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There is no reason to. The classic NT passages that speak to this topic, Eph. 1 and Romans 8-11, were written to believers explaining how it was that they came to be believers. I don't think we can be faulted for following that example.
I am using modern 'baptist terminology.' If you want me to use technical definitions for everything I say rather than what is simple then so be it:
That's not according to Calvinism. Why do you make stuff up? That's not very loving or kind.
Because God said to evangelize. What's wrong with obedience?
So? Unless you are an open theist, it is all determined anyway. Obedience to God sounds like a great reason to evangelize. As Paul says in 1 Cor 3, some plant and some water, but God gives the increase. It is God's job to save people. We are simply workers in his field.
Sad method of argumentation, to try to equate the other side with a false religion. Very very inappropriate and totally off base anyway. I don't think anyone is "hiding" what they believe. There are some things unbelievers don't understand. You don't teach everyone everything there is to know when they get saved. There is a lot that you still don't understand, even after however many years you have been following Christ, isn't there? Was someone "hiding" something from you because they didn't tell you everything there is to know at the beginning?
Yes, but "pre" "election" is saying the same thing twice. It is impossible to have a "post election." "Election" by definition is a choice beforehand. That was actually a minor point.
Several points to be made.
Did you study this passage to figure out who the "them" and "all" are? The "them" is Israel, and the "all" are Gentiles and Israel. God has committed Israel the nation to disobedience to bring his gospel to all nations. Be careful with teh verses you use to prooftext. I have found that most verses arminians quote don't actually support their position when you read them in their context.
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
I, and most Calvinists, are willing to let that stand as a testimony to our own ignorance.
Diane replies: Ah, a mystery! If you can answer questions with the term 'mystery', why can't any group or denomination who wants to make their point without scriptural proof?
Last night it was the non Calvinists who are ignorant, according to several other Calvinists.
2. God didn't determine that man couldn't believe. That is the result of man's own sinfulness. Again, please find out what Calvinism actually teaches before making these comments.
Diane replies: That's doublespeak, in my humble opinion. IF God elected those whom would accept Him, he elected those who would not. Man's inability to accept Christ then, according to this teaching, IS NOT MAN'S FAULT.
3. Sinners don't choose God. That is not God's fault. Their own sin is keeping them from doing that, and God is perfectly just to let them go.
Diane replies: Again, Calvinists say God elected those who would chose God, THEREFORE HE ALSO CHOSE THOSE who would not. It's a yes or no situation. Either God chose you or He didn't. That's all there is to it. No 'double predestination' to it! Either I choose you to be on my side for a game or leave you for the other captain.
The Bible says: For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God!
I have found that most verses arminians quote don't actually support their position when you read them in their context.
Diane replies: I agree with a few Calvinistic points and a few Arminian points. I don't accept either label.
You can, if you are using Scripture as I am. There are mysteries in theology, things that God has not revealed. That has never been the issue. When Scripture speaks, we believe it. We don't change it to fit our logical schemes.
The key word there is "in your opinion." My position is based on what Scripture says, and if that is different than your opinion, then I think we know which needs to change. You are incorrect in your assumption that IF God elected those whom would accept Him, he elected those who would not. Election is never used in such a way. You fail to realize that man is on his way to hell if God does nothing. God doestn' elect anyone to go to hell. That is where they are naturally going because of their sin nature. Your subsequent conclusion that Man's inability to accept Christ then, according to this teaching, IS NOT MAN'S FAULT is wrong on two fronts. First, it is wrong because it is a conclusion drawn from a faulty foundation (your first conclusion was dead wrong). Second, it is wrong because Scripture teaches the opposite, that man's inability is his own fault, not God's.
Yes, that is right. But when you "dont' choose" someone, you are not choosing them for the other team. Again, this insistence on your own mind's authority is wrong headed, no pun intended. Your mind and your thinking cannot take precedence over Scripture. God made no choice about those whom he did not choose. "Election" is never used of those going to hell.
Regardless of your acceptance, you are arminian by virtue of your denial of unconditional election. Saying you aren't either is like saying you aren't a woman. You can claim it, but the evidence shows otherwise. And there is nothing wrong with that. Arminian is simply the title that historical theology has attached to the position you hold. It doesn't do a lot of good to deny it.
To not choose for salvation is to select for hell! There's only two options; heaven or hell. Foreknowledge is used of those going to hell in your aforementioned verse in Revelation on another thread.
