Do Calvinists hold a different gospel?

[JonC]

Nd. That is a complete denial of the scriptural record. This is not biblical whatsoever.

No, you are creating your own gospel.

I have no idea what you mean, in fact I do not want to read your confused thoughts on this...this is horrible.


As long as you insist on calling biblical teaching a theory, it seems to me that you are in unbelief, I do not want to read such poorly thought out posts.

Nd. Election took place before the world was. You miss it by miles.

Lol, no it is you that is not in the bible,lol the teaching has been in the bible before either of us was even born!

Sorry. from such a bizarre post, I would encourage you to examine yourself; 2cor13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Your post indicates an apostasy from the living God, His truth, and His people.

I do not know what you mean by "scriptural record", but I take it you mean your theory as what I provided was actual Scripture.

Yes, my view is a departure from Calvinism as a whole, but what I have provided is actually what is written in God's Word.

Why do you think that Scripture itself indicates apostasy from the living God?

It seems that if anything would carry us away from God it would be philosophy rather than God's own words.

But you may be right in your conclusion that the god of Calvinism is not the God of the Bible. If so, however, it would not apply to all Calvinist (I was a Calvinist and a Christian).

If, as you say, men are carried away from the god you worship when they dismiss men's ideas about what the Bible teaches and instead lean on every word that comes from God then this is a good thing because they leave a dead philosophy and run towards God Himself.

I doubt most Calvinists lean on their own understanding and philosophy to that extent. Granted, if they do they are not saved. But I think most hold it with a grain of salt. They know better to lean on that understanding but instead trust in God's Word and despite their error Jesus will make them stand.

 

[Zaatar71]

I do not know what you mean by "scriptural record", but I take it you mean your theory as what I prov8ded was actual Scripture in opposition to your theory.

Why do you believe that God lied in the contents of Scripture and later revealed the truth to some men?

How is believing what is actually written in God's Word "apostasy"?

And, "apostasy" from what? Obviously not Scripture (that is what you have done).

Your posts are drifting further from the truth, day, by day. You do not see the drift, but we see it.

 

[Zaatar71]

I know that my Bible says "whosoever will let him come." What says your theory?

From the canons of dort;
Article 6 The fact that some receive from God the gift of faith within time, and that others do not, stems from his eternal decision. For all his works are known to God from eternity (Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:11). In accordance with this decision he graciously softens the hearts, however hard, of his chosen ones and inclines them to believe, but by his just judgment he leaves in their wickedness and hardness of heart those who have not been chosen.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I also believe Christ died for the entire human race.

I disagree that Adam died the moment he sinned.

then what happened to him, how did he forget God was omnipresent, he was omniscient, you could not hide from God or fool God because God did nto know. and why did he see himself as naked.

The reason is Scripture does not say this anywhere (if that were true I believe it would be in the text of Scripture we ate commanded to lean on).

What does the Bible actually say?

The potential consequences

" but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not [o]eat, for on the day that you eat from it you will certainly die." (Gen 2:17).

Note, the verse does not say Adam will die on that day. It simply says on that day he will certainly die (death would be certain).

lol. Sorry bro, this is nonsensical

On that day (the day you eat of it you will certainly die.

it did not say 900 years in the future after you eat.

it said on that day .

I was dead. while physically alive.

Jesus said I was dead in sin,, if sin made me dead. sin most certainly made adam dead.

I have to be born again, If I have to be born again, Adam most certainly needs to be born again because he sinned. (remember, his sin caused the fall of mankind)

Add to that the fact that the Hebrew translated "day" is a word meaning "age" (as "in that day") and the consequences is "dying death".

The consequences realized

"Then the eyes of both of them were opened" (Gen 3:7)

God explains the resulting to Adam consequences

" you are dust, and to dust you shall return.” (Gen 3:19)

The only consequences actually to Adam, per God, is physical death.

Then when adam died physically. He paid his sin debt, and he did not need christ to come to earth.

God's Actions resulting from Adam's sin

"Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out with his hand, and take fruit also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken."

Adam had become like God knowing good and evil. God removed Him from Hos presence in the Garden and returned him to where he was created.


Now, this shows a separation. Adam was removed from the Garden where he enjoyed a unique relationship with God. BUT remember- Adam was NOT created in this Garden. He was returned from where he had been taken.

In 1 Cor 15 Paul explains that Adam was made a living being, but that he was natural man (not spiritual). Jesus, however, is spiritual man. First the natural and then the spiritual.

Where do you get the belief that Adam died spiritually, or was even created "spiritually alive".

spiritual death literally means separation.

we are separated from God. we have no life in God. we are literally dead.

spiritual death is the basic premis of christianity. we must be born again, why? because we are dead.

If I am not dead. i do not need to be born again.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Your posts are drifting further from the truth, day, by day. You do not see the drift, but we see it.

we could say at least he has truth.

why don't you try to argue his points instead of attacking him like a child. Comments like this are childish and add nothing to the conversation

 

[Charlie24]

From the canons of dort;
Article 6 The fact that some receive from God the gift of faith within time, and that others do not, stems from his eternal decision. For all his works are known to God from eternity (Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:11). In accordance with this decision he graciously softens the hearts, however hard, of his chosen ones and inclines them to believe, but by his just judgment he leaves in their wickedness and hardness of heart those who have not been chosen.

The theory in action, but OK.

 

[JonC]

Your posts are drifting further from the truth, day, by day. You do not see the drift, but we see it.

You are right that I do not see it. Thus far I have only given you Scripture ("what is written" in God's Word)
Your complaint is not with me but with God for not including your theiru in the Biblical text.

As far as my belief, all you know of it is I believe we should not lean on our understanding but on every word that comes from God and we should be very careful not to be carried away by vain philosophy.

That is all you know of my belief because you never asked what I belueve and I never volunteered that information to you.

The reason I do not see a daily drift is there is no daily drift. I mentioned my belief a couple of weeks ago, so you have no basis for your evaluation.

You could go to that thread and challenge my belief, and you are welcome to of you would like.

But all I have pointed out is the fact that the theory you hold is not actually in God's Word.

You are just having a temper tantrum (you are emotional, which clouds your judgment).

 

[Zaatar71]

You are right that I do not see it. Thus far I have only given you Scripture ("what is written" in God's Word)

quoting a verse in an off topic way, has nothing to do with the discussions taking place. here is what you do over and over;

9 For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection. here is what is written!
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. here is what is written

Your complaint is not with me but with God for not including your theiru in the Biblical text.

the fact that you call truth theory shows you are detached from biblical reality

As far as my belief, all you know of it is I believe we should not lean on our understanding but on every word that comes from God and we should be very careful not to be carried away by vain philosophy.

You say that, but that is exactly what you post...your own understanding, 24/7

That is all you know of my belief because you never asked what I belueve and I never volunteered that information to you.

I am not even curious what is going on in your mind, as by your posts, I see mostly disjointed thoughts off topic.

The reason I do not see a daily drift is there is no daily drift. I mentioned my belief a couple of weeks ago, so you have no basis for your evaluation.

I have seen some of your posts, and I have seen how many are aghast at what you have posted.

You could go to that thread and challenge my belief, and you are welcome to of you would like.

I will stick to posts with biblical belief, you can have your own postings for you and a few who are interested. Thanks for the invitation however.

But all I have pointed out is the fact that the theory you hold is not actually in God's Word.

You show how you are blinded;
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

You are just having a temper tantrum (you are emotional, which clouds your judgment).

I am sure many are praying for you to recover out of the tailspin you are in, sort of like those ww2 movies where a plane has been hit, and is going down...like that!

 

[JonC]

quoting a verse in an off topic way, has nothing to do with the discussions taking place. here is what you do over and over;

9 For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection. here is what is written!
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. here is what is written



the fact that you call truth theory shows you are detached from biblical reality

You say that, but that is exactly what you post...your own understanding, 24/7

I am not even curious what is going on in your mind, as by your posts, I see mostly disjointed thoughts off topic.

I have seen some of your posts, and I have seen how many are aghast at what you have posted.

I will stick to posts with biblical belief, you can have your own postings for you and a few who are interested. Thanks for the invitation however.

You show how you are blinded;
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

I am sure many are praying for you to recover out of the tailspin you are in, sort of like those ww2 movies where a plane has been hit, and is going down...like that!

Again, you are just having an emotional temper tantrum.

We all know this for one glaring reason.

You do not know what I believe. You never asked. I never told you.

To prove this, I will simply point out that you cannot list even one part of my belief on this topic that is not directly in God's Word.

 

[Zaatar71]

Again, you are just having an emotional temper tantrum.

We all know this for one glaring reason.

You do not know what I believe. You never asked. I never told you.

To prove this, I will simply point out that you cannot list even one part of my belief on this topic that is not directly in God's Word.

Well, you can have your own private interpretation, and call people names, like suggesting Ken H might have been in Jeese Duplantis church. we see what you do, and will leave you to your own thoughts.

 

[JonC]

Well, you can have your own private interpretation, and call people names, like suggesting Ken H might have been in Jeese Duplantis church. we see what you do, and will leave you to your own thoughts.

??

I don't know @KenH 's pastor. I don't know anything about Jeese Duplantis exceot he is from Louisiana. I simoly asked him if that was the church he was talking about.

I never suggested it was. I wouldn't care if it was. I was simply asking.


I do have a belief of the Atonement. And I can defend that belief by testing it against God's Word.

BUT every Christian has presuppositions, theories, philosophies, etc that affects their understanding.
I do not lean on my understanding, but on every word that comes from God.

This means I would appreciate any correction to my understanding - but this correction HAS TO BE God's Word and not some men think. It has to pass the test we are commanded to use when evaluating doctrine.

Christians can and will disagree on doctrine. But their disagreement should be centered in God's Word.


You are avoiding my belief and God's Word.
You are just having a childish temper tantrum.

Truth is truth, regardless of people's feelings about that truth. And God's Word IS truth where men's theories, philosophies, theologies, etc. are subjective to the human experience.


If you can get it together then perhaps we can discuss God's Word. Until then, I am not sure that you are in a position to even have a logical conversation.

You just seem so offended that somebody would dare ask you to provide biblical passages stating what you believe.

 

[Zaatar71]

??

I don't know @KenH 's pastor. I don't know anything about Jeese Duplantis exceot he is from Louisiana. I simoly asked him if that was the church he was talking about.

I never suggested it was. I wouldn't care if it was. I was simply asking.


I do have a belief of the Atonement. And I can defend that belief by testing it against God's Word.

BUT every Christian has presuppositions, theories, philosophies, etc that affects their understanding.
I do not lean on my understanding, but on every word that comes from God.

This means I would appreciate any correction to my understanding - but this correction HAS TO BE God's Word and not some men think. It has to pass the test we are commanded to use when evaluating doctrine.

Christians can and will disagree on doctrine. But their disagreement should be centered in God's Word.


You are avoiding my belief and God's Word.
You are just having a childish temper tantrum.

Truth is truth, regardless of people's feelings about that truth. And God's Word IS truth where men's theories, philosophies, theologies, etc. are subjective to the human experience.


If you can get it together then perhaps we can discuss God's Word. Until then, I am not sure that you are in a position to even have a logical conversation.

You just seem so offended that somebody would dare ask you to provide biblical passages stating what you believe.

You can share your thoughts with Van and Charlie, they like what you offer. Good luck.

 

[JonC]

then what happened to him, how did he forget God was omnipresent, he was omniscient, you could not hide from God or fool God because God did nto know. and why did he see himself as naked.



lol. Sorry bro, this is nonsensical

On that day (the day you eat of it you will certainly die.

it did not say 900 years in the future after you eat.

it said on that day .

I was dead. while physically alive.

Jesus said I was dead in sin,, if sin made me dead. sin most certainly made adam dead.

I have to be born again, If I have to be born again, Adam most certainly needs to be born again because he sinned. (remember, his sin caused the fall of mankind)







Then when adam died physically. He paid his sin debt, and he did not need christ to come to earth.



spiritual death literally means separation.

we are separated from God. we have no life in God. we are literally dead.

spiritual death is the basic premis of christianity. we must be born again, why? because we are dead.

If I am not dead. i do not need to be born again.

Lol.....what I mean is the verse does not say Adam would die on that day.

It literally says that in that day (or age) death would be certain. This is clearer if you consider the original language, but it is true of the English as well.

I have heard this "spiritual death" being the separation Adam experienced. That is fair.

Scripture does tell us that God cast Adam out of the Garden (out of that relationship that Adam had enjoyed with God as He walked through that garden).

One issue here, though, is we need to be specific. Adam was not created in this Garden. So we woukd have to reason Adam was created, given spiritual life, then lost that spiritual life.

That is fair, and I would say it is a legitimate interpretation. We all kniw that sin forms a separation between God and man.

I would prefer a different term (so as not to confuse that "spiritual life" with the life that is only found in Christ, the one that is everlasting, that one has when born if the Spirit).

So although I do not like the term you use (I'd use "separation"...maybe "spiritual separation"), I agree that because of Adam's sin he became like God knowing good and evil, and so that he not eat of the Tree of Life God cast him out of His presence.

And we do experience this separation because of Adam's sin.


To answer your question, though, now we are shifting from "spiritual death" being this separation Adam experienced and us through his sin to life in Christ).

Paul explained that natural man comes first (Adam) and then spiritual man (Jesus). I am not sure that he explains why that is. He kinda just says it as a fact.

We have to be born of the Spirit because the flesh cannot please God (Rom 8:8) the flesh is corruptable but the spiritual is not (1 cor 15).

One way we can know without a doubt that Adam was mot "spiritually alive" as we use that term in the New Testament to mean a Spiritual birth is found in 1 Corinthians 15.

Paul describes Adam as created with a natural life but Jesus as Spiritual life. In 1 Cor 15 God tells us that while the fkesh is corruptable the spirit is not. Adam was corruptable, as he demonstrated.

We have to be born of the Spirit because we are flesh. We are, by nature, "spiritually dead".