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Do Calvinists Speak about Predestination in Evangelistic Preaching?
- Thread starter StefanM
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Jarthur001
Active Member
to anwser..NO
this is not the purpose of Calvin's teachings....to share who is the elect and who is not.
The purpose is for us to reach the lost and see their need better. when we understand the sinner better...and we understand God better we have a better vision of the lost.
Once we see the lost as calvin says the bible paints them...then we should have a larger burden to preach to them.
I have yet to hear a preacher say after a message...”opps...sorry...this message was for the elect only...you are not on the list....you need to leave NOW...for you can not be saved”
When someone responds to the gospel as it is preached in the Bible...this shows us that God has chosen to draw this person to Him. This is the only way WE can tell...not being God ourselives.
But...a sinner must see God as a holy God...and man as lost no good for nothing sinner. he must know hell is real...and he..even if good in deeds he is on his way to hell. sins do not send a man to hell...sin nature sends a man to hell. this is why one will still see a saved person sin from time to time. Now..if they live in sin...well...that is something else
when this view is seen..and this is the message of calvin...then salvation can happen.
preaching of the elect is NOT needed for salvation..but it helps us to win others that need salvation.
in Christ...James
[ July 10, 2005, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: Jarthur001 ]
Predestination and Election form only one part of Calvinism and it should be remembered that though inportant doctrines they primarily are given for the believers assurance and confort of their salvation. Predestination is not a major doctrine in the same category as Salvation by Grace through Faith, Incarnation of Christ, Virgin Birth, Resurrection, Trinity.
Predestination is not a cardinal doctrine. Having a wrong view of it want send you to Hell.
The Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, Article XVII Of Predestination and Election of the Church of England gives one of the most balanced views on this
Predestination is not a cardinal doctrine. Having a wrong view of it want send you to Hell.
The Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, Article XVII Of Predestination and Election of the Church of England gives one of the most balanced views on this
In other words the teaching of Predestination is given to the Saints for their comfort but it offers nothing to those who are unconverted and may confuse them. The unconverted need to be preached the Gospel NOT Predestination for this doctrine is given to the saints for their encouragement.
T
TexasSky
Guest
Well,
I have to agree with you on this Kiffen "The unconverted need to be preached the Gospel NOT Predestination "
I have to agree with you on this Kiffen "The unconverted need to be preached the Gospel NOT Predestination "
I imagine the disciples thought it was weird that a carpenter was telling them on which side of the boat to fish on but they obeyed.
I imagine Abraham thought it unspeakable to kill his own son but he obeyed.
I imagine Philip thought it weird to go into the barren desert- but he obeyed.
If you wait to understand God's total plan before you obey you almost never will. Just like faith- obedience must be done before comprehension.
I imagine Abraham thought it unspeakable to kill his own son but he obeyed.
I imagine Philip thought it weird to go into the barren desert- but he obeyed.
If you wait to understand God's total plan before you obey you almost never will. Just like faith- obedience must be done before comprehension.
I resent the tone and content of this post.
I have never hid predestination from any congregation I have preached to. If lost people are in the congregation and statistics tell us they always are then they hear about it.
The word of God does not return void. I for one Preach all of it.
That is untrue. It is unkind and unloving for you to say stuff like that. Of course man must accept Christ. Virtually the only people here who dispute that are primitive Baptists. They can defend themselves on that. I think they are dead wrong.
Calvinist and Armenian aren't opposed. One can be a Calvinist Armenian. One cannot be a Calvinist Arminian. Based on what you have said here, the position you hold is arminian.
So am I.
Yes indeed. That is the Calvinist gospel.
No one claims he does.
Diane, You have now been corrected on this three times I believe. Why do you keep repeating somethign that is not true? I didn't choose you to come over for dinner last night. That doesn't mean I chose you to go somewhere else. It simply means that I didn't choose you. You insist on adding to God's word.
I don't know of any place in Revelation where foreknowledge is used, much less in this manner. I have done a quick search and can't find it. Please tell me what you are talking about.
There is nothing to be sorry about. This is a discussion about Scripture. We talk about what it says and what it means. The Bible says that God chose you to salvation from the beginning. You say he didn't. What are we to make of that?
Yes it is, which is why it boggles my mind that you don't see it.
You are not an arminian because CAlvinists think so. You are an ariminian because of what you believe. The hinge of this issue is on unconditional election. You deny it. That makes you an arminian. Why are you so opposed to that? I would prefer not to be called a CAlvinist. What I believe is simply the gospel of Scripture revealed by God. But historically, a label got attached to it and so that is a label that tells you what I believe. It is simply a fact of history.
We don't want that label attached, but that label helps others to know what people believe. Being arminian or CAlvinist doesn't mean you buy the whole farm. It simply describes your view on how God works his salvation in the world. You are really making a mountain out of a mole hill.
D
dianetavegia
Guest
But Larry, this reasoning makes no sense. God KNOWS there are only two alternatives, salvation or damnation. To NOT chose someone for salvation IS TO CHOSE them for damnation. There's no purgatory or la-la land for those who are not selected.
I believe Calvinists are in the vast minority in Baptist churches but are more vocal. Do you know if there are any published stats?
No Stats available that I know of but the numbers are definitely increasing.
Here in Missouri we are beginning a Founder's Fraternal in Central Missouri. We will have our second meeting next week. We had 20 at the first meeting. Most of them are SBC Pastors from the Mid Missouri Area.
Here in Missouri we are beginning a Founder's Fraternal in Central Missouri. We will have our second meeting next week. We had 20 at the first meeting. Most of them are SBC Pastors from the Mid Missouri Area.
Which proves my point exactly. You are basing your theology, not on Scripture, but on reasoning.
Here is what Scripture says:
1. God chooses people to salvation (2 Thess 2:13; Eph 1:4; etc.)
2. God does not desire the death of the wicked (Ezek 18:33).
3. God does not choose people for hell (no Scripture indicates that he does; Scripture explicitly talks of election to salvation, not to hell).
You cannot understand how these fit together. I am perfectly willing to believe that God meant what he said with all of these things. You want to deny at least one of them, and instead force unbiblicaly and unnecessary implications for those who accept it.
Let me ask you this: Did you feel left out or passed over, or unchosen because I didn't invite you to dinner last night? I doubt it. You know good and well and that I did not choose you not to come. I made a choice that left you to do your own thing.
No it's not. They were going to damnation anyway because of their free choice to sin. YOu have a strange conundrum. You don't want God to intervene in man's free will, but then you object that he doesn't. That doesn't seem to fit.
I don't know any published stats. I know that the founder's movement in the SBC is growing. Historically, CAlvinists have been the most evangelistic in their outreach. I know of very few arminian churches that are planting churches and growing. The churches that are doing that that I know of are Calvinistic churches.
But what difference does it make? You surely don't believe that truth is decided by how many churches subscribe to something do you? Truth has always been rejected by people who want to preserve their own autonomy. I think that plays a huge role in this discussion.
D
dianetavegia
Guest
1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Whoops... gotta go for a while.
Whoops... gotta go for a while.
And??
D
dianetavegia
Guest
Pastor Larry, you've got about 10 questions in one post and I want to respond to them all. I'm going to work on my answers on a word file and then post it when I'm finished. I have 5 children for daycare today plus my own and they arrive in shifts. I'm expecting two more anytime now so I'm up and down.
No problem ... I wasn't sure what the relevance of the verse was to the discussion we were having.
D
dianetavegia
Guest
Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Here is what Scripture says:
1. God chooses people to salvation (2 Thess 2:13; Eph 1:4; etc.)
Diane replies: The Bible says in 1 Timothy 2:4, "God our Savior wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth."
It also states that God wants all men to be saved in 2 Peter 3:9, Matthew 23:37 and in Ezekiel 33:11 and 18:30. Not all say yes to the drawing of the Holy Spirit as is evidenced in the following verses.
Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? 4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: "That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged." 5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) 6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world? 7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?
The following scripture tells us that Jesus died for all and not just some pre selected group!
Romans 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2. God does not desire the death of the wicked (Ezek 18:33).
Diane replies: The Bible says in John 6:44, "no one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." The same word "draw" is used in John 12:32 which says, "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto myself."
Man can resist that drawing!
Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Romans 6: 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
3. God does not choose people for hell (no Scripture indicates that he does; Scripture explicitly talks of election to salvation, not to hell).
Diane replies: I agree with your first statement, BECAUSE God doesn’t elect for heaven either!
God gave them FREE WILL to sin but not FREE WILL to accept the gift of His SON? Why have Jesus come? Why have Jesus die such a horrible death if the ones to obtain heaven had already been selected? Is that not the most cruel action?
And YOU have a strange conundrum. You don't want God to intervene in man's free will to accept Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior by saying God 'elected' those He wanted, but then you object God doesn't elect others for hell. That doesn't fit. Heaven or Hell. There's only 2 options! If Calvinism is correct, either God elects men for heaven or He elects men for hell.
POLL: How many Calvinists on the board?
I consider myself to be a Calvinist. 39%
I do not consider myself to be a Calvinist. 61%
Here is what Scripture says:
1. God chooses people to salvation (2 Thess 2:13; Eph 1:4; etc.)
Diane replies: The Bible says in 1 Timothy 2:4, "God our Savior wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth."
It also states that God wants all men to be saved in 2 Peter 3:9, Matthew 23:37 and in Ezekiel 33:11 and 18:30. Not all say yes to the drawing of the Holy Spirit as is evidenced in the following verses.
Romans 3:3 For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? 4 Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: "That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged." 5 But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) 6 Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world? 7 For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner?
The following scripture tells us that Jesus died for all and not just some pre selected group!
Romans 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
2. God does not desire the death of the wicked (Ezek 18:33).
Diane replies: The Bible says in John 6:44, "no one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him." The same word "draw" is used in John 12:32 which says, "But I, when I am lifted up from the earth will draw all men unto myself."
Man can resist that drawing!
Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
Romans 6: 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
3. God does not choose people for hell (no Scripture indicates that he does; Scripture explicitly talks of election to salvation, not to hell).
Diane replies: I agree with your first statement, BECAUSE God doesn’t elect for heaven either!
Diane replies: According to you, I could know of the cross and know of the need for the cross and yet not be chosen as one of the elect. YES, if I knew you were feeding the hungry and I was starving for food, I’d feel left out and passed over. Would you preach a sermon and outright state that you are preaching only to those whom God elected?
Diane replies: God clearly tells us in Romans 11:32 that, "God has bound all men over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all."
God gave them FREE WILL to sin but not FREE WILL to accept the gift of His SON? Why have Jesus come? Why have Jesus die such a horrible death if the ones to obtain heaven had already been selected? Is that not the most cruel action?
And YOU have a strange conundrum. You don't want God to intervene in man's free will to accept Christ Jesus as Lord and Savior by saying God 'elected' those He wanted, but then you object God doesn't elect others for hell. That doesn't fit. Heaven or Hell. There's only 2 options! If Calvinism is correct, either God elects men for heaven or He elects men for hell.
Diane replies: No, I don’t think the truth is determined by how many follow a teaching but I noticed that the majority who replied in a poll here claim to be non Calvinists and yet the majority who post in the C/A forum are Calvinists. The silent majority, as it were...
POLL: How many Calvinists on the board?
I consider myself to be a Calvinist. 39%
I do not consider myself to be a Calvinist. 61%
Calvinism doesn't dispute that. If that is why you are rejecting Calvinism, then you need to give it up.
This is the direct answer to your question about God being at fault for peopel who don't believe. He is not at fault.
That verse doesn't actually say that. The "once for all" is a word that refers to "once for all time" not for all people. That would be said a different way. Howevewr, most Calvinists believe that Jesus death was sufficient for all sins for all time for all sinners. Man is kept from the redeeming power of hte atonement only by his own unwillingness.
Again, understanding what Calvinism actually teaches would reveal your objection to be unfounded.
The same word is used in John 21:11. Were those fished saved? Or will you admit that the word helkuo has different meanings in different contexts?
STudy the context and read the verse. In 6:44, the verse teaches that all who are drawn will be raised up. Therefore, the drawing is the guarantee of salvation. in 12:32, the context is Jews and Greeks, and Jesus refuses to see the Greeks, but says that after his crucifixion, all will be drawn, many Greeks too.
Diane, there is no gentle way to put this, but to say that this is a direct denial of Scripture. It is unconscionable. The Bible says that God chooses us to salvation, and the result of that is glorification (Rom 8:29-30; 2 Tim 2:10, etc). To say that God doesn't elect for heaven is to say that God lied. I don't think you want to do that. I don't think you intend that. But you have no other alternative.
Happens all the time. Judas walked with Christ for three years and knew it all and was not one of the elect.
HEre is the problem. The unelect aren't hungry for God. They aren't seeking him and do not desire him. That is, again, the plain teaching of Scripture.
Of course not because I never preach only to the elect. I preach to those who show up. Some are elect and some aren't.
They are free will to accept his Son. They can do that whenever they desire to, whenever they are willing. For all your talk about free will, you want to leave it out. Sin renders their free will free to sin. They don't want to do anything else.
No, it's not cruel at all. It is the act of a loving God redeeming those with no hope. Christ came because there was some elected. If no one was elected, then his death was in vain. No one will believe unless they are elected. For Christ to have come to a world of non-elect would have been a wasted death, and that is what would hvae been cruel.
You say I have a conundrum but then don't point it out. I have no problem with God intervening in man's free will. I have no problem with God not intervening. But you still have this nonsensical idea that election to something is also election to something else. It isn't. Even in something so simple as a presidential election (which is a flawed analogy in many ways), I voted for someone; I didn't vote for the other person to not be president. I didn't elect them at all. When God elects to salvation; he doesn't elect others to not be saved. They were already unsaved. God simply leaves them that way. Why is that hard for you to believe? Why do you continue with this nonsensical position that you have no Scripture for?
But again I ask what's the relevance? The silent majority may be silent wisely, because they don't know or can't defend their position. Many of them have a totally warped idea about what Calvinism is. And a poll on this board is not the least bit scientific or accurate. I didn't vote in it. What this polled revealed is that 39% of the people who bothered to answer would claim to be a Calvinist. They may or may not claim that rightly. I would be willing to bet that the primitives on here said they weren't. That means that people who believe in the sovereingty of God in salvation didn't claim the label that typically goes with them.
I also don't think that the majority of posters here are Calvinists. I think it is about 50-50 or maybe tilted slightly your way, but I haven't studied it so I don't know.
But again, all of that is irrelevant. The only thing we should be concerned with is what Scripture says, and on that, you have given no viable answers, even to something as simple as "God chose you from the beginning for salvation."
[ July 11, 2005, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
D
dianetavegia
Guest
And you've given no viable answers to 'all'.
John 5:36 But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish--the very works that I do--bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
Not willing to come.........
Okay... away for awhile again.
John 5:36 But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish--the very works that I do--bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
Not willing to come.........
No, it's a denial or YOUR interpretation of scripture. The Holy Spirit speaks otherwise to me and no 'bullying' with remarks such as that above will change my belief.
Okay... away for awhile again.