1689Dave
Well-Known Member
I think if it produces Holy Spirit faith in our heart, we know it is true even if not understood.
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Do Christians Believe they have received Divine truth ?
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
YIKES that is the same approach the Mormons take....
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
They don't have the Holy Spirit. Does the Spirit bear witness with our spirit giving us faith when hearing the word?
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I would say, "No...not at first", especially to the part I have emphasized in bolded text.
For example, in my experience I did not always understand the full extent of subjects like the "Trinity", the "Virgin Birth", the different doctrines of the faith like "Justification by Faith" and "Salvation by Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone in Christ Alone"....and many others until later in my life as a believer.
Sometimes much later.
But as I spent more and more time alone in His word, I believe that He has rewarded me with a deeper understanding of those very subjects.
Scriptures being built upon one another, precept upon precept.
To me, belief of the actual words was the second step ( after my belief of the word of God through the preaching of the Gospel ) towards many others, and a willingness to believe what the words state, is what is at the center of anyone who is saved.
As an example of this, I see the Lord speaking about His body and blood in John 6, and telling the crowd about "eating His flesh and drinking His blood".
Most reacted in either shock, amazement, perhaps disgust, or they found it hard to accept:
" From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God." ( John 6:66-69 ).
What was Peter's attitude?
He knew Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God, and he was at least willing to stick by Him, because He trusted that His words were the words of eternal life.
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I didn't say that they did, but your logic is not safe or sound.
Exactly right. You are touching on several areas that are thought provoking as you work through different places people are in their growth and understanding. Good post DG.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I'm seeing something in Dave's way of thinking that is a lot like mine.
To me, one person's sound logic can be another's complete illogic...I see it all the time on this board.
For example:
Holy Spirit-produced faith is what I see happening in the life of a believer, while false "faith" is what is produced in the life of someone who only professes Christ, but does not have the Holy Spirit ( Romans 8:5-11 ).
So, true faith is a fruit of the Spirit ( thanks for pointing that one out to me, Dave ).
However, the concept of "producing faith"...
Let me see if I can find Scripture for that one:
Romans 10:17
Galatians 3:2
1 Thessalonians 2:13
Hebrews 4:2
I see that, yes, true faith is "produced" in God's children by the "hearing" of the word.
It works in conjunction with the Spirit to produce a growing faith.
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I'm seeing something in Dave's way of thinking that is a lot like mine.
To me, one person's sound logic can be another's complete illogic...I see it all the time on this board.
For example:
Holy Spirit-produced faith is what I see happening in the life of a believer, while false "faith" is what is produced in the life of someone who only professes Christ, but does not have the Holy Spirit ( Romans 8:5-11 ).
So, true faith is a fruit of the Spirit ( thanks for pointing that one out to me, Dave ).
I agree, but if that is what we are using solely as our determination if something is correct I take issue. How do we know we are being led correctly? How do we know someone else is being led correctly? How do we know it is actually of the spirit? To me that seems too much like mysticism or perhaps I just don't understand what you are saying.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
Objectively?
I would need to answer your questions above one by one, from Scripture.
For now, I'll state this:
To me, only a true believer can know if someone else is a believer...but it can be done, and God does command His children to withdraw from those who have a form of godliness, but deny the power ( the Spirit's power ) "thereof" ( 1 Timothy 3:5 ).
Else, how can believers follow His command?
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I read Dave's original statement to be talking about different interpretations and such, not faith in general.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I wasn't reading it as determining who is or is not a believer.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
You don't think determining whether or not someone is a true believer is possible?
I think it can be difficult, but not impossible.
*EDIT*
Wait a sec...now I think I know where you're going.
Never mind, my mistake
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Having the witness of the Spirit is not sound practice?
I think the problem comes in when people professing to be Christians claim to have been led to divine truth by God, but upon examination that truth is not found in the Scriptures.
You offer one good example where this is not the case - the foctrine that God is a triune God. One can say this is divine truth and it can be evidenced that Father, Son, and Spirit comprise the One Godhead vis Scripture alone. BUT it would be another thing to expound on this doctrine to include philosophical aspects that most of us include as truth to be "divine truth" (the nature of the hypostatic union, the kenosis, etc) because Scripture does not go that far.
Speaking as a Calvinist, I believe God led me to my understanding but at the same time I do not believe that Calvinism is divine truth because it goes farther than does Scripture and addresses questions that Scripture does not address with answers Scripture provides in a different context.
There seems to be two types of Calvinists (Arminians, Free-will theologians, etc). One type knows they have been given divine truth in Scripture and that their understanding is an understanding of this divine truth. Spurgeon described himself this way. Another type believes that their understanding itself is divine truth given by God. Jim Jones seems to have held this idea.
The belief that one's understanding itself is divine truth is also not safe or sound. Scripture is objective, people's understanding is not.
You cannot speak for other peoples understanding. You can only speak for your own.
There are two reasons your posts are dishonest.
First, I already affirmed that when Christians offer Scripture they are offering divine truth. I said that Scripture - not our understanding- is divine truth.
Did you not know that Jesus saying one must be born again IS Scripture???????? I suspect you did.
Second, you complained about me stating Christians should not hold their understanding as divine truth when the OP states "When Christians interact on a message board do they post what they understand to be Divinely revealed truth?"
If your posts were not so antagonistic, this would be a more interesting thread.
JonC
I hope you can work through the struggles you are having.
Read the other posters here, like Dave Gilbert...he gets it.Reformed gets it.
Follow their lead. Calm yourself down. Have some tea with honey perhaps a coffee cake muffin?
Do not get your blood pressure elevated and lash out.
Perhaps you are misreading the OP.????
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Dave ( or is it David? ),
I'd like to post some answers to your questions above from my own point of view, and separate them into their parts based on the comments and questions:
1)
I agree, Dave.
Nothing should be used as a sole determination when trying to determine whether someone else, for reason's of true fellowship, is a born-again believer or not.
2)
To me, that's a subjective thing, and describing that is mostly from experience.
For example, someone telling me that I am saved is not something I should be trusting in...
But reading God's word, and after much study having things "pop out" or "coalesce" over time, is a good indicator of one's personal salvation.
Other Scriptural elements must be in place, and there are many.
Here are a few...
Do I have a Scriptural and growing dislike for the world and its ways ( 1 John 2:15 )? Check.
Do I have a growing love for others who are believers ( 1 John 3:10 )? Check.
Do I love His word, more and more the "older" I get ( Psalms 119:72, Psalms 119:127 )? Check.
Do my "passions" and other problem "of the flesh" grow less and less intense the more I grow as a believer ( Romans 8:11-14 ).
Do I not only desire the fruits of the Spirit, are they actually starting to show up over time ( Galatians 5:22-23 )? Check / "check-ish".
3)
Watch them over time... the longer the better, from my perspective.
While I believe it to be totally unfair to jump to conclusions without enough evidence and time to develop a truly complete picture ( never dismiss someone as an unbeliever unless and until every Scriptural admonition and every Scriptural observation that can be made, is applied ), we as believers can still arrive at a decision, at some point.
There are going to be things in the life of a "tare" that will give themselves away as they go through trials and tribulations in this life.
They will fall away, in one way, shape or form.
They will refuse truth, refuse correction, and they will walk away, never to return.
In other words, they will eventually demonstrate whether or not they are "hearing His voice" and following Him (John 10:27 ), or content to follow the false teachers all their lives.
4)
I hope I've managed to clear some of that up.
Please let me know if I can be more clear.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
John...
Icon....
Let us provoke one another, to good works.
If that doesn't work, I'll just put myself between you, and look up at the both of you like Mr. Miyagi...so you can't get to each other.
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