amalgamation of ideas gathered to support their theories.

Here is Article 17, BTW:

"Since we must make judgments about God’s will from his Word, which testifies that the children of believers are holy, not by nature but by virtue of the gracious covenant in which they together with their parents are included, godly parents ought not to doubt the election and salvation of their children whom God calls out of this life in infancy."

We, those of us who are called by His name need to get back to God's Word.

We need to stop with the theories and devote ourselves to what God has written in Scripture.
We need to study it. And we need to apply it to our lives.

most of the arguments and or fights I see is based on doctrinal disagreements. Not so much biblical disagreements (The biblical disagreements are a result of doctrinal differences)

The Calvin/Arminian debate, with the exception of some in the catholic protestant debates, are some of the worse I have been a part of.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Every Calvinist (though not every Hyper-Calvinist) believes in free will. It is there in the WCF and the 1689 Confession. Of Free Will — The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith. I expect it is there in most, if not all, the other major Reformed Confessions. So Mr Friel is perfectly within his rights as a Calvinist to "turn to free will." Sinners in their unconverted state freely reject the Gospel (eg. John 5:40; 1 Cor. 2:14); when and if God opens their hearts to believe, they freely embrase it (Acts 16:14-15).

but is this really free will.

Unless God opens their heart. they will never receive it

If he does open their heart. they will never reject it.

to me its like they are trying to make it appear that their is a freedom of will. when in fact. it is all just words..

The reality is, in their theology, Unless God regenerates you (opens your heart) you will never recieve, hence you are forced to reject Gods salvation.

If he on the other hand, regenerates you, by opening your heart. You will never reject his salvation, so in essence, again, you are forced to believe

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Often the "regulars" are defined by the "hypers", not only in religion.

I used to believe I was a hyper.. Then I realized when I really got down to study. I am a zero point Calvinist.

yet again though. Instead of discussing calvinism, why do we not just study the word. I am at the point, I hate ISMS. because it closes dialogue

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The poster John is making non biblical posts. You are so mature, so he is all yours. You will do well together. Both of you are far from truth, but thats your choice after all.

again, you make a childish comment.

there is nothing in this post which is fact. it is your opinion.

Sadly. I have come to understand this from certain types..

I care about the word. Not what men believe or think. I am sure myself and Jon disagree on a few things (you see spiritual death is one thing we disagree on)

so I mean go ahead and put your foot in your mouth, If you think acting like this will get someone to see in you somethign they want to be, or maybe want to desire to listen to you. You are mistaken.

Now you can repent and start to look to the word. Or keep going this way.. the choice is up to you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It may not always be the case, but from what I have seen it is often the case (not with everybody, but it is often the picture opposing positions try to paint).

Free-will folks are viewed as superficial (theologically), viewing man as authoring his own salvation.
Calvininists are viewed as hate-filled anti-mission "Christians"
Early Church theology is presented as underdeveloped
Anabaptists are presented as "backwards" and uneducated.
Pentecistals are presented as emotion-driven and unscholarly.

We (in the US) see this in politics as well.

we see it in debates.

a great example is the term OSAS.

If you listen and read the discussions, there are those who reject the term and fight against it not because of what the bible says, But because they think OSAS came from Calvinism (it did not) so they must fight it at all cost. because their war is against calvinism.

again, another reason I hate ISMS

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes, that is quite right. People have the choice to believe or not, but unless God opens their hearts to believe they will freely exercise their choice not to believe (John 5:40; 6:44; Romans 3:11; 1 Cor. 2:14). When God opens their hearts to do so, they freely believe.

Read Titus 2:11-12 alongside 3:3-7.

again, this is not free will..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So you, as moderator, staff member (owner?) of the BB should be at pains not to misrepresent Calvinism on this forum.

If only!

has he misrepresented calvinism?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Calvinism holds that men who will only choose evil (this by their own free-will) are first regenerated and then they will God (Fifth point, Article 5).

The difference between Calvinism and Arminianism (which was one time within orthodox Calvinism) is not how men believe but if men can reject God.

This is where one has to pay attention to the cards in the Calvinist's hands (they are not from the deck many use).
Calvinism insists that man is regenerated before they can (or are willing to) believe. So you have somebody already "made a new creation" presented with the gospel.

Arminianism presents God as drawing all men in such a way God alone can be the author of salvation, but man can still author their condemnation. This is probably the closest to free-will you can get in these two theories. God enables one to believe without preventing man from disbelief. And regeneration follows faith.

Neither theory is biblical (in the sence neither can be found in God's Word). But both can look to Scripture to find individual verses to "support" their theories.


I tried to avoid these theogies and stick to what really matters (Calvinism and Arminianism are of no eternal consequence). But every time I think I'm out they keep pulling me back in.

its like a vacuum which draws you.. I feel the same

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@Charlie24

God instructed Christians to evaluate those teachings against "what is written" in Scripture. I believe this is why it took awhile for heresies to take hold. Churches were initially fairhful. And that is why I believe Christians today should obey that standard.

IF Christians tested doctrine against "what is written" in God's Word, leaned not on their own understanding but on every word from God, then many of these philosophies would never have taken hold in our churches. There would still be disagreements, different interpretations, and different understandings. Christians would still emphasize different truths of Scripture when dealing with doctrine.

But Chriatians would be united in Christ with God as their authority and these false doctrines (like Calvinism and Arminianism) would never have gained hold because they fail the test we are commanded to use.

There would be disagreements because we see now as through a glass, dimly. But Chrustianity as a whole would not have to deal with these stumbling blocks to the faith coming from within its own walks.

That is why I try so hard to keep my doctrine biblical (keep what I believe limited to "what is written" in God's Word). Now, I may not be the sharpest tool in the shed but I ain't stupid. I know I also have an understanding. I just try to keep that seperate from my belief (I try not to lean on it).

This is why you will never see me discussing end-times theories. I take what the Bible says as it comes, but freely admit I have no idea how it will look. I am not a dispensationalist or a covenant theorist. I take what the Bible says about dispensations and what God says about covenants as it comes in Scripture. How does God's mind work? I have no idea.


But I can read the words in my Bible. And I can believe those words. And I can easily test doctrine with a Bible and a highlighter to determine their validity.

What I have seen on this board is Calvinists condemning what I post when what I post is actually God's Word. They condemn me for rejecting what is NOT in God's Word.
Claiming to be wise they become fools - not because of me but because of Scripture. It is truly to them foolishness without their theory.

To the Calvinist this makes me two cans short of a six-pack. But I know where I stand now and will stand "on that day". So I'm cool with it.

sadly, we see even in pauls letters false teachers were already at work infiltrating the church. so satan wasted no time getting in and causing division and false precepts.

thats why the Catholic View God kept his church unstained is faulty.. While God kept his word from being stained (it is still inspired inspired of its interpretation issues) the physical church has been divided from the beginning

thats why we have to use the word to form our beliefs. not men..

Men will lead us astray if we do not test each spirit. or be as the bereans. in all things

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is a good stand. I can see dispensationalism, and I think it can be defended biblically.

I guess if pressed I would be a dispensationalist as I do see God working in various dispensations. Scripture tells us this.

I think that my interest in theological development and theology in general (particularly systematic theologies) has colored my opinion. So many just do not line up with Scripture. Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas, Calvin....they are interesting at first but at some point I think Christians realize they are missing out on the depth that is God's Word.
It is like drinking. At one time I liked beer. Now I don't. It was not a conscious decision not to drink. I just realized there was no benefit.

I remember a time I stopped telling people I was a Baptist. because they heard that, and thought they understood everything I believed because of what they were told a baptist believed.

most of the time they were wrong. so instead. I just said I was a born again bible believing child of God.. and refused to give an association until the people got to know me .

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I have talked to many through the years concerning their souls. I have heard many times "God doesn't want me, if He had chosen me I wouldn't be in this mess I'm in.

I ask them how do you know God doesn't want you and hasn't chosen you for salvation. Then they begin repeating Reformed Theology without even knowing what it is and where it came from.

They just give up believing they have no chance.

God is going to judge this, it's written on the wall!

I have been a church leader for 20-odd years and a member of Gideons Int. for 30 years, and I never heard anyone say that. However, IF people are preaching a 'gospel' that tells people that they need to look inside themselves to see if they are elect, then that is just despicable. The Bible tells us how to preach. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." That is what I preach as a five point Calvinist, and it is what Spurgeon preached, what William Carey preaved and what Whitefield preached. John Bunyan wrote a book called 'Come and wecome to the Lord Jesus Christ.' And the Lord Jesus Himself says, "The one who comes to me I will by no means cast out.'
We don't tell people to look inside themselves; they'll get no help there. They need to look to Christ (Isaiah 45:22).

 

[Martin Marprelate]

but is this really free will.

Unless God opens their heart. they will never receive it

If he does open their heart. they will never reject it.

to me its like they are trying to make it appear that their is a freedom of will. when in fact. it is all just words..

The reality is, in their theology, Unless God regenerates you (opens your heart) you will never recieve, hence you are forced to reject Gods salvation.

If he on the other hand, regenerates you, by opening your heart. You will never reject his salvation, so in essence, again, you are forced to believe

If God required people to fly to the moon in order to be saved, then unless He specially enabled them to do so, no one could be saved If He required people to solve the Binomial Theorum (no idea what that is) in order to be saved, then only special, super-intelligent people could be saved.
But He has done neither of those things. He has sent His only begotten Son to suffer and die on our behalf, and satisfy His outraged justice. Now He pleads with mankind to receive the Gospel, repent, and trust in Christ for redemption (2 Cor. 5:20-21). But left to themselves people exercise their free will; they will not repent and believe in Him. This is made clear throughout the Bible. "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil" (John 3:19).
If no one at all was saved, God would be just but not merciful. If one person only was saved, God would be both just and merciful. But in fact, a vast crowd from every tribe and tongue, nation and people (Rev. 7:9) will be saved. God's mercy is more vast than we can comprehend. He does not leave us to our own devices, which would be fatal for us; having sent us the Lord Jesus Christ, He sends His Holy Spirit to give new birth and draw this vast crowd to Himself (Jer 31:3; 1 Peter 1:3-5).
So the preacher needs to preach Christ crucified and the New Birth, and God will bless such preaching as He did that of Whitefield, Brainard, Carey, Judson, Spurgeon, Lloyd-Jones, MacArthur and a host of other Calvinists.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If God required people to fly to the moon in order to be saved, then unless He specially enabled them to do so, no one could be saved If He required people to solve the Binomial Theorum (no idea what that is) in order to be saved, then only special, super-intelligent people could be saved.
But He has done neither of those things. He has sent His only begotten Son to suffer and die on our behalf, and satisfy His outraged justice. Now He pleads with mankind to receive the Gospel, repent, and trust in Christ for redemption (2 Cor. 5:20-21). But left to themselves people exercise their free will; they will not repent and believe in Him. This is made clear throughout the Bible. "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil" (John 3:19).
If no one at all was saved, God would be just but not merciful. If one person only was saved, God would be both just and merciful. But in fact, a vast crowd from every tribe and tongue, nation and people (Rev. 7:9) will be saved. God's mercy is more vast than we can comprehend. He does not leave us to our own devices, which would be fatal for us; having sent us the Lord Jesus Christ, He sends His Holy Spirit to give new birth and draw this vast crowd to Himself (Jer 31:3; 1 Peter 1:3-5).
So the preacher needs to preach Christ crucified and the New Birth, and God will bless such preaching as He did that of Whitefield, Brainard, Carey, Judson, Spurgeon, Lloyd-Jones, MacArthur and a host of other Calvinists.

again, what you are proposing is not free will

You have God opening a persons mind, and at that point they will always believe

and if God does not open the mind, they will never believe

it is God who forces them to believe by manipulating them, or forces them not to believe by keeping the truth from them (making it so they can not understand)

You can not use works as an example. because we are saved by grace. not of works lest we should boast. so we have no ability to do anything to save ourselves

all we can do is chose to trust God and receive his salvation. (we are saved by grace through faith)

Again I turn to Moses and the serpent. It was there for all to be saved. all they had to do was look.

those who chose to believe looked, and lived, those who chose to not believe did nto look at suffered their condemnation.

God did not open one groups heart up and keep the other closed. they did that themselves.. God offered the same gift.. And again, I can not fathom why anyone would even contemplate that if I trust a person to save me completely. this is in any act of me saving myself.

 

[Charlie24]

I have been a church leader for 20-odd years and a member of Gideons Int. for 30 years, and I never heard anyone say that. However, IF people are preaching a 'gospel' that tells people that they need to look inside themselves to see if they are elect, then that is just despicable. The Bible tells us how to preach. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." That is what I preach as a five point Calvinist, and it is what Spurgeon preached, what William Carey preaved and what Whitefield preached. John Bunyan wrote a book called 'Come and wecome to the Lord Jesus Christ.' And the Lord Jesus Himself says, "The one who comes to me I will by no means cast out.'
We don't tell people to look inside themselves; they'll get no help there. They need to look to Christ (Isaiah 45:22).

Not all Calvinists teach the love of God for mankind, there are some here on these forums that teach God doesn't love everyone. That God does not offer His salvation to all of mankind.

I'm surprised you haven't heard what I have heard from the lost.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not all Calvinists teach the love of God for mankind, there are some here on these forums that teach God doesn't love everyone. That God does not offer His salvation to all of mankind.

I'm surprised you haven't heard what I have heard from the lost.

amen

again romans 9 is the point all.. They Believe God hated one fetus and loved another and chose to save one forever. and condemn another forever before they were even born

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thred will be closed NO later than 2200 hrs GMT, 600 pm EDT

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Not all Calvinists teach the love of God for mankind, there are some here on these forums that teach God doesn't love everyone. That God does not offer His salvation to all of mankind.

I'm surprised you haven't heard what I have heard from the lost.

The Bible teaches that God is kind to the unthankful and evil (Luke 6:35).
It teaches that He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust (Matt. 5:45).
If you believe that that constitutes love on the part of God, then God most certainly loves everyone.
But the Bible also teaches that the Lord Jesus, 'Having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end' (or 'to the uttermost') John 13:1).
You might also consider Psalm 5:5; 7:11 and John 3:36.
When I was a young man at University, there were never lacking people from the Christian Union telling me that Jesus loved me, and wouldn't I love Him back? I was always pleased to hear that Jesus loved me, but it never led me to love Him back. It took another 20 years before God saved me(Jonah 2:9b). I think that telling people Jesus loves them is a very poor way to do evangelism. We need to preach Spurgeon's three 'R's of evangelism. Ruin, Redemption and Regeneration.

I'm surprised you have heard what you have heard from the lost, but there we go.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

amen

again Romans 9 is the point all.. They Believe God hated one fetus and loved another and chose to save one forever. and condemn another forever before they were even born

So what do you do with Romans 9:13-16? Ignore it, or try to explain it away? The remakable thing in Romans 9:13 is that God should have loved Jacob.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

again, what you are proposing is not free will

You have God opening a persons mind, and at that point they will always believe

and if God does not open the mind, they will never believe

it is God who forces them to believe by manipulating them, or forces them not to believe by keeping the truth from them (making it so they can not understand)

That is your view but it is not mine. God does not say, "I have loved you with an everlasting love, therefore I have dragged you kicking and screaming;" He says "I have loved you with and everlasting love, therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you." For years I resisted God and His Gospel, 'But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, to reveal His Son in me,' I believed. If God had not drawn me, I know I would not have come, but when His drawing came, I came freely and joyfully.

You can not use works as an example. because we are saved by grace. not of works lest we should boast. so we have no ability to do anything to save ourselves

all we can do is chose to trust God and receive his salvation. (we are saved by grace through faith)

I never use works as an example.

Again I turn to Moses and the serpent. It was there for all to be saved. all they had to do was look.

those who chose to believe looked, and lived, those who chose to not believe did nto look at suffered their condemnation.

Remarkable! That is truly amazing! You are referencing John 3, and ignore the fact that "Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:5). Of course they chose to look, but if God had not opened their hearts to do so, they never would have done so.

I have writted this several times on this board, but I don't think I have done so since you joined, so here goes:
John 6:37. "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me.........." There is your Particular Redemption. God has chosen a people to be saved and given them to Christ, and He will redeem every one of them. Not one will be lost.
".........And the one who comes to Me, I will by no means cast out." And there is your free offer of the Gospel. Whoever will may come to Christ - the worst, most flagrant, despicable sinnner, if He will come to Christ, will not be turned away.
Now just in case you have doubts about that verse, the Lord Jesus repeats it in John 6:39-40. We have to hold both parts; that God is sovereign in salvation, and that whoever will may come. Any variance from that in either direction is an abandonment of Scripture.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So what do you do with Romans 9:13-16? Ignore it, or try to explain it away? The remakable thing in Romans 9:13 is that God should have loved Jacob.

I actually study it as a whole to see what is said

Rom 9: 10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.”

Taken from Gen 25
Genesis 25:23
And the Lord said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”

we see the context is not two babies. but to nations. two peoples.

13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

taken from Mal 1

1 The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi.
2 “I have loved you,” says the Lord.
“Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’
Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?”
Says the Lord.
“Yet Jacob I have loved;
3 But Esau I have hated,
And laid waste his mountains and his heritage
For the jackals of the wilderness.”

Again, speaking of two nations. Not two babies God loves jacon, but he hated Esau and laid waste his (Edom's) and his heritage

Israel’s Rejection and God’s Justice​

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion

Taken from Exodus, where moses pleaded for Gods mercy on the nation of Israel.. who had sinned against God in the wilderness

Ex 33" 12 Then Moses said to the Lord, “See, You say to me, ‘Bring up this people.’ But You have not let me know whom You will send with me. Yet You have said, ‘I know you by name, and you have also found grace in My sight.’ 13 Now therefore, I pray, if I have found grace in Your sight, show me now Your way, that I may know You and that I may find grace in Your sight. And consider that this nation is Your people.”

14 And He said, “My Presence will go with you, and I will give you rest.”

15 Then he said to Him, “If Your Presence does not go with us, do not bring us up from here. 16 For how then will it be known that Your people and I have found grace in Your sight, except You go with us? So we shall be separate, Your people and I, from all the people who are upon the face of the earth.”

17 So the Lord said to Moses, “I will also do this thing that you have spoken; for you have found grace in My sight, and I know you by name.”

18 And he said, “Please, show me Your glory.”

19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” 20 But He said, “You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.” 21 And the Lord said, “Here is a place by Me, and you shall stand on the rock. 22 So it shall be, while My glory passes by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock, and will cover you with My hand while I pass by. 23 Then I will take away My hand, and you shall see My back; but My face shall not be seen.”

Again, we see the nation of Israel is the context. a nation. not a child not yet born

You can not take OT passages out of context and make them say something they never said,, you must take them in context to see what God or the writer is trying to say