Do Calvinists hold a different gospel?

[Zaatar71]

That you have clearly misunderstood vs 4 is what cause you so many problems Z. Why do you read verses in isolation. As you rightly said 3-14 is one sentence so must be read that way. God's plan is that we would be chosen in Christ and Paul lays out the means for us to be in Christ, faith in Him.

You seem to think you were chosen without believing in Christ which is clearly not a biblical position as I pointed out in my post.

The decree of election is that whereby God has ordained certain men to His glorious grace in the obtaining of their salvation and heavenly life by Christ (Eph. 1:5).

In the decree of election according to God's determination, there is (as we conceive) a double act. The former concerns the end; the latter concerns the means tending to the end. (These acts are usually called the decree and the execution of the decree.) This the Holy Ghost seems to me to have taught very evidently, "that the purpose which is according to election might remain" (Rom. 9:11). Here, we see that Paul distinguishes God's eternal purpose and election and places in His decree a certain election in the first place before the purpose of damning or saving. William Perkins

 

[Zaatar71]

re is some more ;
And in Romans 8:29–30, "Those which He knew before, He also predestinated to be made like to the image of His Son. Whom He predestinated, them also He called." In which words, Paul distinguishes between the decree and the execution thereof, which he makes to be in these three: vocation, justification, and glorification.

Moreover, He distinguishes the decree into two acts: foreknowledge, whereby He does acknowledge some men for His own before the rest; and predestination, whereby He has determined from eternity to make them like to Christ. In like manner, Peter teaches (1 Peter 1:2), where he says "that the faithful are elected according to the foreknowledge of God the Father to sanctification of the spirit." If any man shall say that by foreknowledge in these places we must understand (as many would) the foreknowledge or foreseeing of future faith, he is manifestly deceived.

For whom God foreknew, them He did predestinate that they should be like to Christ—that is, that they should be made just and the sons of God. For Paul adds, "That He might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29). But those which are predestinated to be just and to be the sons of God are also predestinated to believe, because adoption and righteousness are received by faith.

Now we cannot rightly say that God does first foreknow that men will believe and afterward predestinate them to believe, because that God has therefore foreknown that those shall believe whom He did foreknow would believe, because He did decree that they should believe.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We could discuss that!

yes we could

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Hello EG,
Ephesians does not start at vs.13....In Ephesians 1 vs. 3-14 is actually one sentence in the original text. It should be read from 3 to 14.
A person starting at 13, and cutting out....
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Is simply being dishonest, and taking the work of God, and making it a man centered work, and not the action of God upon the Elect.

I never said otherwise.

But 3 - 5 have to be taken in context with 13 - 14.

if you do not put them together and make them all one point.. you miss on the true intent of vs 3 - 5

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Do you hate the teaching of vs4-5 Silverhair?
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

What do you not see here? Vs13, 14, are the results of vs4-5, not the cause! It cannot be written any clearer, can it?

Faith is an instrument, saving faith is the gift of God. men do not have saving faith in and of themselves. It is given or graced to them. men trying to work up a man made faith, which is in reality not saving faith, but rather a human trust, is a work. They are saying man must do something, in order to be saved. man must add something. That is why the man centered idea , is said to be a word. That is something men do.

once again

vs 13 and 14 is how 4 and 5 happens. God choses and predestines based on his foreknowledge and his will. what is his will?

that all who see and believe will be saved

Yes faith is an instrument, We aree saved by Grave THROUGH FAITH.

God does not fo0rce us to trust him,, he offers us the opportunity to receive him.

John 1, But as many as have received him

 

[Eternally Grateful]

re is some more ;
And in Romans 8:29–30, "Those which He knew before,

here you go

what did he know about them? why did the father Tell jesus he could have all of them?

 

[JonC]

I never heard this from any calvinist. Just saying, I will have to do some research

I do not know that they will outright say it, although some will.

But in Calvinism faith is given by God to the elect. The most common view is God regenerates the ekect, they believe as a gift from God, and are saved.

But forgiveness itself was completed when God punished their sins laid on Jesus. Their sins being punished there is nothing to actually forgive (the debt of their sins have been paid in full).

Calvinism is very compact. A consistent Calvinist is a five points Calvinist. And the philosophy itself is logical in how it is constructed.

The problem is Calvinism is not logical if one takes one step back and looks at redemption as a whole. And it is not biblical.

For example, the Calvinist has no use for Chriat's death (physical death) in terms of forgiveness or redemption. Chriat suffered God's punishment for our sins instead of us. We die physically. Jesus could have suffered God's punishment and simply walked away (in terms of redemption).

Calvinists believe that the punishment for sin is spiritual death, and they believe Adam experienced this spiritual death and walked away.

My answer is Calvinism, if held as the gospel, is a different gospel and one that is incapable of salvation. But people can believe the gospel and understand things about that gospel in terms of Calvinism. They would be unbiblical, but they would be saved.

 

[JonC]

once again

vs 13 and 14 is how 4 and 5 happens. God choses and predestines based on his foreknowledge and his will. what is his will?

that all who see and believe will be saved

Yes faith is an instrument, We aree saved by Grave THROUGH FAITH.

God does not fo0rce us to trust him,, he offers us the opportunity to receive him.

John 1, But as many as have received him

Not only that, but many misses the "in Him" part. Christ is the Elect, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. We, who believe, are therefore chosen IN HIM from the foundation of the world. The passage is not speaking about "chosen to be in Him" but those who are in Him being predestined to be conformed into His image.

One has to be very careful when dealing with Calvinists. They extract passages, often drop of or minimize points t9 support their philosophy.

 

[Zaatar71]

once again

vs 13 and 14 is how 4 and 5 happens. God choses and predestines based on his foreknowledge and his will. what is his will?

No EG, that is exactly backwards... vs 4-5 result in vs13-14

that all who see and believe will be saved

When people profess faith, that is the evidence they were elected by God

Yes faith is an instrument, We aree saved by Grave THROUGH FAITH.

yes, agreed

God does not fo0rce us to trust him,, he offers us the opportunity to receive him.

No, men do not seek God by themselves, Jesus seeks and saves that which is lost. Not the other way around

John 1, But as many as have received himyes, go past vs 12 to vs 13

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
God once again is the cause. The result is men then believe and receive, because of God giving them a new heart.

 

[Charlie24]

Not only that, but many misses the "in Him" part. Christ is the Elect, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. We, who believe, are therefore chosen IN HIM from the foundation of the world. The passage is not speaking about "chosen to be in Him" but those who are in Him being predestined to be conformed into His image.

One has to be very careful when dealing with Calvinists. They extract passages, often drop of or minimize points t9 support their philosophy.

That is my point with the Calvinists. No one was predestined to saved, they "whosoever will" were predestined to His plan to be conformed.

How many times does the Scripture say, "whosoever will?"

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I do not know that they will outright say it, although some will.

But in Calvinism faith is given by God to the elect. The most common view is God regenerates the ekect, they believe as a gift from God, and are saved.

But forgiveness itself was completed when God punished their sins laid on Jesus. Their sins being punished there is nothing to actually forgive (the debt of their sins have been paid in full).

well I see it this way sort of. All manner of sin is forgiven all men. But the sin of unbelief.

We differ in that they think he only died for the elect. I believe he died for everyone.

Calvinism is very compact. A consistent Calvinist is a five points Calvinist. And the philosophy itself is logical in how it is constructed.

The problem is Calvinism is not logical if one takes one step back and looks at redemption as a whole. And it is not biblical.

For example, the Calvinist has no use for Chriat's death (physical death) in terms of forgiveness or redemption. Chriat suffered God's punishment for our sins instead of us. We die physically. Jesus could have suffered God's punishment and simply walked away (in terms of redemption).

not sure what you mean here

Calvinists believe that the punishment for sin is spiritual death, and they believe Adam experienced this spiritual death and walked away.

Amen, this is 100% true. Adam died the moment he sinned, we can tell by how he lost knowledge of what and who God was (he tried to hide, he lied, and blame shifted) and his focus came off God and on self.

that is the result of spiritual death

My answer is Calvinism, if held as the gospel, is a different gospel and one that is incapable of salvation. But people can believe the gospel and understand things about that gospel in terms of Calvinism. They would be unbiblical, but they would be saved.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not only that, but many misses the "in Him" part. Christ is the Elect, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. We, who believe, are therefore chosen IN HIM from the foundation of the world. The passage is not speaking about "chosen to be in Him" but those who are in Him being predestined to be conformed into His image.

One has to be very careful when dealing with Calvinists. They extract passages, often drop of or minimize points t9 support their philosophy.

Yes. Like I said, for some reason. the fact one has faith in God seems painful to them and self righteous.

Yet when you actually ask them, no one can actually explain in plain terms why trusting in someone else. and nothing of yourself is earning salvation or anything else.

the one who was saved from a burning car because he trusted his rescuer to save him can not boast of saving himself.. this is nonsense

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No EG, that is exactly backwards... vs 4-5 result in vs13-14

No, it is not. It is not written this way, nore would it fit the rest of scripture.

When people profess faith, that is the evidence they were elected by God

No. It is evidence they trust God. and that they have recieved the gift of life (john 3 with John 1)

yes, agreed

No, men do not seek God by themselves, Jesus seeks and saves that which is lost. Not the other way around

yes. but many are called few are chosen, because not everyone called repents and believes

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
God once again is the cause. The result is men then believe and receive, because of God giving them a new heart.

Yes, I can not will myself to heaven, Me trusting in a God who made a promise and died for me is not me saving myself.

to say otherwise makes no sense

 

[Zaatar71]

That is my point with the Calvinists. No one was predestined to saved, they "whosoever will" were predestined to His plan to be conformed.

Do not be confused by the double talk that those who oppose these truths offer. Jesus is the elect servant , yes, We are chosen in Him, seen as asin saving union with Him. It is not anything to do with whosoever. It is God setting His love on those elected before time that makes the difference

How many times does the Scripture say, "whosoever will?"

It actually says everyone believing.... no matter what you say;
15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. God is the cause, not man.

 

[Charlie24]

Do not be confused by the double talk that those who oppose these truths offer. Jesus is the elect servant , yes, We are chosen in Him, seen as asin saving union with Him. It is not anything to do with whosoever. It is God setting His love on those elected before time that makes the difference


It actually says everyone believing.... no matter what you say;
15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. God is the cause, not man.

I know that my Bible says "whosoever will let him come." What says your theory?

 

[Zaatar71]

I know that my Bible says "whosoever will let him come." What says your theory?

Here is the actual text;
15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

I know that my Bible says "whosoever will let him come." What says your theory?

No theory, Just God will save the elect...no more, no less, no matter what you and the other deniers claim. There will be no non elect person in heaven.

 

[JonC]

well I see it this way sort of. All manner of sin is forgiven all men. But the sin of unbelief.

We differ in that they think he only died for the elect. I believe he died for everyone.

not sure what you mean here

Amen, this is 100% true. Adam died the moment he sinned, we can tell by how he lost knowledge of what and who God was (he tried to hide, he lied, and blame shifted) and his focus came off God and on self.

that is the result of spiritual death

I also believe Christ died for the entire human race.

I disagree that Adam died the moment he sinned. The reason is Scripture does not say this anywhere (if that were true I believe it would be in the text of Scripture we ate commanded to lean on).

What does the Bible actually say?

The potential consequences

" but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not [o]eat, for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die." (Gen 2:17).

Note, the verse does not say Adam will die on that day. It simply says on that day he will certainly die (death would be certain).

Add to that the fact that the Hebrew translated "day" is a word meaning "age" (as "in that day") and the consequences is "dying death".

The consequences realized

"Then the eyes of both of them were opened" (Gen 3:7)

God explains the resulting to Adam consequences

" you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” (Gen 3:19)

The only consequences actually to Adam, per God, is physical death.

God's Actions resulting from Adam's sin

"Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out with his hand, and take fruit also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken."

Adam had become like God knowing good and evil. God removed Him from Hos presence in the Garden and returned him to where he was created.


Now, this shows a separation. Adam was removed from the Garden where he enjoyed a unique relationship with God. BUT remember- Adam was NOT created in this Garden. He was returned from where he had been taken.

In 1 Cor 15 Paul explains that Adam was made a living being, but that he was natural man (not spiritual). Jesus, however, is spiritual man. First the natural and then the spiritual.

Where do you get the belief that Adam died spiritually, or was even created "spiritually alive".

 

[Charlie24]

Here is the actual text;
15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

No theory, Just God will save the elect...no more, no less, no matter what you and the other deniers claim. There will be no non elect person in heaven.

Ok, Z, you can explain that theory to the Lord when you meet Him.

 

[JonC]

Just God will save the elect...no more, no less, no matter what you and the other deniers claim. There will be no non elect person in heaven.

This is a partial truth.

Scripture does confirm that only the elect will enter God's kingdom.

BUT Scripture does not say God will save the elect. Scrioture says those who are saved are the elect.

The difference is easily seen when you look at Scripture describing the elect - the elect are those who have spiritual life, Christ in them, those who believe (2 Cor 13, 2 Pet 1)

What makes your faith a theory on this topic is it is contrary to Scripture. You assume that because those who are the elect have spiritual life that they were elect while dead in their trespasses.

It is extra-biblical because it is not in the Bible.
It is unbiblical, anti-Christian, because it stands in contrast to what God has said.

 

[Zaatar71]

This is a partial truth.

Scripture does confirm that only the elect will enter God's kingdom.

BUT Scripture does not say God will save the elect. Scrioture says those who are saved are the elect.

No. That is a complete denial of the scriptural record. This is not biblical whatsoever.

The difference is easily seen when you look at Scripture describing the elect - the elect are those who have spiritual life,

No, you are creating your own gospel.

Christ in them, those who believe (2 Cor 13, 2 Pet 1)

I have no idea what you mean, in fact I do not want to read your confused thoughts on this...this is horrible.

What makes your faith a theory on this topic is it is contrary to Scripture.

As long as you insist on calling biblical teaching a theory, it seems to me that you are in unbelief, I do not want to read such poorly thought out posts.

You assume that because those who are the elect have spiritual life that they were elect while dead in their trespasses.

Nd. Election took place before the world was. You miss it by miles.

It is extra-biblical because it is not in the Bible.

Lol, no it is you that is not in the bible,lol the teaching has been in the bible before either of us was even born!

It is unbiblical, anti-Christian, because it stands in contrast to what God has said.

Sorry. from such a bizarre post, I would encourage you to examine yourself; 2cor13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Your post indicates an apostasy from the living God, His truth, and His people.