Do Catholics now believe in Faith Alone?

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
I knew from the other thread that Then once again you prove your ignorance. God answers me everyday through His promises in His word, when the Pastor announce that God is faithful to His word and forgives me of my sin, and when He offers me His body and blood in, with, and under the bread and the wine.


Do you mean that you are forgiven when Pastor anounce ? or when He offers me His body and blood in ? When does the forgiveness take place?

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Doubting Thomas:
[QB] Eliyahu,
Thankfully John won't be judged by you (or your peculiar interpretation of Scripture), but both of you (and the rest of us as well) will be judged by CHRIST Himself. It is supremely arrogant of you to pontificate about John's salvation as if you can peer into his heartQB ]

How could Paul say this ?

Phil 4:2 I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord. 3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life .

How could John say this ?
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us

How could you preach the gospel to the nominal churchmen who are not actually born-again?

Have you ever examine yourself this way?
2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you , except ye be reprobates.

You may say yes! But so many people will go to Jesus with the expectation that they enter the heaven, but will be denied by Jesus this way:


Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity

 

[Linda64]

Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone!! (Eph.2:8-9) Any addition to that is not salvation--it is works. (Gal. 3:1; Rom.11:6)

The forgiveness of sins was paid for through the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross over 2000 years ago. When Jesus died on the cross, He said "IT IS FINISHED" (John 19:30). All our sins, past, present and future were paid IN FULL--Jesus bore all our sins in His body on the tree (1 Peter 2:24). We have a promise in 1 John 1:9:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Jesus Christ is our Mediator and our Advocate/Lawyer before the very throne of the Father (Hebrews 4:14-16)

Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

1 John 2:1-2 is a precious promise also:

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

PROPITIATION *

Propitiation means satisfaction; covering; the fulfillment of a demand. It refers to God's estimation of Christ's sacrifice. God is fully satisfied by what Jesus Christ did on the Cross. The penalty for His broken law and man's sin has been fully satisfied (Ro 3:24-25; 1Jo 2:2; Heb 2:17; Isa 5:11). The Greek word translated "propitiation" (Ro 3:25) is also translated "mercy seat" in Heb 9:5. The mercy seat perfectly covered the law which was contained in the Ark (Ex 25:17,21). This symbolizes propitiation-Christ covering the demands of God's law. That it is the blood of Christ which put away our sins was depicted on the Day of Atonement when blood was sprinkled on the mercy seat by the high priest (Le 16:11-17).

* Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bible

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Both Chemnitz and Matt Black,

As for the Lord's Supper, there have been several explanation about it so far. Even Calvinists were not very different from RC's but in reality in these days, most of the protestant churches commemorate it as the Remembrance of His Body and Blood.

Again, you betray your ignorance by this inaccurate statement. The following Protestant churches, which by far represent the majority of Protestants, believe in more than just mere memorialism: Anglicans/ Episcopalians, Methodists of various hues, Lutherans, Calvinists/ Presbyterians of various types, Baptists historically but not recently. If you don't believe me, have a look at the following confessional/ credal documents of these denominations:-

Reformation and post-Reformation creeds and confessions
Lutheran – Augsburg Confession (1530)

Article IX: Of Baptism.
Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God's grace.
They condemn the Anabaptists, who reject the baptism of children, and say that children are saved without Baptism.
Article X: Of the Lord's Supper.
Of the Supper of the Lord they teach that the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present, and are distributed to those who eat the Supper of the Lord; and they reject those that teach otherwise.
Anglican – 39 Articles (1571)

Article 25 - The Sacraments
Sacraments ordained of Christ are not only badges or tokens of Christian men's profession, but rather they are certain sure witnesses and effectual signs of grace and God's good will towards us, by which He works invisibly in us, and not only quickens, but also strengthens and confirms, our faith in Him.
There are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel, that is to say, Baptism and the Supper of the Lord.
Those five, commonly called Sacraments, that is to say, Confirmation, Penance, Orders, Matrimony, and Extreme Unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel, being such as have grown partly of the corrupt following of the Apostles, partly are states of life allowed in the Scriptures; but yet have not the like nature of Sacraments with Baptism and the Lord's Supper, for that they have not any visible sign or ceremony ordained of God.
The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon or to be carried about, but that we should duly use them. And in such only as worthily receive the same, have they a wholesome effect or operation: but they that receive them unworthily, purchase to themselves damnation, as S. Paul said.
Article 26 - The unworthiness of Ministers does not hinder the effect of the Sacraments
Although in the visible Church the evil be ever mingled with the good, and sometime the evil has chief authority in the ministration of the word and sacraments; yet because they do not do so in their own name, but in Christ's, and minister by His commission and authority, we may use their ministry both in hearing the word of God and in the receiving of the sacraments. Neither is the effect of Christ's ordinance taken away by their wickedness, nor the grace of God's gifts diminished from those who by faith and rightly receive the sacraments ministered unto them, which are effectual because of Christ's institution and promise, although they are ministered by evil men.
Nevertheless it is part of the discipline of the Church that inquiry be made of evil ministers, and that they be accused by those that have knowledge of their offences; and finally, being found guilty by just judgement, be deposed.
Article 27 - Baptism
Baptism is not only a sign of profession and mark of difference by which Christian men are discerned from other that be not christened, but is also a sign of regeneration or new birth, whereby, as by an instrument, they that receive baptism rightly are grafted into the Church; the promises of the forgiveness of sin, and of
our adoption to be the sons of God, by the Holy Spirit are visibly signed and sealed; faith is confirmed, and grace increased by virtue of prayer unto God. The baptism of young children is in any wise to be retained in the Church as most agreeable with the institution of Christ.
Article 28 - The Lord's Supper
The Supper of the Lord is not only a sign of the love that Christians ought to have among themselves, one to another, but rather it is [also] a sacrament of our redemption by Christ's death: to those who rightly, worthily, and with faith receive it, the bread that we break is a partaking of the body of Christ, and likewise the cup of blessing is a partaking of the blood of Christ.
Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of bread and wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Scripture, but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthrows the nature of a Sacrament, and has given occasion to many superstitions.
The body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten in the Supper, only after an heavenly and spiritual manner. And the means by which the body of Christ is received and eaten in the Supper is faith
The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was not by Christ's ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up, or worshipped.
Article 29 - The wicked which do not eat the body of Christ, in the use of the Lord's Supper
The wicked and those who are void of a lively faith, although they do carnally and visibly press with their teeth (as S. Augustine said) the sacrament of the body and blood of Christ, yet in no wise are they partakers of Christ, but rather to their condemnation do eat and drink the sign or sacrament of so great a thing.
Article 30 - Both Kinds
The Cup of the Lord is not to be denied to the lay people; for both parts of the Lord's sacrament, by Christ's ordinance and commandment, ought to be ministered to all Christian men alike.


Presbyterian/ Calvinist/ Reformed – Wesminster Confession (1647)
Chapter XXVII
Of the Sacraments
I. Sacraments are holy signs and seals of the covenant of grace,[1] immediately instituted by God,[2] to represent Christ and His benefits; and to confirm our interest in Him:[3] as also, to put a visible difference between those that belong unto the Church and the rest of the world;[4] and solemnly to engage them to the service of God in Christ, according to His Word.[5]
II. There is, in every sacrament, a spiritual relation, or sacramental union, between the sign and the thing signified: whence it comes to pass, that the names and effects of the one are attributed to the other.[6]
III. The grace which is exhibited in or by the sacraments rightly used, is not conferred by any power in them; neither does the efficacy of a sacrament depend upon the piety or intention of him that does administer it:[7] but upon the work of the Spirit,[8] and the word of institution, which contains, together with a precept authorizing the use thereof, a promise of benefit to worthy receivers.[9]
IV. There are only two sacraments ordained by Christ our Lord in the Gospel; that is to say, Baptism, and the Supper of the Lord: neither of which may be dispensed by any, but by a minister of the Word lawfully ordained.[10]
V. The sacraments of the Old Testament in regard to the spiritual things thereby signified and exhibited, were, for substance, the same with those of the new.[11]
Chapter XXVIII
Of Baptism
I. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ,[1] not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church;[2] but also to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace,[3] of his ingrafting into Christ,[4] of regeneration,[5] of remission of sins,[6] and of his giving up unto God, through Jesus Christ, to walk in the newness of life.[7] Which sacrament is, by Christ's own appointment, to be continued in His Church until the end of the world.[8]
II. The outward element to be used in this sacrament is water, wherewith the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the Gospel, lawfully called thereunto.[9]
III. Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but Baptism is rightly administered by pouring, or sprinkling water upon the person.[10]
IV. Not only those that do actually profess faith in and obedience unto Christ,[11] but also the infants of one, or both, believing parents, are to be baptized.[12]
V. Although it is a great sin to contemn or neglect this ordinance,[13] yet grace and salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can be regenerated, or saved, without it:[14] or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly regenerated.[15]
VI. The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered;[16] yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongs unto, according to the counsel of God's own will, in His appointed time.[17]
VII. The sacrament of Baptism is but once to be administered unto any person.[18
Chapter XXIX
Of the Lord's Supper
I. Our Lord Jesus, in the night wherein He was betrayed, instituted the sacrament of His body and blood, called the Lord's Supper, to be observed in His Church, unto the end of the world, for the perpetual remembrance of the sacrifice of Himself in His death; the sealing all benefits thereof unto true believers, their spiritual nourishment and growth in Him, their further engagement in and to all duties which they owe unto Him; and, to be a bond and pledge of their communion with Him, and with each other, as members of His mystical body.[1]
II. In this sacrament, Christ is not offered up to His Father; nor any real sacrifice made at all, for remission of sins of the quick or dead;[2] but only a commemoration of that one offering up of Himself, by Himself, upon the cross, once for all: and a spiritual oblation of all possible praise unto God, for the same:[3] so that the popish sacrifice of the mass (as they call it) is most abominably injurious to Christ's one, only sacrifice, the alone propitiation for all the sins of His elect.[4]
III. The Lord Jesus has, in this ordinance, appointed His ministers to declare His word of institution to the people, to pray, and bless the elements of bread and wine, and thereby to set them apart from a common to an holy use; and to take and break the bread, to take the cup, and (they communicating also themselves) to give both to the communicants;[5] but to none who are not then present in the congregation.[6]
IV. Private masses, or receiving this sacrament by a priest, or any other alone;[7] as likewise, the denial of the cup to the people,[8] worshipping the elements, the lifting them up, or carrying them about, for adoration, and the reserving them for any pretended religious use; are all contrary to the nature of this sacrament, and to the institution of Christ.[9]
V. The outward elements in this sacrament, duly set apart to the uses ordained by Christ, have such relation to Him crucified, as that, truly, yet sacramentally only, they are sometimes called by the name of the things they represent, to wit, the body and blood of Christ;[10] albeit, in substance and nature, they still remain truly and only bread and wine, as they were before.[11]
VI. That doctrine which maintains a change of the substance of bread and wine, into the substance of Christ's body and blood (commonly called transubstantiation) by consecration of a priest, or by any other way, is repugnant, not to Scripture alone, but even to common sense, and reason; overthrows the nature of the sacrament, and has been, and is, the cause of manifold superstitions; yes, of gross idolatries.[12]
VII. Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements, in this sacrament,[13] do then also, inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally but spiritually, receive and feed upon, Christ crucified, and all benefits of His death: the body and blood of Christ being then, not corporally or carnally, in, with, or under the bread and wine; yet, as really, but spiritually, present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.[14]
VIII. Although ignorant and wicked men receive the outward elements in this sacrament; yet, they receive not the thing signified thereby; but, by their unworthy coming thereunto, are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, to their own damnation. Wherefore, all ignorant and ungodly persons, as they are unfit to enjoy communion with Him, so are they unworthy of the Lord's table; and cannot, without great sin against Christ, while they remain such, partake of these holy mysteries,[15] or be admitted thereunto.[16]
Baptist – London Baptist Confession (1689)

28. Baptism and the Lord's Supper
1. Baptism and the Lord's Supper are ordinances of positive and sovereign institution, appointed by the Lord Jesus, the only lawgiver, to be continued in His Church to the end of the world.
2. These holy appointments are to be administered only by those who are qualified and called to administer them, according to the commission of Christ.
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29. Baptism
1. Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, to be to the person who is baptised - a sign of his fellowship with Christ in His death and resurrection; of his being engrafted into Christ; of remission of sins; and of that person's giving up of himself to God, through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life.
2. Those who actually profess repentance towards God, faith in, and obedience to, our Lord Jesus Christ, are the only proper subjects for this ordinance.
3. The outward element to be used in this ordinance is water, in which the person is to be baptised in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
4. Immersion - the dipping of the person in water - is necessary for the due administration of this ordinance.
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30. The Lord's Supper
1. The Supper of the Lord Jesus was instituted by Him the same night on which He was betrayed to be observed in His churches until the end of the world for the perpetual remembrance, and showing forth of the sacrifice of Himself in His death. It was also instituted by Christ to confirm believers in all the benefits of His death; - for their spiritual nourishment and growth in Him; - for their further engagement in and commitment to all the duties which they owe to Him; - and to be a bond and pledge of their communion with Him and with their fellow believers.
2. In this ordinance Christ is not offered up to His Father, nor is there any real sacrifice made at all for remission of sin (of the living or the dead). There is only a memorial of that one offering up of Christ by Himself upon the cross once for all, the memorial being accompanied by a spiritual oblation of all possible praise to God for Calvary. Therefore, the popish sacrifice of the mass, as they call it, is most abominable, being injurious to Christ's own sacrifice, which is the only propitiation for all the sins of the elect.
3. The Lord Jesus has, in this ordinance, appointed His ministers to pray and bless the elements of bread and wine (so setting them apart from a common to a holy use) and to take and break the bread, then to take the cup, and to give both to the communicants, also communicating themselves.
4. The denial of the cup to the people, the practices of worshipping the elements, lifting them up or carrying them about for adoration, or reserving them for any pretended religious use, are all contrary to the nature of this ordinance, and to the institution of Christ.
5. The outward elements in this ordinance which are correctly set apart and used as Christ ordained, so closely portray Him as crucified, that they are sometimes truly (but figuratively) referred to in terms of the things they represent, such as the body and blood of Christ. However in substance and nature they still remain truly and only bread and wine as they were before.
6. The doctrine commonly called transubstantiation, which maintains that a change occurs in the substance of the bread and wine into the substance of Christ's body and blood, when consecrated by a priest or by any other way, is repugnant not only to Scripture but even to common sense and reason. It overthrows the nature of the ordinance, and both has been and is the cause of a host of superstitions and of gross idolatries.
7. Worthy receivers, outwardly taking the visible elements in this ordinance, also receive them inwardly and spiritually by faith, truly and in fact, but not carnally and corporally, and feed upon Christ crucified, and all the benefits of His death. The body and blood of Christ is not present corporally or carnally but it is spiritually present to the faith of believers in the ordinance, just as the elements are present to their outward senses.
8. All ignorant and ungodly persons who are unfit to enjoy communion with Christ are equally unworthy of the Lord's Table, and therefore cannot without great sin against Him, take a share in these holy mysteries or be admitted to the Supper while they remain in that condition. Indeed those who receive (the elements) unworthily, are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, eating and drinking judgement to themselves.
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Methodist – 25 Articles of Religion (1808)

Article 16—Of the Sacraments
Sacraments ordained of Christ are not only badges or tokens of Christian men's profession, but rather they are certain signs of grace, and God's good will toward us, by which he doth work invisibly in us, and doth not only quicken, but also strengthen and confirm, our faith in him.
There are two Sacraments ordained of Christ our Lord in the Gospel; that is to say, Baptism and the Supper of the Lord.
Those five commonly called sacraments, that is to say, confirmation, penance, orders, matrimony, and extreme unction, are not to be counted for Sacraments of the Gospel; being such as have partly grown out of the corrupt following of the apostles, and partly are states of life allowed in the Scriptures, but yet have not the like nature of Baptism and the Lord's Supper, because they have not any visible sign or ceremony ordained of God.
The Sacraments were not ordained of Christ to be gazed upon, or to be carried about; but that we should duly use them. And in such only as worthily receive the same, they have a wholesome effect or operation; but they that receive them unworthily, purchase to themselves condemnation, as St. Paul saith.
Article 17—Of Baptism
Baptism is not only a sign of profession and mark of difference whereby Christians are distinguished from others that are not baptized; but it is also a sign of regeneration or the new birth. The Baptism of young children is to be retained in the Church.
Article 18—Of the Lord's Supper
The Supper of the Lord is not only a sign of the love that Christians ought to have among themselves one to another, but rather is a sacrament of our redemption by Christ's death; insomuch that, to such as rightly, worthily, and with faith receive the same, the bread which we break is a partaking of the body of Christ; and likewise the cup of blessing is a partaking of the blood of Christ.
Transubstantiation, or the change of the substance of bread and wine in the Supper of our Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Writ, but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions.
The body of Christ is given, taken, and eaten in the Supper, only after a heavenly and spiritual manner. And the mean whereby the body of Christ is received and eaten in the Supper is faith. The Sacrament of the Lord's Supper was not by Christ's ordinance reserved, carried about, lifted up, or worshiped.
Article 19—Of Both Kinds
The cup of the Lord is not to be denied to the lay people; for both the parts of the Lord's Supper, by Christ's ordinance and commandment, ought to be administered to all Christians alike.
Evangelical United Brethren Church (1963)
Article 6—The Sacraments
We believe the Sacraments, ordained by Christ, are symbols and pledges of the Christian's profession and of God's love toward us. They are means of grace by which God works invisibly in us, quickening, strengthening and confirming our faith in him. Two Sacraments are ordained by Christ our Lord, namely Baptism and the Lord's Supper.
We believe Baptism signifies entrance into the household of faith, and is a symbol of repentance and inner cleansing from sin, a representation of the new birth in Christ Jesus and a mark of Christian discipleship.
We believe children are under the atonement of Christ and as heirs of the Kingdom of God are acceptable subjects for Christian Baptism. Children of believing parents through Baptism become the special responsibility of the Church. They should be nurtured and led to personal acceptance of Christ, and by profession of faith confirm their Baptism.
We believe the Lord's Supper is a representation of our redemption, a memorial of the sufferings and death of Christ, and a token of love and union which Christians have with Christ and with one another. Those who rightly, worthily and in faith eat the broken bread and drink the blessed cup partake of the body and blood of Christ in a spiritual manner until he comes.

If you truly believe and want to prove that Bread becomes His body and Wine becomes His Blood, then you must prove it scientifically by showing the contents of the cup contains Hemoglobin and the bread became Protein of Human flesh.

I don't think anyone other than possibly the Catholics believe that. Most Christians believe that Christ is spiritually present in the bread and wine; there's no need to physically prove anything IMO.

When Zwingli debated with Martin Luther about Consubstantiation, Martin Luther was not a partner to Zwingli regarding the Bible knowledge since Zwingli was by far expert in Bible.

No he wasn't! Zwingli's error was in misinterpreting the Latin word sacramentum

Luther just repeated the presence of Jesus and that Jesus said this is my body.

Yep! And if Jesus said it, then that's good enough for me too!

Are we less commemorating the death and blood shedding of Jesus by taking Bread and Wine only in Remembrance of Lord?

You're not in anyway commemorating Jesus' sacrifice any the less by doing it that way, no, but as I've said, communion is so much more than that, and you're missing out.

Why do you think Acts 20:7 say simply that they gathered together in order to take Bread, instead of breaking the body of Christ?

1 Cor 11: 26 says "eat this bread" till He comes.

And why do think Jesus Himself demands that we eat His flesh and drink His blood in John 6:32-61?

 

[Melanie]

What an awesome post Matt...it rivals some of the regular posters of novella size posts!

 

[Chemnitz]

Do you mean that you are forgiven when Pastor anounce ? or when He offers me His body and blood in ? When does the forgiveness take place?

I'll keep this simple, trusting in the promises of Christ:

I receive all of His grace in the Water and Word of Holy Baptism. Rm 6,1 Pt 3:21

I receive all of His grace in the eating and drinking of His Body and Blood. mt 26:26-27

I receive all of His grace when the Pastor who as a called and ordained servant of the Word acts by the command and in the stead of Jesus Christ to pronounce forgiveness of sins. Mt 16:19


I am still waiting to hear why Christ's presence must be proven "scientifically" when 6 day creation is not held up to the same standard.

 

[Eliyahu]

Matt,
Again, you betray your ignorance by this inaccurate statement. The following Protestant churches, which by far represent the majority of Protestants, believe in more than just mere memorialism: Anglicans/ Episcopalians, Methodists of various hues, Lutherans, Calvinists/ Presbyterians of various types, Baptists historically but not recently. If you don't believe me, have a look at the following confessional/ credal documents of these denominations :-

Simply saying, I disagree with you because I have never met any Protestant believing Transubstantiation or any other belief similar to it. If we discuss about that in depth, they claim the same belief as I mention as Memorial or Remembrance.

Please note that RCC practice the pagan practice of Babylonians and Egyptians who worshiped their gods with cookies. This is why RCC tortured and killed so many true Christian believers.

Come out of her, my people (Rev 18:4)

Look at this:
http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1676.cfm
http://www.lietuvos.net/istorija/katalikai/

If you don't hate them, you will enjoy it eternally in the Hell!

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
I am still waiting to hear why Christ's presence must be proven "scientifically" when 6 day creation is not held up to the same standard . [/QB]

No one can go back to thousands of years to find out how God created the world.

However, if anyone claims that the statue of Mary bleed the blood, then one can collect that blood and test it. Some people did it and found it as the blood of men, and the others tested the blood from another statue of Mary and found it as Blood of a pig.

Likewise, if anyone claim that the Wine turns into Blood by the Magic Show of the Catholic Priests, it is very simple to know whether it is true or not, by testing the contents of the cup which was wine before the prayer and turned into blood after the prayer.
Is it impossible as much as you cannot prove how the creation of the world was ?

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Simply saying, I disagree with you because I have never met any Protestant believing Transubstantiation or any other belief similar to it. If we discuss about that in depth, they claim the same belief as I mention as Memorial or Remembrance.

You have not met them, but they exist.

A vast majority of Protestants believe in the Real Presence of Christ in Communion. Transubstantiation is the Catholic explanation of what happens when the Real Presence of Christ is in the bread and the cup.

While Protestants do not subscribe to transubstantiation, many Protestant groups do believe in the Real Presence of Christ and that it isn't simply a symbolic memorial. This includes the Lutheran, Presbyterian, Reformed and Methodists traditions.

 

[Eliyahu]

Whenever I talked with Presbyterians they confess that they don't follow Westminster Confession exactly and that they remember Him by the Bread and Wine.

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:

Simply saying, I disagree with you because I have never met any Protestant believing Transubstantiation or any other belief similar to it. If we discuss about that in depth, they claim the same belief as I mention as Memorial or Remembrance.

Then you really, really need to get out more.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Whenever I talked with Presbyterians they confess that they don't follow Westminster Confession exactly and that they remember Him by the Bread and Wine.

Then you are talking to Presbyterians who disagree with the vast majority of their denomination about the bread and the wine. I'm sure they exist and I respect their right to disagree, but I wouldn't use them as representative of a whole denomination.

 

[Eliyahu]

Matt,

Are you claiming that Presbyterians follow the Transubstantiation ?

Your own post betrays your arguments :

V. The outward elements in this sacrament, duly set apart to the uses ordained by Christ, have such relation to Him crucified, as that, truly, yet sacramentally only, they are sometimes called by the name of the things they represent, to wit, the body and blood of Christ;[10] albeit, in substance and nature, they still remain truly and only bread and wine, as they were before .[11]
VI. That doctrine which maintains a change of the substance of bread and wine, into the substance of Christ's body and blood (commonly called transubstantiation) by consecration of a priest, or by any other way, is repugnant, not to Scripture alone, but even to common sense, and reason; overthrows the nature of the sacrament, and has been, and is, the cause of manifold superstitions; yes, of gross idolatries .[12]

 

[Eliyahu]

Calvin wrote that Lord Supper should be performed at least once a week in his book, but none of Presbyterian church keep that today, IMO.

But what I am sure is that they consider it as Remembrance of Lord, instead of Transubstantion by Magic Show !

 

[Chemnitz]

Please note that RCC practice the pagan practice of Babylonians and Egyptians who worshiped their gods with cookies. This is why RCC tortured and killed so many true Christian believers.

And do you have any sources that are not anti-rcc propogandists?

Likewise, if anyone claim that the Wine turns into Blood by the Magic Show of the Catholic Priests, it is very simple to know whether it is true or not, by testing the contents of the cup which was wine before the prayer and turned into blood after the prayer.
Is it impossible as much as you cannot prove how the creation of the world was ?

If you follow the Aristotilian philosophy behind the explanation of Transubstantiation to its logical conclusion, lab studies would be insufficient to detect any changes as the outward form still exists.

Secondly, putting aside RCC abuses of the sacrament, Christ only promised the presence of His body and blood within the sacrament as it is eaten and drunk. So any testing which would occur outside of eating and drinking would be useless as it is outside of the sacrament as it was instituted.

What does a majority have to do with validity? Besides they are right, eliyahu, you need to get out more, I can name at least 400 that I know personally who confess to believe in the Real Presence, and there are other that I personally do not know. They number somewhere around 10 million in the U.S. alone.

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Whenever I talked with Presbyterians they confess that they don't follow Westminster Confession exactly and that they remember Him by the Bread and Wine.

Then they're not proper Presbyterians.

 

[Matt Black]

Originally posted by Eliyahu:
Matt,

Are you claiming that Presbyterians follow the Transubstantiation ?

No, where did I say they did? Only Catholics believe in transubstantiation. But the majority of Protestants believe in the spiritual presence and/ or spiritual reception of the Body and Blood of Christ in eating and drinking the bread and wine, including Presbyterians.

 

[Kiffen]

I think Eliyahu is equating believing in the REAL PRESENCE is the same as transubstantiation. That is not so. Only Roman Catholics believe in transubstantiation. The Eastern Orthodox while believing in the Real Presence reject transubstantiation as a Western idea.

As Matt has correctly shown, most Protestants including Baptists in the 1600's believed in some form of the real presence. I personaly hold Calvin's view of the spiritual presence and 1 Cor. 10:16 certaintly says we are having communion with the body and blood of Christ.

I am reminded of a Pastor when serving the Lord's Supper that he kept repeating to his congregation "This is not the Body of Christ" "This is not the Blood of Christ"

Only problem was he was refuting Jesus words.

 

[Eliyahu]

Yes, I do believe that Lord is present at the Supper as the most Protestants do.
Christ is omnipresent and is everywhere in the world and even in me. Do you believe this?

The only problem which I pointed out with RCC is the Transubstantiation, which is a magic show,IMV. converting Bread into flesh and Wine into Blood.

 

[Chemnitz]

Yes, I do believe that Lord is present at the Supper as the most Protestants do.
Christ is omnipresent and is everywhere in the world and even in me. Do you believe this?

I believe Christ is omnipresent, but the presence you believe is not the presence Christ promises. The presence that Christ promises is that which can be physically received with the elements of bread and wine. The presence which you speak of cannot be physically received.