Do Calvinists Speak about Predestination in Evangelistic Preaching?

To "all" what?

Exactly my point. They are not being kept away by force. God didn't choose them to not come. They are being kept away only by their own willful sin. Why do you like it when you say it and object to it when I say it?

It has nothing to do with interpretation. The Bible says that God chose men for salvation. The Bible says the with election come "eternal glory." How do you explain that?

Does He? The Holy Spirit contradicts what the word of God says? I don't believe that at all, Diane. And I think you don't really believe that. I think you say that in order to avoid the conclusions that you don't want to come to. I am not trying to bully you, but I would not be a good brother in Christ if I didn't point out when someone does not handle the word properly.

There are various explanations to election that disagree with mine yet don't involve denying Scripture. Why not choose one of those?

 

I think you nailed why many Arminians have trouble with Calvinism in general.

 

Larry said: Exactly my point. They are not being kept away by force. God didn't choose them to not come. They are being kept away only by their own willful sin. Why do you like it when you say it and object to it when I say it?

Diane replies: God didn't choose them to not come??? That's a double negative. Either He choses or He doesn't. Heaven or hell.

Larry said: They are being kept away only by their own willful sin. Why do you like it when you say it and object to it when I say it?

Diane replies: AND those who respond do so willfully when they yield to the drawing of the Holy Spirit. (I won't use the word woo... )

Larry replied: It has nothing to do with interpretation. The Bible says that God chose men for salvation. The Bible says the with election come "eternal glory." How do you explain that?

Diane replies: The Bible says God is not willing that ANY should perish, whoever believes in Him, etc.... We're going round in circles here Larry. I've given these verses for days.

Larry replied: Does He? The Holy Spirit contradicts what the word of God says? I don't believe that at all, Diane. And I think you don't really believe that. I think you say that in order to avoid the conclusions that you don't want to come to. I am not trying to bully you, but I would not be a good brother in Christ if I didn't point out when someone does not handle the word properly.

Diane replies: I do not believe the Holy Spirit contradicts the Word of God. I think YOUR interpretation contradicts what the Holy Spirit shows me in scripture and yes I believe exactly what I say I believe. Scare tactics don't work with me. I'm firm in my faith and beliefs.

If you THINK you're correct, then it is your right to point out what YOU think scripture is saying just as it is my right to share my leadings.

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I have answered that ad nauseum. It is "all who believe." You cannot include those who are "unwilling" to come.

What was the point of all those verses? In them, a command is given to all with a qualification ... they must believe or come or will (or whatever as the case may be). In no place do you ever have salvation promised to those who won't believe. "All" is almost always qualified by something. That qualification is what you appear to be unwilling to accept.

We agree that "all who believe" or "whosoever will" or "all that come" are limited by the second half of the phrase (believe, will, come, etc).

Yes, God didn't choose them to not come. I said it that way to deny your assertion that he did choose them to not come. God chooses people to be saved. He makes no choice regarding others. They are condemned by their own sin.

Spoken like a true Calvinist.

Yes, and we have been answering them far longer than you have been giving them. You act like no Calvinist has ever heard these verses. We have, and we have given explanations. I take 2 Peter 3:9 just like Ezek 18:33, that God is not desiring teh death of the wicked. I have explained that over and over and over and over. I have dealt with the four major interpretations of that passage. And I even said a while back that Icthus almost made me change my position to the one that says "any" is a reference to the elect. Icthus made a very convincing case for it, even though he was trying to refute it.

 

Well I can't find the scripture you're referring to that I did not answer but here's some more in ref. to two scriptures you've used in several posts.

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Psalms 119:71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.


1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.


Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?


Ezekiel 18:30-32 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.


Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men,


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE world.


Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY man.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for ALL, then were all dead:


2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.


1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.

(Edited to add more verses.)

[ July 11, 2005, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]

 

Which again, just proves my position to be the correct one. Notice the progression from "foreknow" to "glorification." That shows that election is to heaven (which you denied). When you read this, it also becomes clear that there is no way out. All who are foreknown are eventually glorified. That means "foreknow" doesn't simply mean knowing before hand because God "foreknows" who won't believe as well, and they are not glorified.

You quoted this verse earlier and didn't tell us why. But again, when you read it, you notice that election precedes salvation. It doesn't help you; it refutes.

I didn't forget to include it. It is exactly consistent with what I have said. You have never answered this verse. It says that God chose us to salvation. You say God did not choose us to salvation. Which should we believe? The fact that our salvation comes through the preaching of the gospel is not debated. We agree on that. But you still have to address why you deny that God chose us to salvation when God says that he chose us to salvation. Was Paul freelancing here? Did Paul not say what God said?

 

Hardsheller,

If you don't "hide" it then my words are not addressed to you. Others on this thread, at the beginning of the thread, stated, flat out, they don't bring it up until later.

If this is sound theology - WHY NOT?

 

Whatever,

Obedience to God matters very much. And God makes MANY statements that mark acceptance of Christ as a requirement to salvation.

If acceptance or rejection are only lip service it is NOT obedience. It is being turned into a robot.

You people take a few words of scripture, lift them out of context, and go, "See, see!"

The rest of us take the entire letters, and read them, and go, "Oh, its simple. God offers grace to everyone, only some accept Christ. Those who do are predestined to rewards. Those who don't are predestined to hell."

You take it out of context and go, "God picks and chooses who can hear the message of Salvation."

The message you send to the world is that God sat in His heaven and deliberately turned His back on the majority of the world.

That is NOT what the bible teaches.

The bible teaches that the majority of the world turned their back on God.

 

According to 100 theologians and bible translators, the word predestined in Romans 8:29 is not even talking about salvation.

"Predestination here is to moral conformity. "

God knew that some would accept Christ.
God predestined that those who did accept Christ would live life according to the example set by Christ.
God predestined that those who live their life as Christ showed them how to live it, will be blessed with greatness in heaven.

By the way - 2 Thessalonians 2:13 actually reads, in many manuscripts, "As God chose you as his first fruits."

Look at 2 Thessalonians 2:10 please.
"and in every sort of evil that decieves those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

According to translation notes the word used in the Greek actually indicates a WILLFUL and INTENTIONAL act. They REFUSED.

Not, God didn't send the message to them.
Not, God didn't want them saved.
Not, God didn't choose them so they perished.

They REFUSED via a WILLFUL and INTENTIONAL ACTION.

It goes and says, "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickendness."

Look at that carefully folks.

They REFUSED to love the truth, and BECAUSE they REFUSED to love the truth, God sent the "lawless one" who will delude them" SO that those WHO HAVE NOT BELIEVED THE TRUTH...... will be condemened.

The FIRST step is ACCEPTANCE OR REFUSAL OF CHRIST.

 

The Bible that you claim to read and study says that God elects people to salvation. You can't just ignore that.

I have never heard anyone say this. Have you actually heard it? Or did you just make that up?

That is plainly false. God didn't turn his back on the majority of the world. The world turned their back on God in their sin.

I don't know where you got your number of 100 from, but I would imagine that number is pretty low. The real number is probably much higher than that. Of course, Rom 8:29 is talking about moral conformity. Did you read v. 30? That makes it clear that it is talking about salvation as a part of it. You can't just take passages out of context.

That argument was tried. And I pointed out the truth about it ... that it doesn't matter. He still chose you "to salvation," whether as "first fruits" or "from the beginning." This is typical of arminians. You try to change the subject by focusing on something that is irrelevant to the point at hand.

God says he "chose you to salvation." You say he didn't. Who should we believe?

That is what Calvinism teaches because that is what the Bible teaches.

 

Again, Pastor Larry, your interpretation and many disagree with you.

We're going to have to agree to disagree but I will go on record saying that I do believe Calvinists (who are saved) are Christians and will be in heaven. I consider you a brother in Christ, even tho we disagree on HOW we became brothers and sisters.

 

Diane, the "interpretation" line is far too easy a copout. When the Bible says "God chose you to salvation" there isn't much interpretation that can go on. We can debate who "God" is, what "chose" means, or what "salvation" is. But I think that we agree pretty much on that. I don't think we differ on who God is. I think we both know what "choose" means, and I think we agree on what "salvation" is. Where is the interpretive difference?

We can certainly agree to disagree, but I think Scripture has to be the center of any discussion and we have to talk about what it actually says. I consider you a sister in Christ and certainly bear no ill will towards you in the least.

 

Brother larry.

I would like to ask you something.

We see often in these debates post from some that will not use the word choosen, or try to change it's meaning. They never use the word election unless it is in a attach of the word. They post many things on Gods love which are great..yet they will not face those passages that all must deal with. It seems to me..they are afraid of the Word..or its meaning. or that is how i see it.

Being a soft calvin myself, when it comes to God love..there are a few passages i must address..and i try the best i can. But i do not pass them over.

Why do you think anyone would be afraid words found in the Bible? I can understand if they do not know the meaning..but to pass it over..time and time again..why is that?

just wanted your input on this.


Thanks...

In Christ..james

 

And you ignore this: For whom He foreknew...

I've answered every verse you provided but manytimes with scripture. I find scripture to carry more weight and matter much more than my own feelings, don't you?

 

Diane, Diane, Diane. This is the kind of response that makes me question whether or not people read, and whether or not they have any integrity. I am not questioning your integrity personally, but think about what you just said and read the post at the top of page 4. Far from ignoring this phrase, I addressed it clearly, and showed how the verse actually refutes your position. Yet for some inexplicable reason, you accuse me of ignoring that. Why? You know very well that I haven't ignored that verse. I can't imagine why you would say it. You are a better person than that, Diane.

And in every case, we have shown that your Scripture was either irrelevant or misinterpreted. And you still haven't dealt with the fact that "God chose you to salvation." The best you have done so far is quote the following verse about which we agree. That doesn't answer your problem. You have to explain why God says he chose us to salvation and you say he doesn't.

I find that to be very much the case and have argued consistently that we need to talk about Scripture. But you won't. You quote a bunch of verses that are quite often off topic. You offer no explanation as to how they support your point. And when you are asked, you just quote more verses. You seem to rarely actually address the questions. You have consistently argued based on your own feelings and own logic, rather than based on the word of God. Consider for instance your objection that if God chose certain people to be saved then he chose others to go to hell. As I pointed out, it is a statement based totally on logic, not on Scripture. The Bible declares that God chose certain people to go to be saved. The Bible stops there. You should to. You should not go on to add to it your own step of human logic.

 

Larry, If I give my opinion or state what I am led that scripture says, you attack me for relying on logic and feelings. If I only post Bible verses to answer you, you accuse me of coping out and not being able to answer you. You can't have it both ways.

Here's what others say to answer YOUR remark about foreknowledge and glorification.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false, 12 so that all will be condemned--those who did not believe the truth but enjoyed unrighteousness 13 But we must always thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God has chosen you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, so that you might obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Aren't you? It looks clear to me.

Do you question the integrity of these Biblical Scholars?

[ July 12, 2005, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]

 

No. As I said, I am not questioning your integrity personally. I was commenting on how something appeared, based on the fact that you said I did not do something when I had very clearly done that very thing, even on this same page.

No. I would question their handling of the text. For instance, look at Barton:

This is a clear mishandling of the text. In this passage, everyone who is "called" is justified and then glorified. There is no "called" who are not "justified and then glorified." For Barton to say that "there are many other called" is to change the meaning of "call" in the middle of the text.

Consider Wesley, bless his heart

He plainly added to Scripture in order to support his theology. The Scripture says nothign about justification being provisional on continuing in his goodness. Here, those justified are glorified. There is no way out.

These are just two example of shoddy handling of the text, done in order to support a predrawn conclusion. They can't handle this text justly because they hvae a greater priority--to maintain their theological system.

In the end, these guys are demonstrably wrong by simply reading the text. We can see that the text draws one continuous line, and does so without qualifications. Why isn't that good enough?

 

Yes, He makes many such statements. Calvinists believe that faith in Christ is required for salvation.

Faith in Christ is not "lip service", nor is it being "turned into a robot". No Calvinist believes that it is.

Not long ago I was a member of a church where most of the other members were non-Calvinists. The pastor began preaching through John. He did a respectable job until he got through John 6:40. I was really anticipating what he would do with John 6:44 the following Sunday. Can you guess what he did? Yep, he preached on some other passage, and never went back to his series on John. You can't preach John 6:44 and free will salvation at the same time. People see right through that.

You can say all you want but we both know that we can both find plenty of weak arguments and poor handling of scripture on both sides. There is no reason to act like you guys get it all right and we never do.

It is not what we teach either, which makes me wonder why you keep writing things that are not true.

That is what we teach too. You should know this by now.

 

Originally posted by Pastor Larry: No. As I said, I am not questioning your integrity personally. I was commenting on how something appeared, based on the fact that you said I did not do something when I had very clearly done that very thing, even on this same page.

Diane replies: You gave no scripture to prove your 'feelings' on foreknowledge, only what you THINK it means.

Your reply was

Diane replies: Opinion, opinion, opinion... and yet no one else is allowed to have an opinion without being told they are calling God a liar, are ignorant or lack integrity! I've even been told either I'm a Calvinist and don't know it or am unsaved.


Larry claims:

Diane submits: Agree. God knows ahead of time who will and will not surrender to the call to salvation made available to ALL through the death of Christ Jesus on Golgotha.

Pastor Larry replied: No. I would question their handling of the text. For instance, look at Barton:

Larry continues: This is a clear mishandling of the text. In this passage, everyone who is "called" is justified and then glorified. There is no "called" who are not "justified and then glorified." For Barton to say that "there are many other called" is to change the meaning of "call" in the middle of the text.

Diane submits: Judas was called as a disciple and not justified nor glorified. The rich man was called but refused to be justified and glorified.

Pastor Larry said: They can't handle this text justly because they hvae a greater priority--to maintain their theological system.

Diane replies: Are you not doing the very same thing?

 

man oh man. this is why i have gray hair