Do Calvinists Speak about Predestination in Evangelistic Preaching?

[Pastor Larry]

And you've given no viable answers to 'all'.

To "all" what?

Not willing to come.........

Exactly my point. They are not being kept away by force. God didn't choose them to not come. They are being kept away only by their own willful sin. Why do you like it when you say it and object to it when I say it?

No, it's a denial or YOUR interpretation of scripture.

It has nothing to do with interpretation. The Bible says that God chose men for salvation. The Bible says the with election come "eternal glory." How do you explain that?

The Holy Spirit speaks otherwise to me and no 'bullying' with remarks such as that above will change my belief.

Does He? The Holy Spirit contradicts what the word of God says? I don't believe that at all, Diane. And I think you don't really believe that. I think you say that in order to avoid the conclusions that you don't want to come to. I am not trying to bully you, but I would not be a good brother in Christ if I didn't point out when someone does not handle the word properly.

There are various explanations to election that disagree with mine yet don't involve denying Scripture. Why not choose one of those?

 

[JonathanDT]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
...Most Calvinists are willing to let the tension stand without forcing logical solutions on it. Most arminians are not.

I think you nailed why many Arminians have trouble with Calvinism in general.

 

[dianetavegia]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
To "all" what?

Diane answers: All as in every man, whoever, any, etc...

Matthew 11:28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Luke 13: 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

John 1:7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.

Matthew 10:32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.

Luke 12:8 "Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God.

I could go on but we're wasting time....

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Not willing to come.........

Larry said: Exactly my point. They are not being kept away by force. God didn't choose them to not come. They are being kept away only by their own willful sin. Why do you like it when you say it and object to it when I say it?

Diane replies: God didn't choose them to not come??? That's a double negative. Either He choses or He doesn't. Heaven or hell.

Larry said: They are being kept away only by their own willful sin. Why do you like it when you say it and object to it when I say it?

Diane replies: AND those who respond do so willfully when they yield to the drawing of the Holy Spirit. (I won't use the word woo... )

Diane said: No, it's a denial or YOUR interpretation of scripture.

Larry replied: It has nothing to do with interpretation. The Bible says that God chose men for salvation. The Bible says the with election come "eternal glory." How do you explain that?

Diane replies: The Bible says God is not willing that ANY should perish, whoever believes in Him, etc.... We're going round in circles here Larry. I've given these verses for days.

Diane said: The Holy Spirit speaks otherwise to me and no 'bullying' with remarks such as that above will change my belief.

Larry replied: Does He? The Holy Spirit contradicts what the word of God says? I don't believe that at all, Diane. And I think you don't really believe that. I think you say that in order to avoid the conclusions that you don't want to come to. I am not trying to bully you, but I would not be a good brother in Christ if I didn't point out when someone does not handle the word properly.

Diane replies: I do not believe the Holy Spirit contradicts the Word of God. I think YOUR interpretation contradicts what the Holy Spirit shows me in scripture and yes I believe exactly what I say I believe. Scare tactics don't work with me. I'm firm in my faith and beliefs.

If you THINK you're correct, then it is your right to point out what YOU think scripture is saying just as it is my right to share my leadings.

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[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
All as in every man, whoever, any, etc...

I have answered that ad nauseum. It is "all who believe." You cannot include those who are "unwilling" to come.

I could go on but we're wasting time....

What was the point of all those verses? In them, a command is given to all with a qualification ... they must believe or come or will (or whatever as the case may be). In no place do you ever have salvation promised to those who won't believe. "All" is almost always qualified by something. That qualification is what you appear to be unwilling to accept.

We agree that "all who believe" or "whosoever will" or "all that come" are limited by the second half of the phrase (believe, will, come, etc).

God didn't choose them to not come??? That's a double negative. Either He choses or He doesn't. Heaven or hell.

Yes, God didn't choose them to not come. I said it that way to deny your assertion that he did choose them to not come. God chooses people to be saved. He makes no choice regarding others. They are condemned by their own sin.

AND those who respond do so willfully when they yield to the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

Spoken like a true Calvinist.

Diane replies: The Bible says God is not willing that ANY should perish, whoever believes in Him, etc.... We're going round in circles here Larry. I've given these verses for days.

Yes, and we have been answering them far longer than you have been giving them. You act like no Calvinist has ever heard these verses. We have, and we have given explanations. I take 2 Peter 3:9 just like Ezek 18:33, that God is not desiring teh death of the wicked. I have explained that over and over and over and over. I have dealt with the four major interpretations of that passage. And I even said a while back that Icthus almost made me change my position to the one that says "any" is a reference to the elect. Icthus made a very convincing case for it, even though he was trying to refute it.

I think YOUR interpretation contradicts what the Holy Spirit shows me in scripture and yes I believe exactly what I say I believe. Scare tactics don't work with me. I'm firm in my faith and beliefs.[/qutoe]I have no doubt that your firm in your faith and beliefs. But that is really irrelevant. Sincerity and firmness is not the guarantee of being right. Conforming to God's word is the guarantee of being right.

Scripture is clear.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.
2 Timothy 2:10 10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

These two very clear verses refute your idea. In them we see that God's chooses people to salvation, and that choosing is prior to salvation. We also see that his choosing leads to heaven.

This is not about a particular interpretation. This is not a confusing verse. There aren't a lot of options. You either believe it or you don't.

I am not trying to scare you into anything. I am pointing out that God's Word says something different than you say. Now, if that doesn't scare you, then something is wrong. But that's another point.

If you THINK you're correct, then it is your right to point out what YOU think scripture is saying just as it is my right to share my leadings.

But any "leadings" have to conform to what God says. That is the hang up. You keep quoting Scripture I agree with, but won't answer the Scripture that you disagree with. That is problemmatic to a very high degree.

 

[dianetavegia]

Well I can't find the scripture you're referring to that I did not answer but here's some more in ref. to two scriptures you've used in several posts.

Larry presented:
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory


Diane replied with:
Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. 31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter." 37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


And Diane offers this one…
1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


Larry submitted:
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,


Diane replies… don’t forget to include the rest of the sentence!

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Larry submitted:
Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,


Diane replies… why did you stop there? Why would the elect need more steps than election?


Ephesians 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Psalms 119:71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.


1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that ANY should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.


Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?


Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?


Ezekiel 18:30-32 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.


Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men,


1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the WHOLE world.


Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY man.

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for ALL, then were all dead:


2 Corinthians 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.


1 Timothy 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time.

(Edited to add more verses.)

[ July 11, 2005, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Diane replied with:
Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Which again, just proves my position to be the correct one. Notice the progression from "foreknow" to "glorification." That shows that election is to heaven (which you denied). When you read this, it also becomes clear that there is no way out. All who are foreknown are eventually glorified. That means "foreknow" doesn't simply mean knowing before hand because God "foreknows" who won't believe as well, and they are not glorified.

1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

You quoted this verse earlier and didn't tell us why. But again, when you read it, you notice that election precedes salvation. It doesn't help you; it refutes.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,


Diane replies… don’t forget to include the rest of the sentence!

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I didn't forget to include it. It is exactly consistent with what I have said. You have never answered this verse. It says that God chose us to salvation. You say God did not choose us to salvation. Which should we believe? The fact that our salvation comes through the preaching of the gospel is not debated. We agree on that. But you still have to address why you deny that God chose us to salvation when God says that he chose us to salvation. Was Paul freelancing here? Did Paul not say what God said?

Diane replies… why did you stop there? Why would the elect need more steps than election? [/qutoe]I stopped there so as not to clutter up the whole page. V. 4 is the verse about election. Why do they need more steps? Becauwse of the way God works salvation. There are a number of steps, such as election, faith and repentance, justification, sanctification, etc. The Scriptures are clear about this. They "need more steps" because election is not salvation. Election is to salvation.

(Edited to add more verses.)

Why? Did you think I would disagree with any of them? Did you really think that we haven't answered all of these verses? You keep dodging the issues. You cite a lot of Scripture (that don't help your point), but refuse to address the verses that refute you. Why?

 

[TexasSky]

Hardsheller,

If you don't "hide" it then my words are not addressed to you. Others on this thread, at the beginning of the thread, stated, flat out, they don't bring it up until later.

If this is sound theology - WHY NOT?

 

[TexasSky]

Whatever,

Obedience to God matters very much. And God makes MANY statements that mark acceptance of Christ as a requirement to salvation.

If acceptance or rejection are only lip service it is NOT obedience. It is being turned into a robot.

You people take a few words of scripture, lift them out of context, and go, "See, see!"

The rest of us take the entire letters, and read them, and go, "Oh, its simple. God offers grace to everyone, only some accept Christ. Those who do are predestined to rewards. Those who don't are predestined to hell."

You take it out of context and go, "God picks and chooses who can hear the message of Salvation."

The message you send to the world is that God sat in His heaven and deliberately turned His back on the majority of the world.

That is NOT what the bible teaches.

The bible teaches that the majority of the world turned their back on God.

 

[TexasSky]

According to 100 theologians and bible translators, the word predestined in Romans 8:29 is not even talking about salvation.

"Predestination here is to moral conformity. "

God knew that some would accept Christ.
God predestined that those who did accept Christ would live life according to the example set by Christ.
God predestined that those who live their life as Christ showed them how to live it, will be blessed with greatness in heaven.

By the way - 2 Thessalonians 2:13 actually reads, in many manuscripts, "As God chose you as his first fruits."

Look at 2 Thessalonians 2:10 please.
"and in every sort of evil that decieves those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

According to translation notes the word used in the Greek actually indicates a WILLFUL and INTENTIONAL act. They REFUSED.

Not, God didn't send the message to them.
Not, God didn't want them saved.
Not, God didn't choose them so they perished.

They REFUSED via a WILLFUL and INTENTIONAL ACTION.

It goes and says, "For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickendness."

Look at that carefully folks.

They REFUSED to love the truth, and BECAUSE they REFUSED to love the truth, God sent the "lawless one" who will delude them" SO that those WHO HAVE NOT BELIEVED THE TRUTH...... will be condemened.

The FIRST step is ACCEPTANCE OR REFUSAL OF CHRIST.

 

[Pastor Larry]

The rest of us take the entire letters, and read them, and go, "Oh, its simple. God offers grace to everyone, only some accept Christ. Those who do are predestined to rewards. Those who don't are predestined to hell."

The Bible that you claim to read and study says that God elects people to salvation. You can't just ignore that.

You take it out of context and go, "God picks and chooses who can hear the message of Salvation."

I have never heard anyone say this. Have you actually heard it? Or did you just make that up?

The message you send to the world is that God sat in His heaven and deliberately turned His back on the majority of the world.

That is plainly false. God didn't turn his back on the majority of the world. The world turned their back on God in their sin.

According to 100 theologians and bible translators, the word predestined in Romans 8:29 is not even talking about salvation.

"Predestination here is to moral conformity. "

I don't know where you got your number of 100 from, but I would imagine that number is pretty low. The real number is probably much higher than that. Of course, Rom 8:29 is talking about moral conformity. Did you read v. 30? That makes it clear that it is talking about salvation as a part of it. You can't just take passages out of context.

will be blessed with greatness in heaven.

By the way - 2 Thessalonians 2:13 actually reads, in many manuscripts, "As God chose you as his first fruits."

That argument was tried. And I pointed out the truth about it ... that it doesn't matter. He still chose you "to salvation," whether as "first fruits" or "from the beginning." This is typical of arminians. You try to change the subject by focusing on something that is irrelevant to the point at hand.

God says he "chose you to salvation." You say he didn't. Who should we believe?

According to translation notes the word used in the Greek actually indicates a WILLFUL and INTENTIONAL act. They REFUSED.

Not, God didn't send the message to them.
Not, God didn't want them saved.
Not, God didn't choose them so they perished.

They REFUSED via a WILLFUL and INTENTIONAL ACTION.

That is what Calvinism teaches because that is what the Bible teaches.

 

[dianetavegia]

Again, Pastor Larry, your interpretation and many disagree with you.

We're going to have to agree to disagree but I will go on record saying that I do believe Calvinists (who are saved) are Christians and will be in heaven. I consider you a brother in Christ, even tho we disagree on HOW we became brothers and sisters.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Diane, the "interpretation" line is far too easy a copout. When the Bible says "God chose you to salvation" there isn't much interpretation that can go on. We can debate who "God" is, what "chose" means, or what "salvation" is. But I think that we agree pretty much on that. I don't think we differ on who God is. I think we both know what "choose" means, and I think we agree on what "salvation" is. Where is the interpretive difference?

We can certainly agree to disagree, but I think Scripture has to be the center of any discussion and we have to talk about what it actually says. I consider you a sister in Christ and certainly bear no ill will towards you in the least.

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />TexasSky

By the way - 2 Thessalonians 2:13 actually reads, in many manuscripts, "As God chose you as his first fruits."

That argument was tried. And I pointed out the truth about it ... that it doesn't matter. He still chose you "to salvation," whether as "first fruits" or "from the beginning." This is typical of arminians. You try to change the subject by focusing on something that is irrelevant to the point at hand.

God says he "chose you to salvation." You say he didn't. Who should we believe?

</font>

Brother larry.

I would like to ask you something.

We see often in these debates post from some that will not use the word choosen, or try to change it's meaning. They never use the word election unless it is in a attach of the word. They post many things on Gods love which are great..yet they will not face those passages that all must deal with. It seems to me..they are afraid of the Word..or its meaning. or that is how i see it.

Being a soft calvin myself, when it comes to God love..there are a few passages i must address..and i try the best i can. But i do not pass them over.

Why do you think anyone would be afraid words found in the Bible? I can understand if they do not know the meaning..but to pass it over..time and time again..why is that?

just wanted your input on this.


Thanks...

In Christ..james

 

[dianetavegia]

And you ignore this: For whom He foreknew...

I've answered every verse you provided but manytimes with scripture. I find scripture to carry more weight and matter much more than my own feelings, don't you?

 

[Pastor Larry]

And you ignore this: For whom He foreknew...

Diane, Diane, Diane. This is the kind of response that makes me question whether or not people read, and whether or not they have any integrity. I am not questioning your integrity personally, but think about what you just said and read the post at the top of page 4. Far from ignoring this phrase, I addressed it clearly, and showed how the verse actually refutes your position. Yet for some inexplicable reason, you accuse me of ignoring that. Why? You know very well that I haven't ignored that verse. I can't imagine why you would say it. You are a better person than that, Diane.

I've answered every verse you provided but manytimes with scripture.

And in every case, we have shown that your Scripture was either irrelevant or misinterpreted. And you still haven't dealt with the fact that "God chose you to salvation." The best you have done so far is quote the following verse about which we agree. That doesn't answer your problem. You have to explain why God says he chose us to salvation and you say he doesn't.

I find scripture to carry more weight and matter much more than my own feelings, don't you?

I find that to be very much the case and have argued consistently that we need to talk about Scripture. But you won't. You quote a bunch of verses that are quite often off topic. You offer no explanation as to how they support your point. And when you are asked, you just quote more verses. You seem to rarely actually address the questions. You have consistently argued based on your own feelings and own logic, rather than based on the word of God. Consider for instance your objection that if God chose certain people to be saved then he chose others to go to hell. As I pointed out, it is a statement based totally on logic, not on Scripture. The Bible declares that God chose certain people to go to be saved. The Bible stops there. You should to. You should not go on to add to it your own step of human logic.

 

[dianetavegia]

Larry, If I give my opinion or state what I am led that scripture says, you attack me for relying on logic and feelings. If I only post Bible verses to answer you, you accuse me of coping out and not being able to answer you. You can't have it both ways.

Here's what others say to answer YOUR remark about foreknowledge and glorification.

The called. These have been called by the gospel and have accepted the call. Many others are called, Jews and Gentiles, but only those who hear and obey are chosen (Matt. 20:16; 20:14). Paul uses the term of the latter class; those who hear and obey. The evidence that we are "the called" is that we love God. According to his purpose. This call was purposed from the time that God promised a Deliverer of the fallen race. 29. For whom he foreknew, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son. To foreknow and to predestinate are not the same thing. One is an act of foreknowledge, or knowing something before it occurs; the other is to decree something. We only have knowledge of the past, but God foresees the future even as he sees the past; foresees it, not because he has decreed it, but because there are no limitations on his knowledge. Augustine says: "There can be no predestination without foreknowledge; but there can be foreknowledge without predestination." Whom does God foreknow? Those who shall love God. As he looked into the future these were present to his mind; foreknown. What did he predestinate of them? Not that they should love God. Not that they should believe; nor that some should be saved and others damned; but that those who he saw beforehand would love God, should be conformed to the image of his Son. The only thing predestinated, or foreordained, is that those who love God as revealed in Christ shall become Christlike in life, and like Christ in eternity. This is the only decree in the passage. 30. Whom he predestinated. He now shows how this is accomplished for those thus foreknown as the lovers of God. He also called. They are "called" by the preaching of the gospel, as in 2 Thess. 2:14: "Whereunto he called you by our gospel." It is not stated that these alone are called. We know that many others are called. Justified. The called, accepting the call, are justified. Their sins are blotted out. Glorified. These are made heirs of eternal glory. As stated by Godet, the purpose of the whole passage may be expressed as follows: "I see thou dost love God; art a believer; I therefore decree of thee that thou shalt become like my Son and be glorified with him." The steps by which this is accomplished are calling, justification, and final glorification. Johnson, Barton W. "Commentary on Romans 8". "People's New Testament".

8:29 Whom he foreknew, he also predestinated conformable to the image of his Son - Here the apostle declares who those are whom he foreknew and predestinated to glory; namely, those who are conformable to the image of his Son. This is the mark of those who are foreknown and will be glorified, 2:19. Philippians 3:10,21.Wesley, John. "Commentary on Romans 8". "John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible".

Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Foreknew (proegnw). Second aorist active indicative of proginwskw, old verb as in Acts 26:5. See Psalms 1:6 (LXX) and Matthew 7:23. This fore-knowledge and choice is placed in eternity in Ephesians 1:4. He foreordained (prowrisen). First aorist active indicative of proorizw, late verb to appoint beforehand as in Acts 4:28; 1 Corinthians 2:7. Another compound with pro- (for eternity). Conformed to the image (summorpouß thß eikonoß). Late adjective from sun and morph and so an inward and not merely superficial conformity. Eikwn is used of Christ as the very image of the Father (2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15). See Philippians 2:6 for morph. Here we have both morph and eikwn to express the gradual change in us till we acquire the likeness of Christ the Son of God so that we ourselves shall ultimately have the family likeness of sons of God. Glorious destiny. That he might be (eiß to einai auton). Common idiom for purpose. First born among many brethren (prwtotokon en polloiß adelpoiß). Christ is "first born" of all creation (Colossians 1:15), but here he is "first born from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), the Eldest Brother in this family of God's sons, though "Son" in a sense not true of us.

He also called. They are "called" by the preaching of the gospel, as in 2 Thess. 2:14: "Whereunto he called you by our gospel." It is not stated that these alone are called. We know that many others are called. Justified. The called, accepting the call, are justified. Their sins are blotted out. Glorified. These are made heirs of eternal glory. As stated by Godet, the purpose of the whole passage may be expressed as follows: "I see thou dost love God; art a believer; I therefore decree of thee that thou shalt become like my Son and be glorified with him." The steps by which this is accomplished are calling, justification, and final glorification.
Johnson, Barton W. "Commentary on Romans 8". "People's New Testament".

Them he - In due time. Called - By his gospel and his Spirit. And whom he called - When obedient to the heavenly calling, Acts 26:19.He also justified - Forgave and accepted. And whom he justified - Provided they "continued in his goodness," Romans 11:22,he in the end glorified - St. Paul does not affirm, either here or in any other part of his writings. that precisely the same number of men are called, justified, and glorified. He does not deny that a believer may fall away and be cut off between his special calling and his glorification, Romans 11:22.Neither does he deny that many are called who never are justified. He only affirms that this is the method whereby God leads us step by step toward heaven. He glorified - He speaks as one looking back from the goal, upon the race of faith. Indeed grace, as it is glory begun, is both an earnest and a foretaste of eternal glory. Wesley, John. "Commentary on Romans 8". "John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible".

Like other facets of salvation, glorification is the work of God (Rom 8:30). To it believers are called (1 Thess 2:12; 1 Peter 5:10), brought (Heb 2:10), and foreordained (1 Cor 2:7). God both prepares us for glory (Rom 9:23) and prepares glory for us (1 Cor 2:9). It is ours by inheritance (Rom 8:17). At the same time, however, we have our part to play: glorification should be sought (Rom 2:7), and it will be wrought in us through our affliction and suffering (Rom 8:17; 2 Col 4:17; 2 Tim 2:10-11).

Glorification involves first of all the believer's sanctification or moral perfection (2 Thess 2:13-14; Heb 2:10-11), in which the believer will be made glorious, holy, and blameless (Eph 5:27). The process of sanctification is at work in us now (2 Cor 3:18) but moves from one degree of glory to another until it reaches final glory.

Second, the body participates in glorification (Rom 8:23; 1 Col 15:43; Php 3:21), which is the believer's deliverance and liberty (Rom 8:21). As a result, the glorified body is immortal (Rom 2:7), imperishable, powerful, and spiritual (1 Cor 15:43-44). Moreover, creation itself participates in this aspect of glorification (Rom 8:21).

In the third place, glorification brings participation in the kingdom of God (1 Thess 2:12), even to the point of our reigning with Christ (2 Tim 2:10-12).

Finally, glorification is in some sense a partaking of God's own glory (Rom 5:2; 1 Thess 2:12; 2 Thess 2:14; 1 Peter 5:10).
Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology. Edited by Walter A. Elwell
Copyright © 1996 by Walter A. Elwell.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and with every unrighteous deception among those who are perishing. They perish because they did not accept the love of the truth in order to be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe what is false, 12 so that all will be condemned--those who did not believe the truth but enjoyed unrighteousness 13 But we must always thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God has chosen you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, so that you might obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

integrity

Moral or ethical strength: character, fiber, honesty, principle.

The quality of being honest: honesty, honor, honorableness, incorruptibility, upstandingness.

The condition of being free from defects or flaws: durability, firmness, solidity, soundness, stability, strength, wholeness.

The state of being entirely whole: completeness, entirety, oneness, totality, wholeness.

Pastor Larry state: whether or not they have any integrity. I am not questioning your integrity personally

Aren't you? It looks clear to me.

Do you question the integrity of these Biblical Scholars?

[ July 12, 2005, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]

 

[Pastor Larry]

Aren't you? It looks clear to me.

No. As I said, I am not questioning your integrity personally. I was commenting on how something appeared, based on the fact that you said I did not do something when I had very clearly done that very thing, even on this same page.

Do you question the integrity of these Biblical Scholars?

No. I would question their handling of the text. For instance, look at Barton:

He also called. They are "called" by the preaching of the gospel, as in 2 Thess. 2:14: "Whereunto he called you by our gospel." It is not stated that these alone are called. We know that many others are called.

This is a clear mishandling of the text. In this passage, everyone who is "called" is justified and then glorified. There is no "called" who are not "justified and then glorified." For Barton to say that "there are many other called" is to change the meaning of "call" in the middle of the text.

Consider Wesley, bless his heart

And whom he justified - Provided they "continued in his goodness," Romans 11:22,he in the end glorified - St. Paul does not affirm, either here or in any other part of his writings. that precisely the same number of men are called, justified, and glorified.

He plainly added to Scripture in order to support his theology. The Scripture says nothign about justification being provisional on continuing in his goodness. Here, those justified are glorified. There is no way out.

These are just two example of shoddy handling of the text, done in order to support a predrawn conclusion. They can't handle this text justly because they hvae a greater priority--to maintain their theological system.

In the end, these guys are demonstrably wrong by simply reading the text. We can see that the text draws one continuous line, and does so without qualifications. Why isn't that good enough?

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Whatever,

Obedience to God matters very much. And God makes MANY statements that mark acceptance of Christ as a requirement to salvation.

Yes, He makes many such statements. Calvinists believe that faith in Christ is required for salvation.

If acceptance or rejection are only lip service it is NOT obedience. It is being turned into a robot.

Faith in Christ is not "lip service", nor is it being "turned into a robot". No Calvinist believes that it is.

You people take a few words of scripture, lift them out of context, and go, "See, see!"

The rest of us take the entire letters, and read them, and go, "Oh, its simple. God offers grace to everyone, only some accept Christ. Those who do are predestined to rewards. Those who don't are predestined to hell."

Not long ago I was a member of a church where most of the other members were non-Calvinists. The pastor began preaching through John. He did a respectable job until he got through John 6:40. I was really anticipating what he would do with John 6:44 the following Sunday. Can you guess what he did? Yep, he preached on some other passage, and never went back to his series on John. You can't preach John 6:44 and free will salvation at the same time. People see right through that.

You can say all you want but we both know that we can both find plenty of weak arguments and poor handling of scripture on both sides. There is no reason to act like you guys get it all right and we never do.

You take it out of context and go, "God picks and chooses who can hear the message of Salvation."

The message you send to the world is that God sat in His heaven and deliberately turned His back on the majority of the world.

That is NOT what the bible teaches.

It is not what we teach either, which makes me wonder why you keep writing things that are not true.

The bible teaches that the majority of the world turned their back on God.

That is what we teach too. You should know this by now.

 

[dianetavegia]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry: No. As I said, I am not questioning your integrity personally. I was commenting on how something appeared, based on the fact that you said I did not do something when I had very clearly done that very thing, even on this same page.

Diane replies: You gave no scripture to prove your 'feelings' on foreknowledge, only what you THINK it means.

Your reply was

Which again, just proves my position to be the correct one. Notice the progression from "foreknow" to "glorification." That shows that election is to heaven (which you denied). When you read this, it also becomes clear that there is no way out. All who are foreknown are eventually glorified. That means "foreknow" doesn't simply mean knowing before hand because God "foreknows" who won't believe as well, and they are not glorified.

Diane replies: Opinion, opinion, opinion... and yet no one else is allowed to have an opinion without being told they are calling God a liar, are ignorant or lack integrity! I've even been told either I'm a Calvinist and don't know it or am unsaved.


Larry claims:

That means "foreknow" doesn't simply mean knowing before hand because God "foreknows" who won't believe as well, and they are not glorified.

Diane submits: Agree. God knows ahead of time who will and will not surrender to the call to salvation made available to ALL through the death of Christ Jesus on Golgotha.

John 2:23 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did. 24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men, 25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.

Diane asked: Do you question the integrity of these Biblical Scholars?

Pastor Larry replied: No. I would question their handling of the text. For instance, look at Barton:

He also called. They are "called" by the preaching of the gospel, as in 2 Thess. 2:14: "Whereunto he called you by our gospel." It is not stated that these alone are called. We know that many others are called.

Larry continues: This is a clear mishandling of the text. In this passage, everyone who is "called" is justified and then glorified. There is no "called" who are not "justified and then glorified." For Barton to say that "there are many other called" is to change the meaning of "call" in the middle of the text.

Pastor Larry said: There is no "called" who are not "justified and then glorified."

Diane submits: Judas was called as a disciple and not justified nor glorified. The rich man was called but refused to be justified and glorified.

Mark 10:17 Now as He was going out on the road, one came running, knelt before Him, and asked Him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" 18 So Jesus said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. 19 You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery,' 'Do not murder,' 'Do not steal,' 'Do not bear false witness,' 'Do not defraud,' 'Honor your father and your mother.' " 20 And he answered and said to Him, "Teacher, all these things I have kept from my youth." 21 Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me." 22 But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

Luke 9:1 Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases.

EVEN JUDAS.... What about those who 'turned aside'? During their turning, were they being 'glorified, justified'? As example:

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

Pastor Larry said: They can't handle this text justly because they hvae a greater priority--to maintain their theological system.

Diane replies: Are you not doing the very same thing?

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Pre-election, before creation, elected to be one of the chosen.

man oh man. this is why i have gray hair