Do Catholics now believe in Faith Alone?

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
I have noticed that your posts continuously reveal certain problem with your faith, which raise the doubt about your salvation.

You're kidding, aren't you? Even those that disagree with me a lot here would be hard pressed to point to anything that brings into question my salvation.

Have you heard any answer brought by Catholic priests about their prayers?

No. I didn't ask. I have a life outside this board, you know, and it's doesn't involve being a message carrier for folks on the board.

 

[Chemnitz]

We only believe and remember that Jesus shed the blood at the Cross. The commemoration by the Bread and Wine is conducted in remembrance of Lord. You may say that Lutheran are similar to Transubstantiation, and Calvin was so. But as time goes on, people realized that Transubstantiation or Con-substantiation is not true. Bread and Wine just remind us of the death and the blood at the Cross.

Consubstantiation, now there is a term I loathe because it isn't even accurate of what Lutherans believe. Since I really don't want to hijack this thread I won't comment more on Holy Communion, but I can tell you they (RCC) do believe that Christ did die for all sins and that in the sacrifice of the mass they are recieving the body that was broken and the blood that was shed on the cross.

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:

We only believe and remember that Jesus shed the blood at the Cross. The commemoration by the Bread and Wine is conducted in remembrance of Lord.

Then I am afraid you are in error if you assume that that is all that communion is: from the earliest times (again, I would suggest you read some Ignatius) Christians have believed that Christ is present in the Eucharist; they have disagreed about exactly how He is present but the idea that He is present is...er...present right from the start.

 

[Eliyahu]

Both Chemnitz and Matt Black,

As for the Lord's Supper, there have been several explanation about it so far. Even Calvinists were not very different from RC's but in reality in these days, most of the protestant churches commemorate it as the Remembrance of His Body and Blood.

If you truly believe and want to prove that Bread becomes His body and Wine becomes His Blood, then you must prove it scientifically by showing the contents of the cup contains Hemoglobin and the bread became Protein of Human flesh.

Jesus Christ is present everywhere in the world, different from Mary who is dead and sleeping.

When Zwingli debated with Martin Luther about Consubstantiation, Martin Luther was not a partner to Zwingli regarding the Bible knowledge since Zwingli was by far expert in Bible. Luther just repeated the presence of Jesus and that Jesus said this is my body.

Are we less commemorating the death and blood shedding of Jesus by taking Bread and Wine only in Remembrance of Lord?

Why do you think Acts 20:7 say simply that they gathered together in order to take Bread, instead of breaking the body of Christ?

1 Cor 11: 26 says "eat this bread" till He comes.

I don't disagree that He is present at the Lord's Supper. We just remember Him by taking Lord's Supper. He is present with me all the time throughout my life. Isn't it true in your case ?

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
but I can tell you they (RCC) do believe that Christ did die for all sins . [/QB]

Then, Why do they ask God to forgive their sins again?

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Then, Why do they ask God to forgive their sins again?

I ask God to forgive my sins all the time. Most Christians do. Don't you?

 

[Eliyahu]

Then what was the Answer from God?

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Then what was the Answer from God?

Answer the question. Don't you ask God to forgive your sins on aperiodic basis. Most Christians do, since they commit sins on a periodic basis.

 

[Eliyahu]

I don't ask the forgiveness!
Now you answer me!

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
I don't ask the forgiveness!

Okay, that's a bit odd, but okay.

Now you answer me!

Your question has nothing to do with the topic. In fact, your question makes no sense. But when someone asks for forgiveness, God forgives them.

 

[Eliyahu]

Your confession reveals that you have never received the Answer from God!
If you have ever receved the Answer from God after you prayed God to forgive your sins, then you would not have said so, because God answers that your sins were forgiven already 2000 years ago ! There is no other Gospel than what Jesus did for us!

 

[Eliyahu]

I can imagine that you are just repeating the same prayer to get the forgiveness all the time, but never received the clear answer from God!

What was the actual and clear Answer from God?

 

[Eliyahu]

This relates to the Topic, because this deals with Faith Alone, in which depth?

In a certain sense, RC may be right in saying Faith Alone, but it is just in human depth, not in the depth of Holy Spirit!

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
I can imagine that you are just repeating the same prayer to get the forgiveness all the time, but never received the clear answer from God!

You know what the bible says about vain imaginations. You dont' even know what my prayer life is like. You're being quite judgemental in this area. Actually, you're not reapy making sense in your attempt to denounce asking for forgiveness.

What was the actual and clear Answer from God?

What God tells me in my personal prayer life is none of your business. Scripture is clear that if acknowlege my sins before Him, and ask for forgiveness of my sins, then my sins are forgiven. I fail to see how you can argue that.

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
This relates to the Topic, because this deals with Faith Alone, in which depth?

Asking for forgiveness is a separate topic from Faith in Christ alone.

In a certain sense, RC may be right in saying Faith Alone, but it is just in human depth, not in the depth of Holy Spirit!

Again, the issue of depth is a separate topic from faith alone.

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Your confession reveals that you have never received the Answer from God!

So if I confess my sins to God, I haven't received an answer fro God? What kinds of pharisaical mentality is that???

If you have ever receved the Answer from God after you prayed God to forgive your sins, then you would not have said so, because God answers that your sins were forgiven already 2000 years ago ! There is no other Gospel than what Jesus did for us!

You're completely confusing what Jesus did once, and what we are called to do. You're in effect, saying that, since Jesus does for my sins, then I dont' have to ask forgiveness. That's completely backwards theology.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Johnv:

[qb]

What was the actual and clear . Scripture is clear that if acknowlege my sins before Him, and ask for forgiveness of my sins, then my sins are forgiven. I fail to see how you can argue that.

I have checked many of your posts which disagreed with me, and found you are not born-again! even though you posted over 15,000!

Where does Bible say that you ASK for Forgiveness?

What was the ANSWER FROM GOD, WHEN HE FOGAVE YOUR SINS?

Did God say to you that your prayer is enough, now I am gonna forgive you?


Your arguments are typical ones of those who never tasted the actual Salvation even though they know very much about Christianity theoretically.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Eliyahu,
Thankfully John won't be judged by you (or your peculiar interpretation of Scripture), but both of you (and the rest of us as well) will be judged by CHRIST Himself. It is supremely arrogant of you to pontificate about John's salvation as if you can peer into his heart. (Of course, now you'll probably turn around and declare that I'm not saved either...but you know what? It really mattereth not what thou thinkest.)

Your arguments are typical ones of those who never tasted the actual Salvation even though they know very much about Christianity theoretically.

I guess one can just as easily make that charge against you as well. It's pretty easy for one to sit back behind a computer and damn someone else with his keyboard.
DT

 

[Chemnitz]

Johnv, eliyahu doesn't ask for forgiveness because he believes he is perfect. Can't you see that?

If you truly believe and want to prove that Bread becomes His body and Wine becomes His Blood, then you must prove it scientifically by showing the contents of the cup contains Hemoglobin and the bread became Protein of Human flesh.

Now this is just plain stupid. We can not prove scientifically that God created the heavens and the earth in six days but we believe that because He said He did. Why then should we have to prove scientifically His presence in, with, and under the bread and wine of Holy Communion?

When Zwingli debated with Martin Luther about Consubstantiation, Martin Luther was not a partner to Zwingli regarding the Bible knowledge since Zwingli was by far expert in Bible. Luther just repeated the presence of Jesus and that Jesus said this is my body.

You're right Martin Luther was not a partner to Zwingli. He was Zwingli's superior, because he was well versed enough to know that we cannot understand nor explain the ways and means of God and that we just have to take Him at His word. Not everything can be understood or explained "scientifically."

Second, Luther would not have defended "consubstantiation" because the term says things Luther did not. Con means with and Luther never simply said with when delving into the nature of the Lord's Supper. Luther stated in, with, and under the bread and the wine. This is a short hand way of saying that we cannot hope to explain how the Body and Blood are present but we know and truat that it is because the Lord said it is so, to say anymore would be to try to explain that which is not explained in Scripture but is accepted by faith.

1 John 1:8-10 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I confess daily that I am a sinner and I trust that God is faithful and just and will forgive my sins.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
[ QB] Johnv, eliyahu doesn't ask for forgiveness because he believes he is perfect. Can't you see that ?

You are making a false accusation without understanding what I meant.
Did I say that I am perfect?
I confess my sins everyday! but don't ask for the forgiveness! Have you ever found that you should ask for the forgiveness after you are saved?
If you have ever prayed sincerely until you get the Answer from God, God would have answered you saying that your sins were forgiven already.

I knew from the other thread that you don't have such experience actually.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________
I confess daily that I am a sinner and I trust that God is faithful and just and will forgive my sins .
___________________________________________________________________________________________________

Do you believe that God WILL forgive your sins?

He has already forgiven your sins at the Cross !

How much stubborn you are !

You should look at yourself, before you call me " STUPID" because it will return to you!

 

[Chemnitz]

I knew from the other thread that you don't have such experience actually.

Then once again you prove your ignorance. God answers me everyday through His promises in His word, when the Pastor announce that God is faithful to His word and forgives me of my sin, and when He offers me His body and blood in, with, and under the bread and the wine.

You should look at yourself, before you call me " STUPID" because it will return to you!

I never said that you are stupid only the statement. It already does, everytime I compare my intelligence to God's, I realize how much there is that I can never hope to understand.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
Now this is just plain stupid.

How would you escape from this statement?