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Do christians have to fear the white throne judgement?
- Thread starter xdisciplex
- Start date
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Many of you think, we will not be fear at the judgment day. Well, many of you are wrong.
In Philippians 2:12 says, Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING."
Paul was written to Christians, not lost people.
Before this verse, Paul did discuss on Phil. 2:10-11 that, he said, everyone -from heaven, from earth, and from hell, ALLL people will bown down before Christ, and shall confess that He is the Lord. That would in the Judgment Day.
Yes, everyone both unsaved and saved people will fear of the Lord.
Also, in Matthew 10:28 says, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Matt. 10:28 tells us, we should not be fear of any person who is persecuting against us, they can kill our body, but cannot take our soul. Rather fear the Lord, because He have the power to destroy both body and soul in hell.
Alao, in 2 Cor. 5:10 tells us, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
Paul tells us, we all must stand before the judgment seat of Christ, to judge our works and life, which is good or bad.
Look next verse - 2 Cor. 5:11 says, "Knowing therefore the TERROR of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences."
Paul tells us, we should be aware that there shall be the terror of the Lord at the judgment seat of Christ, we better warning them about it.
Many people will be shocked and trembling stand before the Lord at the judgment day.
Also, I am telling you, MANY, many religions include baptists will be shocked and trembling stand before the Lord at the judgment day.
Will I be fear of the Lord at the judgment day? Abosolutely! Yes! Because I feel that I am not satisfy with my life of my spiritual and my works. I know my spiritual life and works shall be revealed at the judgment day.
Also, MANY religions and baptists are expecting that they will inherit the kingdom at the judgment day, because they did wonderful works. Also, many people who hold osas doctrine, think they are already saved, and do nothing for the Lord, just suffer loss the reward that's it, then go into heaven. BUT, MANY of them will be shocked and will be end up in the lake of fire.
In Matt. 7:22-23 warning us, in the judgment day, many religions will say to Christ that, they did many good works for Him, but, Christ will say to them, "I never know you". Why? Because of their iniquity. Iniquity means wicked and sinful. Lord is not interesting in our good works. He interesting in out fruit life and repentenace -Matt. 7:18.
I am guaranatee that everyone of you will be trembling before the Lord at the judgement day. I am serious, no kidding.
Facing the Lord at the judgment day is not funny, it will be awful terror.
But, if you are faithful and walk in the light for the Lord in your lifetime, then you will have no problem for being prepared to face Lord in teh judgment day. Although, we ALL will be fear and trembling according as what Paul say of Phil. 2:12.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
In Philippians 2:12 says, Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING."
Paul was written to Christians, not lost people.
Before this verse, Paul did discuss on Phil. 2:10-11 that, he said, everyone -from heaven, from earth, and from hell, ALLL people will bown down before Christ, and shall confess that He is the Lord. That would in the Judgment Day.
Yes, everyone both unsaved and saved people will fear of the Lord.
Also, in Matthew 10:28 says, "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Matt. 10:28 tells us, we should not be fear of any person who is persecuting against us, they can kill our body, but cannot take our soul. Rather fear the Lord, because He have the power to destroy both body and soul in hell.
Alao, in 2 Cor. 5:10 tells us, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
Paul tells us, we all must stand before the judgment seat of Christ, to judge our works and life, which is good or bad.
Look next verse - 2 Cor. 5:11 says, "Knowing therefore the TERROR of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences."
Paul tells us, we should be aware that there shall be the terror of the Lord at the judgment seat of Christ, we better warning them about it.
Many people will be shocked and trembling stand before the Lord at the judgment day.
Also, I am telling you, MANY, many religions include baptists will be shocked and trembling stand before the Lord at the judgment day.
Will I be fear of the Lord at the judgment day? Abosolutely! Yes! Because I feel that I am not satisfy with my life of my spiritual and my works. I know my spiritual life and works shall be revealed at the judgment day.
Also, MANY religions and baptists are expecting that they will inherit the kingdom at the judgment day, because they did wonderful works. Also, many people who hold osas doctrine, think they are already saved, and do nothing for the Lord, just suffer loss the reward that's it, then go into heaven. BUT, MANY of them will be shocked and will be end up in the lake of fire.
In Matt. 7:22-23 warning us, in the judgment day, many religions will say to Christ that, they did many good works for Him, but, Christ will say to them, "I never know you". Why? Because of their iniquity. Iniquity means wicked and sinful. Lord is not interesting in our good works. He interesting in out fruit life and repentenace -Matt. 7:18.
I am guaranatee that everyone of you will be trembling before the Lord at the judgement day. I am serious, no kidding.
Facing the Lord at the judgment day is not funny, it will be awful terror.
But, if you are faithful and walk in the light for the Lord in your lifetime, then you will have no problem for being prepared to face Lord in teh judgment day. Although, we ALL will be fear and trembling according as what Paul say of Phil. 2:12.
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
Two or three (or so) Points:Brother Bob said:
First: Brother Bob, I did read your posts (all of them, every word, and had read all other posts in the thread), up until I replied. The fact that I have not previously replied to a thread does and did not mean I had not read it, but often, that I did (or do) not have the time to devote to giving a thorugh and thoughtful answer.
Second: Contrary to your assertion, "The whole discussion" states (as the title of the thread) "Do Christians have to fear the white throne judgement (sic)?", and the statement was made by xdisciplex that "It's poll time." followed by his reference that he had made a mistake in his question and really meant "the Judgment Seat of Christ". I do agree with Linda64 (as she stated in post 9) [and also D28guy (who BTW, posted a good little excerpt in post #28, describing the Judgment Seat of Christ) among others] that "the Judgment Seat of Christ" and "the Great White Throne" are different judgments.
Third, post #37, which was my first response, was not exactly "coming in on the tail end, and responded to a verse or two, without the whole subject.", despite your protestations to this effect. I merely responded to a question in an open debate forum which asked, and again I quote, "Where is this scripture of the saved being judged in the future." (sic) You then asked this in post # 40 (which directly quotes me and is a response to my post #37). [Sigh!] Again I quote! "Show me the scripture saying the righteous will be judged, not be in the judgement of rewards." Once agian, I responded wiith two verses of Scripture saying this exact thing. (Post #45) You are the one that then, after the fact, "added to" your initial question by adding additional conditions. For the fourth time I quote: "I asked to show me a scripture where the righteous will be judged in the end of time after the resurrection. If you can do that then it would add to this discussion, instead of derailing it."
Sorry, I am not the one "derailing" this (or most any other) thread. It is not my responsibility to ascertain in advance what you are really meaning. I don't have the spiritual gift of prophecy or the gift of knowledge to be able to ascertain anyone's motives. Nor do I claim to be able to!
I will say another thing, here. D28guy had posted some very accurate things in this thread, about the subject, IMO. Several others, including you, Brother Bob as well as DeafPostTrib have also posted some good things. Just not all of them happen to fit the questions at hand. That does not by any stretch mean they are wrong, only that they are not answering the subject.
I stand by what I have already posted, and will now try and answer your last addition, in a way. Since I do not preach or teach any so-called "end of time", as you (not the Bible, for that phrase is not ever found in either the KJV or the NKJV) phrase it, I cannot give a Scripture to that effect, for none can exist. But I can give one more that says everyone will face a 'future judgment', of some sort.
There is definitely a yet future judgment to come, as Scripture declares.
The question is what is its nature, and who faces which ones. I'll go with the Scripture that says "We shall all stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ", as a Christian.
I will never stand before the judgment of the sheep and goats" (Matt. 25:31-33) for I am not a part of "the nations" but a part of "the church, the Body of Christ" (Col. 1:18).
I'll not stand in the future resurrectiuon and judgment of Israel (Dan. 12:1-3), for I am a part of the church, not Israel.
And I ain't gonna' stand before the Great White Throne judgment (Rev. 20:11), because, Praise the Lord, I've got my part, and gonna' be found in Christ (Phil'p. 3:9), and be in the first resurrection (Rev. 20:6) and the second death ain't got no power on me!
That ain't braggin'; that's 'Bible'!!
Ed
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FTR, although we will face "judgment", the Bible never speaks of any so-called "the judgment day", although it does mention several distinct judgments, as I just posted in my previous post, for that phrase cannot be found in Scripture!DeafPosttrib said:
Scripture does use the phrase "a" and "the" "day of judgment", but never says that there is only one such event, all rolled together into one. I am confident that the Holy Spirit knew what He was inspiring the writers of Scripture to record (not to mention the Lord Jesus Christ announced more than one judgment, himself), and that had He intended for them all to be the same, He would have inspired the writers to use the same words for the same event. Hence, the "sheep and goats" judgment of the Gentiles (nations) is not the same thing as "the Judgment Seat of Christ", or "the Great White Throne", even though all the above are still yet future.
Ed
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
EdSutton said:
Ed - you are wayyy too kind on this -- giving me an opening like that. Remind me to send you a check in the mail.:type:
God's Word commands us to Endure. Conditional Results IF we Endure/Perservere
Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.
Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it
Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,
Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.
1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.
Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.
Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.
Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.
Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."
2Peter 1:10-11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as
you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
God's Word giving Real Warning - to Endure/Perservere.
2Peter 2:20-22
18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality,
those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it,
to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "" A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,'' and,
""A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.''
Heb 6:4-8
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been
made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify
to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open same.
7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also
tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
I gave no such 'opening'. I asked for the use of the term "preseverance" or "persevere". Which, BTW, you did not give, maybe because no such additional instance occurs, ya' think?BobRyan said:
You responed by "changing the deal" and substituting "endure". One can "endure" without not necessarily "persevering". "Endure" is 'passive'; "presevere" is 'active'.
But when it gets here, I'll still cash the check! :thumbs: :laugh: :laugh:
Ed
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Sorry Ed - I had to run out the door for an appointment before finishing the highlighting in the texts posted.
Here is the highlighting for the sincere objective unbiased reader to "determine" if these texts speak only to "more candy in heaven" vs "less candy in heaven" or if they speak to "persevering firm until the end" to realize fully the "hope of the Gospel".
Here is the highlighting for the sincere objective unbiased reader to "determine" if these texts speak only to "more candy in heaven" vs "less candy in heaven" or if they speak to "persevering firm until the end" to realize fully the "hope of the Gospel".
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
EdSutton said:
I freely admit the synonyms of the form "Persevere" and "endure firm until the end" and "hold fast firm until the end" and "do not fall away but rather hold fast" - in these warning messages to the saints.
I am also more than happy for you to argue that these phrases do not speak to "perseverance" while I argue that they "do speak to the subject of perseverance" and then let the unbiased objective reader decide for themselves which argument is "up hill all the way".
I will take that deal every day of the week! I trust you too are very happy with it -- and so let the unbiased readers decide for themselves!
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Adding to the point of this thread -
Dan 7 "Judgment is passed IN FAVOR of the saints" vs 21-21... 2Cor 5:8-10 "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ" James 2 "So live and act as those who ARE to be judged by the law of Liberty".
These texts say nothing about "getting more candy vs less candy in heaven". they are talking about the very real issue of Gospel judgment "when according to my Gospel GOD WILL judge ALL" Rom 2:10-13
Dan 7 "Judgment is passed IN FAVOR of the saints" vs 21-21... 2Cor 5:8-10 "We must ALL stand before the judgment seat of Christ" James 2 "So live and act as those who ARE to be judged by the law of Liberty".
These texts say nothing about "getting more candy vs less candy in heaven". they are talking about the very real issue of Gospel judgment "when according to my Gospel GOD WILL judge ALL" Rom 2:10-13
Brother Bob
New Member
Thats a whole lot of words and still not answer my question of whether your name will already be enrolled in the Lamb's Book of Life, when He comes again??EdSutton said:
Judgement, I have never said there was not a judgement to come, but it is as Jesus says;
Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
I can make it no better or worse.
Please don't give me a whole page to answer this simple little question, will your name already be enrolled in the Lamb's Book of Life, when Jesus comes back to receive His church?? Think you could do that?
I mean, we don't need a whole page to answer one small question! You are going in the grave a natural body and if you are saved, you are going to get up a spiritual body. That should be a pretty good sign that you made it Ed, don't you think?
I believe Ed, that you are among those who "already" know they are saved and going to Heaven. Seems to me, you already know the answer to the judgement, how about that Ed?? When you get before the Lord, you can say "I already know what you going to say Lord, so just go ahead and say it"................
BBob,
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Yes.Brother Bob said:Thats a whole lot of words and still not answer my question of whether your name will already be enrolled in the Lamb's Book of Life, when He comes again??
Judgement, I have never said there was not a judgement to come, but it is as Jesus says;
Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
I can make it no better or worse.
Please don't give me a whole page to answer this simple little question, will your name already be enrolled in the Lamb's Book of Life, when Jesus comes back to receive His church?? Think you could do that?
I mean, we don't need a whole page to answer one small question! You are going in the grave a natural body and if you are saved, you are going to get up a spiritual body. That should be a pretty good sign that you made it Ed, don't you think?
I believe Ed, that you are among those who "already" know they are saved and going to Heaven. Seems to me, you already know the answer to the judgement, how about that Ed?? When you get before the Lord, you can say "I already know what you going to say Lord, so just go ahead and say it"................
BBob,
Yes.
Yes.
Partly.
That answers all four questions you actually asked.
But I still am not sure why you are the one who first intended to "derail" the thread by bringing up "the Lamb's Book of Life", which is still only tangential, at best, to the thread.
Ed
Since I asked for the specific Biblical use of the word, as opposed to a theological usage, I will still be looking for the check! :smilewinkgrin: :thumbs:BobRyan said:
BTW, I will ask for your interpretation of the highlighted parts of these coupla' verses (just to make sure you get your money's worth for the check
), you see.
Ed
Brother Bob
New Member
Was I the one who derailed it, and why would putting forth that the names are already enrolled in the Lamb's Book of Life, showing you are going to Heaven if your names are there and not going to the GWTJ, so no need to fear it??EdSutton said:
Seem to me that is right on track, straight as a rail. a complete answer for those who are saved, that they already have their names enrolled in the Lamb's Book of Life and will receive the reward of going to heaven in the resurrection, instead of standing at the GWTJ.
Seems to me what the OP asked. Yep, I think that was it............
BBob,
Now, about derailing; what is this Preseverance and hunting for the definition of that word, got to do with the GWTJ??? Maybe you are the one derailing. Send me a check also, even though it has nothing to do with the OP. OK?
BBob,
BTW, if your name is already enrolled and You already know you are going to Heaven, which makes more sense, The judgement is when you receive your reward, or the judgement is when you will be judged, even though the outcome has already been established??
I was not the one who brought up the subject of "perseverance". I merely responded (two times) to the subject.Brother Bob said:Was I the one who derailed it, and why would putting forth that the names are already enrolled in the Lamb's Book of Life, showing you are going to Heaven if your names are there and not going to the GWTJ, so no need to fear it??
Seem to me that is right on track, straight as a rail. a complete answer for those who are saved, that they already have their names enrolled in the Lamb's Book of Life and will receive the reward of going to heaven in the resurrection, instead of standing at the GWTJ.
Seems to me what the OP asked. Yep, I think that was it............
BBob,
Now, about derailing; what is this Preseverance and hunting for the definition of that word, got to do with the GWTJ??? Maybe you are the one derailing. Send me a check also, even though it has nothing to do with the OP. OK?
BBob,
BTW, if your name is already enrolled and You already know you are going to Heaven, which makes more sense, The judgement is when you receive your reward, or the judgement is when you will be judged, even though the outcome has already been established??
And the one passing out checks is not me, but BobRyan. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Ed
Brother Bob
New Member
Hey Ed, try and get all you can and help the ole boy out some will you..............:thumbs:EdSutton said:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
EdSutton said:Since I asked for the specific Biblical use of the word, as opposed to a theological usage, I will still be looking for the check! :smilewinkgrin: :thumbs:
BTW, I will ask for your interpretation of the highlighted parts of these coupla' verses (just to make sure you get your money's worth for the check
Ed
Recall that the check was simply an offer of gratitude - showing how much I appreciated your setting up the ball for a slam dunk -- just as you did.
Again - you have my deepest thanks!
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I pointed out "is this where some want to start ignoring what the Bible says about perseverance" -
To which Ed posted something like --
And I gave this response --
Then Ed came back with a --ignore some perseverance texts please - and also try not to notice that holding fast, enduring and persevering are all synonyms for the same thing --style response.
Ed said
To which I said - that I am very happy to leave you in the role of having to claim that "enduring, holding fast, and persevering are not synonyms for the same teaching" -- while I argue "o - s - a -R" and then we let the objective unbiased reader - "see" for themselves.
In fact - I will take that deal every day of the week!!
in Christ,
Bob
To which Ed posted something like --
And I gave this response --
Then Ed came back with a --ignore some perseverance texts please - and also try not to notice that holding fast, enduring and persevering are all synonyms for the same thing --style response.
Ed said
To which I said - that I am very happy to leave you in the role of having to claim that "enduring, holding fast, and persevering are not synonyms for the same teaching" -- while I argue "o - s - a -R" and then we let the objective unbiased reader - "see" for themselves.
In fact - I will take that deal every day of the week!!
in Christ,
Bob
Brother Bob
New Member
I never did worry about you holding your own Bob Ryan........
BBob,
BBob,
DeafPosttrib
New Member
I am so amazing in this thread for past 9 days since the polls is posted. There are over 8,000 members at Baptist Board, not even one person is admit that we shall be fear at the judgment day. I am the only one person to post on poll, that I believe thre will be fear and awful.
I want to show you few verses to prove you, that we all shall fear of the Lord at the Judgment Day.
While I made post at thread about lose salvation issue. I typed verse of Hebrews 10:25 about sacrifice. Somehow, I looked at Hebrews 10:26.
I want to show you of Hebrews 10:26.
First, I want to show you of Hebrews 10:25, it says, "For IF we(believers) sin wilfully AFTER THAT we received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE sacrifice of sins."
This verse warns us, IF we continue practical sinning life AFTER we accepted Christ at salvation, then, wil be NO LONGER remain forgive our sins afteward. That means, if we continue sinning and stay in dark, not confess our sins to Christ, then Christ would NOT forgive our current and future sins. Our present sins would bring forth to death(which speak of "second death" - lake of fire Rev. 20:14-15).
THEN, look next verse - Hebrews 10:26 says, "But a certain FEARFUL looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour(destroy) the adversaries."
This tells us, we should fear at the Lord, in the Judgment Day(judgment seat of Christ/great white throne), because Christ will judge their sins, and to destroy them which speak of send them to lake of fire.
This is not always speak to unbelievers only, which all will be fear at the Lord, also, it apply to us as believers that, we all shall fear at the Lord.
Also, I want to show you another verse on fear.
In Hebrews 4:1 says, "Let us(believers) therefore FEAR, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."
Word- 'lest' means - do not let be happened to us.
Verse one means that, we should not let this be happen to us as the promise being left from us from being entering into his rest.
'Entering his rest' which speak of salvation.
Let me explain of this. The lesson of Israel in the wilderness with Moses for 40 years. 'Enter into his rest' which speak of the land of Canaan - Isreal across from Jordan River. Being in the wilderness is picture as we are in the spiritual warfare right now. The land of Canaan is a type of heaven. While they were in the wilderness with Moses. Many of them were rebel against God. They were disbelief God. Many of them were sinned against God. At the end of their journey(book of Joshua), the only two persons remain of the first generation - Joshua and Caleb entered the land of Canaan, because of their belief. The rest of thousands of Israel all were died and never make to enter the land of Canaan. Do you know all rest of their soul go? They are now in hell.
Heb. 4:3 tells us, we should fear of the Lord, lest our salvation being left away from us, if we being disbelief and remain in sins.
Please go to Romans 11:19-23. It say:
"Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded(pride), but FEAR: For if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED lest he also spare not thee(you). Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: OTHERWISE THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafffed in for God is able to graff them in again."
Romans 11:19-23 give us the lesson of Jews, what happened to them in the wilderness with Moses. While they were in the wilderness, they were cut off, because of their disbelief, and did not abide in God at the end. They were cut off, show that, they are already in hell. That why, we must be FEAR of the Lord.
Apostle Paul tells us, we must be continue(endure) in Christ with our faith to the end.
Same with John 15:1-6. When we accepted Christ, He put us as 'branches' on Him(tree), as we bring forth our fruit as we must remain in him. Or, if we stopped continue in him, then we(branches) would be removed or broken off and cast in the fire(hell) - John 15:6.
That why, we must fear of the Lord all the times in our lifetime, because, we all must stand before the judgment seat of Christ to judge us.
In Phil. 2:12 says, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but NOW much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with FEAR AND TREMBLING."
Our real final salvation is not at the beginning, but at the end- Matt. 10:22 & Matt. 24:13.
2 Cor. 5:10 tells us, we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ. Also, next verse - 2 Cor. 5:11 tells us, judgment seat of Christ is terror. Our Lord is a terror means awful terrible very holy, will cause every person all shall bow down before the Lord - Romans 14:10-12; and Phil. 2:10-12.
Yes, all of us as Christians will fear of the Lord at the Judgment Day.
Not just suffer loss "reward" at the Judgment Day, but will deny us at Judgment Day, will send us to lake of fire - Matt. 10:33; 2 Tim. 2:12; and Rev. 3:5.
Nowhere in the Bible saying that we will suffer loss of "reward" at the Judgment Day, and still be saved. Also, nowhere in the Bible saying that we shall be excluded from Millennial Kingdom, cast in hell for a temporary time, the return back to Christ again in new earth according as what Joey Faust teaching.
What about 1 Cor. 3:15? - "If any man's work shall be burned, be shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."
Many securists like baptists use this verse to prove us that we cannot lose our salvation, only our works shall be suffer loss in the fire, yet we are saved.
I read another discussion forum, two non-securists made good point on 1 Cor. 3:15, they saying we cannot pick a verse to prove it while it leave out of the whole context, what it is all talking about.
The only way that we shall be understand to understand verse 15, have to read whole chapter earlier before we will understand verse 15 better.
Look at key verse 5 says, "Who then is Paul, and who is Apolos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
Paul was talking about ministers(pastors, leaders).
Next verse 6 - "I have PLANTED, Apollos WATERED, but God gave the increased."
It speaks of Paul and Apollos as ministers(leaders) were feed their flock (1 Cor. 3:2- "fed you with milk"), as God built church expanding.
Look important verse 8 - "Now he(minister) that planeth and he that watereth are one, and every man(ministers) shall receive his own reward according to his own labour."
This verse is talking about leaders and pastors, NOT regular "members" of the Church.
Then, verse 9 says, "For we(leaders & pastors) are labourers together with God: ye(you) are God's husbandry, YE ARE GOD'S BUILDING."
There two important key words - 'we' & 'ye' in this verse. 'We' speaks of leaders as Paul said as identied himself as minister(vs. 5), as Paul himself said, "YE" means, to us as 'regular "members" of the church'
To be continued...
I want to show you few verses to prove you, that we all shall fear of the Lord at the Judgment Day.
While I made post at thread about lose salvation issue. I typed verse of Hebrews 10:25 about sacrifice. Somehow, I looked at Hebrews 10:26.
I want to show you of Hebrews 10:26.
First, I want to show you of Hebrews 10:25, it says, "For IF we(believers) sin wilfully AFTER THAT we received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE sacrifice of sins."
This verse warns us, IF we continue practical sinning life AFTER we accepted Christ at salvation, then, wil be NO LONGER remain forgive our sins afteward. That means, if we continue sinning and stay in dark, not confess our sins to Christ, then Christ would NOT forgive our current and future sins. Our present sins would bring forth to death(which speak of "second death" - lake of fire Rev. 20:14-15).
THEN, look next verse - Hebrews 10:26 says, "But a certain FEARFUL looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour(destroy) the adversaries."
This tells us, we should fear at the Lord, in the Judgment Day(judgment seat of Christ/great white throne), because Christ will judge their sins, and to destroy them which speak of send them to lake of fire.
This is not always speak to unbelievers only, which all will be fear at the Lord, also, it apply to us as believers that, we all shall fear at the Lord.
Also, I want to show you another verse on fear.
In Hebrews 4:1 says, "Let us(believers) therefore FEAR, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it."
Word- 'lest' means - do not let be happened to us.
Verse one means that, we should not let this be happen to us as the promise being left from us from being entering into his rest.
'Entering his rest' which speak of salvation.
Let me explain of this. The lesson of Israel in the wilderness with Moses for 40 years. 'Enter into his rest' which speak of the land of Canaan - Isreal across from Jordan River. Being in the wilderness is picture as we are in the spiritual warfare right now. The land of Canaan is a type of heaven. While they were in the wilderness with Moses. Many of them were rebel against God. They were disbelief God. Many of them were sinned against God. At the end of their journey(book of Joshua), the only two persons remain of the first generation - Joshua and Caleb entered the land of Canaan, because of their belief. The rest of thousands of Israel all were died and never make to enter the land of Canaan. Do you know all rest of their soul go? They are now in hell.
Heb. 4:3 tells us, we should fear of the Lord, lest our salvation being left away from us, if we being disbelief and remain in sins.
Please go to Romans 11:19-23. It say:
"Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded(pride), but FEAR: For if God spared not the natural branches, TAKE HEED lest he also spare not thee(you). Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: OTHERWISE THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafffed in for God is able to graff them in again."
Romans 11:19-23 give us the lesson of Jews, what happened to them in the wilderness with Moses. While they were in the wilderness, they were cut off, because of their disbelief, and did not abide in God at the end. They were cut off, show that, they are already in hell. That why, we must be FEAR of the Lord.
Apostle Paul tells us, we must be continue(endure) in Christ with our faith to the end.
Same with John 15:1-6. When we accepted Christ, He put us as 'branches' on Him(tree), as we bring forth our fruit as we must remain in him. Or, if we stopped continue in him, then we(branches) would be removed or broken off and cast in the fire(hell) - John 15:6.
That why, we must fear of the Lord all the times in our lifetime, because, we all must stand before the judgment seat of Christ to judge us.
In Phil. 2:12 says, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but NOW much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with FEAR AND TREMBLING."
Our real final salvation is not at the beginning, but at the end- Matt. 10:22 & Matt. 24:13.
2 Cor. 5:10 tells us, we all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ. Also, next verse - 2 Cor. 5:11 tells us, judgment seat of Christ is terror. Our Lord is a terror means awful terrible very holy, will cause every person all shall bow down before the Lord - Romans 14:10-12; and Phil. 2:10-12.
Yes, all of us as Christians will fear of the Lord at the Judgment Day.
Not just suffer loss "reward" at the Judgment Day, but will deny us at Judgment Day, will send us to lake of fire - Matt. 10:33; 2 Tim. 2:12; and Rev. 3:5.
Nowhere in the Bible saying that we will suffer loss of "reward" at the Judgment Day, and still be saved. Also, nowhere in the Bible saying that we shall be excluded from Millennial Kingdom, cast in hell for a temporary time, the return back to Christ again in new earth according as what Joey Faust teaching.
What about 1 Cor. 3:15? - "If any man's work shall be burned, be shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."
Many securists like baptists use this verse to prove us that we cannot lose our salvation, only our works shall be suffer loss in the fire, yet we are saved.
I read another discussion forum, two non-securists made good point on 1 Cor. 3:15, they saying we cannot pick a verse to prove it while it leave out of the whole context, what it is all talking about.
The only way that we shall be understand to understand verse 15, have to read whole chapter earlier before we will understand verse 15 better.
Look at key verse 5 says, "Who then is Paul, and who is Apolos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
Paul was talking about ministers(pastors, leaders).
Next verse 6 - "I have PLANTED, Apollos WATERED, but God gave the increased."
It speaks of Paul and Apollos as ministers(leaders) were feed their flock (1 Cor. 3:2- "fed you with milk"), as God built church expanding.
Look important verse 8 - "Now he(minister) that planeth and he that watereth are one, and every man(ministers) shall receive his own reward according to his own labour."
This verse is talking about leaders and pastors, NOT regular "members" of the Church.
Then, verse 9 says, "For we(leaders & pastors) are labourers together with God: ye(you) are God's husbandry, YE ARE GOD'S BUILDING."
There two important key words - 'we' & 'ye' in this verse. 'We' speaks of leaders as Paul said as identied himself as minister(vs. 5), as Paul himself said, "YE" means, to us as 'regular "members" of the church'
To be continued...
DeafPosttrib
New Member
Let's continue...
1 Cor. 3:10 - "According to the grace of God which is given unto ME(Paul), as a wise masterbuilder, I (Paul, NOT Jesus!) have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man(leaders & pastors) take heed how he(leaders & pastors) buildeth thereupon(church -people).
Next verse 11 - "For other foundation can no man lay lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."
Remmeber, in Matthew 16:18-19, Christ told his disciples that He is built his church. Christ is the rock. Church means people, not building.
Jesus Christ is the founder of the Church. Thefore, Christ is our foundation.
Look important verse 12 - "NOW if any man(leaders & pastors) build upon this foundation(his flock-people) gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble."
Many securists have the wrong idea of this verse, they saying of this verse show us there are different kinds of degrees or levels of "rewards" which one they shall receive at the judgment seat of Christ such as "gold" - very highly top reward for great faithful servant; "silver" - pretty good faithful servant; "precious stones" - not bad servants' "wood" - fair servants; "hay" - lousy servants; "stubble" - terrible lazy wicked servants, which rewards, they shall receive at the judgment seat of Christ.
But not what Paul was taling about.
Please read verse verse 12 carefully: "Now if any man(pastors) build upon THIS FOUNDATION- gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble," These are NOT talking about different kinds of "rewards" which they shall receive. It is talking about their KINDS of their duty to built TYPES of church(people).
Then verse 13 says, "Every man's(pastors & leaders ONLY) work shall be made manifest(to be shown): for the day(Judgement Day) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire, and the fire shall try(test) every man's(pastors and leaders ONLY) work of what sort it is."
This verse tells us, leaders & pastors' works of their consquence what they have done with their foundation(their church-people), their consequence shall be test by fire at the judgment seat of Christ, and their works shall be declared.
Then verse 14 says, "If any man's(pastors & leaders) work abide which he hath built thereupon(church-his people), he shall receive a reward."
This is speak of pastors & leaders' works built upon their CHURCH, he shall receive a reward.
Then, finally verse 15 says, "If any man's(pastors & leaders ONLY) work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."
So, I ask you a question, what verse 15 is talking about??
Who of "man's" - verse apply to? You? No. It apply to pastors and leaders only. How I know? This verse 15 back context to verse 5 speaks of "ministers". So, that is how you can understand verse 15 better by read throughout this passage in context.
Ok, verse 15 tells us, if any man's WORK shall be burned, it is not speak of his physical-body shall be burned literally. it speaks of his WORKS shall be burned, it shows that his works shall be failed. That means, his church's foundation was not successful in his ministry life. So, that means, his works shall be suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved.
It means that, his works are worthless and failed, but, his soul is saved.
I believe many pastors and leaders are actual trying work so hard to built their church in their ministry life, many of their ministry were collapsed, but, that do not mean that, they neglect God's Will, they did obey God;s Will. But the fire(at the judgment seat of Christ) shall reveal their consequences of their works(ministry) what will be- passed or failed.
I am not going to given you the well-known name of baptist church, and pastors' names. I heard the sad true story of that church. That church was probably America's fastest growing Church during 1970's. One day, a pastor resigned his ministry, became full-time evangelist. Another pastor replaced him. Few years later, he commited adultery with women, that church was into great split. After that, church's finance was nearly collapsed. So, that church decided to sold to other people. They moved to different location. They did builted some new buildings there. But, not for long time. Church's finance was very tight and was about to collapse. So, they decided to closed its door, they scattered away to different churches. Sad. So, that name of church is no longer exist today.
Are two pastors saved? I ditto. But, I am sure that the first pastor was truly saved, because of his faithful and truly love the Lord so much. I did met him few times.
My point is, 1 Cor, 3:1-15 focus on pastors and leaders of their works, their "foundation"of verse 12 which speak of CHURCH - people.
1 Cor, 3:15 have do nothing with the 'proof' of security salvation doctrine and regular "members"-church. It deals focus on pastors and leaders only.
Nowhere throughout in the Bible saying that a Christian shall loss "reward", still can enter eternal life with Christ.
In the next post, I will discuss on Matthew 25:14-30 on three servants.
To be continued...
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
1 Cor. 3:10 - "According to the grace of God which is given unto ME(Paul), as a wise masterbuilder, I (Paul, NOT Jesus!) have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man(leaders & pastors) take heed how he(leaders & pastors) buildeth thereupon(church -people).
Next verse 11 - "For other foundation can no man lay lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."
Remmeber, in Matthew 16:18-19, Christ told his disciples that He is built his church. Christ is the rock. Church means people, not building.
Jesus Christ is the founder of the Church. Thefore, Christ is our foundation.
Look important verse 12 - "NOW if any man(leaders & pastors) build upon this foundation(his flock-people) gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble."
Many securists have the wrong idea of this verse, they saying of this verse show us there are different kinds of degrees or levels of "rewards" which one they shall receive at the judgment seat of Christ such as "gold" - very highly top reward for great faithful servant; "silver" - pretty good faithful servant; "precious stones" - not bad servants' "wood" - fair servants; "hay" - lousy servants; "stubble" - terrible lazy wicked servants, which rewards, they shall receive at the judgment seat of Christ.
But not what Paul was taling about.
Please read verse verse 12 carefully: "Now if any man(pastors) build upon THIS FOUNDATION- gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble," These are NOT talking about different kinds of "rewards" which they shall receive. It is talking about their KINDS of their duty to built TYPES of church(people).
Then verse 13 says, "Every man's(pastors & leaders ONLY) work shall be made manifest(to be shown): for the day(Judgement Day) shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire, and the fire shall try(test) every man's(pastors and leaders ONLY) work of what sort it is."
This verse tells us, leaders & pastors' works of their consquence what they have done with their foundation(their church-people), their consequence shall be test by fire at the judgment seat of Christ, and their works shall be declared.
Then verse 14 says, "If any man's(pastors & leaders) work abide which he hath built thereupon(church-his people), he shall receive a reward."
This is speak of pastors & leaders' works built upon their CHURCH, he shall receive a reward.
Then, finally verse 15 says, "If any man's(pastors & leaders ONLY) work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire."
So, I ask you a question, what verse 15 is talking about??
Who of "man's" - verse apply to? You? No. It apply to pastors and leaders only. How I know? This verse 15 back context to verse 5 speaks of "ministers". So, that is how you can understand verse 15 better by read throughout this passage in context.
Ok, verse 15 tells us, if any man's WORK shall be burned, it is not speak of his physical-body shall be burned literally. it speaks of his WORKS shall be burned, it shows that his works shall be failed. That means, his church's foundation was not successful in his ministry life. So, that means, his works shall be suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved.
It means that, his works are worthless and failed, but, his soul is saved.
I believe many pastors and leaders are actual trying work so hard to built their church in their ministry life, many of their ministry were collapsed, but, that do not mean that, they neglect God's Will, they did obey God;s Will. But the fire(at the judgment seat of Christ) shall reveal their consequences of their works(ministry) what will be- passed or failed.
I am not going to given you the well-known name of baptist church, and pastors' names. I heard the sad true story of that church. That church was probably America's fastest growing Church during 1970's. One day, a pastor resigned his ministry, became full-time evangelist. Another pastor replaced him. Few years later, he commited adultery with women, that church was into great split. After that, church's finance was nearly collapsed. So, that church decided to sold to other people. They moved to different location. They did builted some new buildings there. But, not for long time. Church's finance was very tight and was about to collapse. So, they decided to closed its door, they scattered away to different churches. Sad. So, that name of church is no longer exist today.
Are two pastors saved? I ditto. But, I am sure that the first pastor was truly saved, because of his faithful and truly love the Lord so much. I did met him few times.
My point is, 1 Cor, 3:1-15 focus on pastors and leaders of their works, their "foundation"of verse 12 which speak of CHURCH - people.
1 Cor, 3:15 have do nothing with the 'proof' of security salvation doctrine and regular "members"-church. It deals focus on pastors and leaders only.
Nowhere throughout in the Bible saying that a Christian shall loss "reward", still can enter eternal life with Christ.
In the next post, I will discuss on Matthew 25:14-30 on three servants.
To be continued...
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!