Do most Baptists hold to the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine?

[hrhema]

This was not my personal belief. Those who have questioned a persons original confession to me they are playing God because who can know a mans heart.

Those who believe in OSAS cannot explain the Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. What I heard on this thread was dealing with Jesus not the Holy Spirit. Nor can they seem to give a logical explanation for the scriptures that talk about a falling away and about Apostasy.

People say well if salvation can be handed back then it isn't worth anything and my reply is who are we as mere humans to question salvation no matter what God chooses to do.

OSAS to me is too close to predestination. I cannot except the doctrine that people are predestined to be saved or lost. That would take away the fact that man has been given a free will.
I know what scriptures people try to use but these scriptures are talking about the fact that salvation through the blood of Jesus was predestined to happen. From the foundation of the world this plan was conceived. From the foundation of the world was a book of life created.

I have read how scriptures have been twisted to fit this doctrine such as Jesus prayer to his father about his apostles and people have taken this and made it about future believers. They quote that Jesus said no man can remove a person but Jesus did not state the individual could not walk away. It sounds like peoples wills are overrided by God and God is going to force people into Heaven.

When you bring up Demas then you hear that he never was a real believer but I cannot agree with that. As great an apostle as Paul was who also performed miracles etc would be so blinded that he would not have known Demas had not made a real committment. Demas, and Rufus and Alexander, and others mentioned in the New TEstament who walked away are too inconvenient for those who believe in OSAS. All those whom Peter called Wandering Stars and Brute Beasts are too inconvenient.
So are those whom Jude refered to but again these people were never really believers because that is the only explanation those who believe in OSAS .

I know God's grace is sufficient. I also know we cannot sin more than God's grace. Yet we can make the choice not to repent and to continue to live in sin. We can rebel and totally turn away from God and never make an effort to serve him again. Even Peters words when he states it would be better for those who have believed this truth but turned away from God to have never known this truth is ignored because it hinders this doctrine.

There has been comparisons of salvation unto gifts. Then we hear about the sonship of a believer by stating a sonship cannot be revoked and that is true but why will not anyone admit that a Father can punish a son even unto death?
It has happened over and over again. Why did Jewish fathers kill their sons? They were disobedient and rebellious.

The scriptures state that God is not willing for anyone to perish so I believe the Holy Spirit deals with heavy conviction those who have gone astray. Yet if an individual ignores the conviction over and over and over again there is a limit to his mercy. Not his grace but his mercy.

Another thing I don't think those who believe OSAS refuse to deal with is that God never changes. How could God be just to have judged King Saul for his disobedience. He was called God's anointed. Then you have Nadab and Abihu who were priests unto the Lord. What were their sin. Disobedience.

What about Solomon. KIng of Israel. He turned to idolatry. Are we going to say he went to Heaven anyway? How could God justify judging people in the Old Testament like the above people and allowing people in the church to just go on through life living in rebellion and sin and take them to Heaven. He would have to apologize.

 

[LadyEagle]

hrhema, Amen, preach it, Brother. Selah.

 

[tyndale1946]

Why? Brethren who are OSAS cannot believe any other way. What you are saying is that the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is dependent upon the sinners acceptance or rejection of what he did for them? He came for us because we couldn't go to him. Until you understand grace(unmerited favor bestowed upon an unworthy subject)how can you understand the peace that passeth all understanding. The brethren that hold to the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine rest in that glorious truth that nothing can separate us from the love of God! We are free to serve God not to obtain Eternal Salvation but to thank him for the gift of his Son Jesus Christ who is our only righteousness. Search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life... and they are they which testify of me!... The brethren of the OSAS bid all... Come and see! The true beauties of your Salvation... Brother Glen

 

[tyndale1946]

Hrhema said:

Another thing I don't think those who believe OSAS refuse to deal with is that God never changes.

Thats what the OSAS doctrine is based on... I am God I change not, therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. God punishes his children here in time not in eternity! Jesus Christ did that for us and by his stripes we are healed!... Where do you get this doctrine?... King Solomon in hell?... Well you meet all kinds on the baptist board!... Brother Glen

 

[Pete Richert]

What about Solomon. KIng of Israel. He turned to idolatry. Are we going to say he went to Heaven anyway?

Yes.

I wasn't saved because I didn't sin. If that were that case I never would have been saved.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by EagleLives911:


Also noticed no affiliation with a local church in yours and Scott J's profiles. That explains everything.

I am not sure what explaination of "everything" you think you have gleaned from that detail in my profile. However, just to set the record straight, my family and I just relocated from Georgia to rural Missouri. We were members of East Hiram Baptist there and very faithful attendees of all services even though we drove 30 minutes to get there and have 3 young children.

Since getting to Missouri, I have been diligently seeking a fundamentally sound church with a heart for doing God's work (especially community evangelism). To my extreme disappointment, the churches here are not doctrinally sound on the whole and are very much at peace with the "world."

I have contacted two different organizations about planting a church here. I would welcome input from the folks on the BB if you know of a fundamental Baptist church that is into church planting.

EagleLives, you seem to presume a great deal based on your experiences and feelings. You have wrongly assumed that those of who hold to the doctrines of grace are antinomian. You suggest that we far less concerned about the souls of others than those who disagree, such as yourself. Such a predisposition to make assumptions based on appearances rather than the underlying truths is what our debate has been about for some time.

I notice you changed your mind about posting to this topic. Why the change of heart?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by hrhema:


OSAS to me is too close to predestination. I cannot except the doctrine that people are predestined to be saved or lost. That would take away the fact that man has been given a free will.
I know what scriptures people try to use but these scriptures are talking about the fact that salvation through the blood of Jesus was predestined to happen.

This post is in direct contradiction to the text and context of Romans 8:26-30. Also, the doctrine of election does not say that God predestines that some will be lost. It says that we ALL would be lost except for the mercy of God in saving the elect.

 

[hrhema]

Where did I get this doctrine? Same place you claim you get your doctrine. I am finding out that a lot of OSAS believe in predestination and that everyone who had a name under the Old TEstament went to Heaven no matter what kind of life they lived. I wonder if you believe that Judas Iscariot is in Heaven? Since people who believe in OSAS state there is no sin so great that Grace cannot cover it. I guess we will go to Heaven and sit down with the guy who betrayed the Lord Jesus. Even though he was called the Son of Perdition by Jesus and Jesus claimed he lost him in the prayer in John 17, since there is no sin that grace cannot cover.

It is just like those who believe that Ananias and Sapphira who lied to the Holy Ghost and was judged by God and died will be in Heaven even though they did not repent of the sin of lying and the Bible says liars cannot enter Heaven.

The Bible makes it very clear it is up to the individual to accept or reject God's grace. God does not force salvation on anyone. He is a gentleman. He gave man a free will to serve him or not.

Paul wrote in Hebrews: "So we must listen very carefully to the truth we have heard, or we may DRIFT AWAY from it. The message God delivered through angels has ALWAYS PROVED TRUE, and the people were PUNISHED for every violation of the law and every act of disobedience. WHAT MAKES US
THINK THAT WE CAN ESCAPE if we are indifferent to this great salvation that was announced by the Lord Jesus himself?" Hebrews 2:1-4.

"LET US DUR BEST TO ENTER THAT PLACE OF REST, FOR ANYONE WHO DISOBEYS GOD, AS THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL DID WILL FALL." hEBREWS 4:11

I also believe what Paul wrote in the 6th Chapter of Hebrews proves my point that a person who turns from truth and totally rejects Christ after believing that person cannot be restored. This is not talking about a person who grows cold and
backslides but never totally and completely rejects Christ. These individuals who may even go down into the dregs of sin come back to Christ because of the convicting power of the Holy Spirit.

In the same book Paul wrote: "Dear friends, if we DELIBERATELY CONTINUE SINNING AFTER WE HAVE RECEIVED A FULL KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE IS NTHER SACRIFICE THAT WILL COVER THESE SINS. There will be nothing to look forward to but the terrible expectation of God's judgement and the raging fire that will consume his enemies. Anyone who refused to obey the law of MOses was put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Think HOW MUCH MORE TERRIBLE THE PUNISHMENT WILL BE FOR THOSE WHO HAVE TRAMPLED ON THE SON OF GOD AND HAVE TREATED THE BLOOD OF THE CONVENANT AS IF IT WERE COMMON AND UNHOLY. SUCH PEOPLE HAVE INSULTED AND ENRAGED THE HOLY SPIRIT WHO BRINGS GOD'S MERCY TO HIS PEOPLE.
FOR WE KNOW THE ONE WHO SAID, I WILL TAKE VENGEANCE, I WILL REPAY THOSE WHO DESERVE IT. HE ALSO SAID THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS OWN PEOPLE, IT IS A TERRIBLE THING TO FALL INTO THE HANDS OF THE LIVING GOD.

Paul was writing this to the believers in Israel to the Jews not to non believers so this shows that even Paul believe a believer could go too far.

In 1 Thessalonians when Paul warned a believer against committing Adultery with another believers wife he said God will avenge this kind of sin. In Colossians Paul wrote to believers that if they did what was wrong they would be paid back for it because there is no favorites with God. He warned the Colossians that Gods terrible anger will come upon those who persistently sin.

To the Philippians he wrote that with many tears he had wept for believers who were really enemy of the cross because of the way they lived.

Paul writing to the Ephesians said that no immomral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God and he was commanding believers not to commit these sin and told them they would not inherit the kingdom if they did. If even said don't be fooled by those who EXCUSE THESE SINS, FOR THE TERRIBLE ANGER OF GOD COMES UPON THOSE WHO DO THESE THINGS.

Yet, over and over many who believe in OSAS excuses their sins by saying they are weak etc.

Paul to the Galatians wrote: Dont be misled. Remember you can't ignore God and get away with it. You will always reap what you sow. Those who live only to satisfy their own sinful desires will harvest the consequences of decay and death.

It is strange to me that people read these scriptures and act like the writers were writing to sinners but they were not. They were writing to believers. They were warning believers of the consequences of living in sin, of rejecting Jesus, etc. To these believers Paul wrote many times that ANYONE LIVING THAT SORT OF LIFE WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. This he wrote to believers.

The blood of Jesus is the only atonement. His sacrifice was once and for all and yes it covers present and future sins when we do as John said we should do and that is to repent of them. To ask him to forgive us and he is just and righteous to do so. Yes, believers sin and fail but we were commanded to repentance.

I have given many scriptures that prove that a person can decide to reject Christ. I have given many scriptures showing that God will judge believers who continue to live in sin. Paul was clear on this.

 

[LadyEagle]

ScottJ: So, you finally answered my slam dunk post.

If I offended you, I apologize.

Well, here is a way to resolve the issue:

All who believe in OSAS doctrine (no matter what, turning atheist, turning homosexual, etc., never to repent) can take a big red felt marker and mark through the following Scriptures in their Bibles, because these do not comply with the OSAS doctrine. End of debate.

Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13) "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.

Galatians 5:4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

John 15:5-6 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Hebrews 6:4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."

Hebrews 10:38-39 "But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."

Acts 20:17,28-30 "And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church." ... "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."

1 Timothy 1:18-21 "fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are HYMENAEUS and Alexander"

2 Timothy 2:16-18 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are HYMENAEUS and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some.

1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"

1 Timothy 6:20-21 "O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"-which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith."

2 Peter 2:1 "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."

2 Peter 3:17 "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness"

2 John 8-9 "Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward. Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."

2 Peter 2:20-22 "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

James 5:19-20 "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins."

Revelation 2:4-5 "'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-unless you repent."

Revelation 3:5 "'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.

Revelation 3:16-17 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked"

Ezekiel 18:24-26 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live?[B} All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.[/B] "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die."

In what way do you reconcile the Calvinism doctrine of OSAS with the above Scriptures?

 

[Scott_Bushey]

It seems that the position of a few on this thread is to intentionally disregard that which has been stated by those of the Calvinist persuasion. I will (laboriously) again repeat that which we have stated numerous times and hold firmly to in regards to OSAS doctrine.

1) The Calvinist does not believe (in any shape or form) that a man or woman who lives like hell, i.e homosexual, adulterer, thief, etc., and remains there in this mentioned state, i.e "practicing" the sin, will *ever* go to Heavens rest.
2) We do however hold firmly to the biblical idea that God elects. That He has, prior to the foundation of the world, "chosen" men and woman from every tribe, tongue and nation, to spend eternity with Himself.
3) Men and woman of God who repent from the above mentioned sins and worship Christ as Lord of their lives, that is, being as faithfully obedient to Gods law as His grace allows, will indeed gather with the beloved on that day.
4) Gods elect *WILL* persevere, will repent, will hold fast their confession of faith, will return if backslidden per the promise of God that it is He who has begun a good work and it is He who will take it into completion until the day of Christ Jesus!

I hope this is the last time I have to explain this.........

In HIM,
According to His word (Sola Scriptura),
Scott

[ May 04, 2002, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

[MissAbbyIFBaptist]

HI. I AM NEW TO THIS MESAGE BOARD, AND RED YOUR QUESTION ON "ONCE SAVD,ALWAYS SAVED." THIS IS MY OPINION:
I BELIEVE WITH ALL MY HEART THAT ONCE YOU GET SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS SAVED. I KNOW SOME PEOPLE MAY MAKE A FALSE PROFESSION OF FAITH,AND IF THAT IS THE CASE, THEN THEY NEED TO BE SAVED! I MADE A FALSE PROFESSION OF FAITH YEARS AGO. BUT 3 YEARS AGO, GOD WONDEROUSLY SAVED ME FROM SIN!{PRAISE THE LORD!}
I KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN WHEN YOU SPEAK OF PEOPLE WHO GET SAVED AND THEN GO BACK OUT INTO "THE WORLD" I KNOW THAT IN SOME CASES, THOSE PEOPLE MAY NOT HAVE REALY BEEN BORN AGAIN, BUT,I KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE THAT SAVED PEOPLE CAN MAKE THE SAME MISTAKES THAT AN UNSAVED PERSON. JUST BECAUSE A PERSON BECOMES BACKSLIDDEN, THAT DOSENT MEAN THEY LOSE THIER SALVATION.
I, FOR ONE, AM VERY THANKFUL THAT GOD FORGIVES US WHEN WE MAKE MISTAKES
THANK YOU FOR TAKING TIME TO READ MY REPLY,
YOUR SISTER IN CHRIST,
SAVED BY GRACE 1999

 

[pinoybaptist]

Romans 8:1 -
There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit....

Romans 8:33-
Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect ? It is God that justifieth.

Romans 9:6-
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect, for they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.

Bottom line: Some preach once saved, always saved
out of head knowledge. But God knows who His people are, He knows them by name, by date of birth, by date of death. He knows what sins they have done, what sins they are committing, and what sins they will commit.
And He has everything covered for them, in Christ and thru Christ.

They are not all Israel (God's princes) who are of Israel (the professing believers)...

The true child of God is saved once, forever, and will remain saved, forever, not on account of his conduct after conversion, but on account of God's unchanging, unending mercy.

Romans 9:16-
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.

 

[Scott_Bushey]

hrhema writes:
Since people who believe in OSAS state there is no sin so great that Grace cannot cover it.

Scott asks:
Is there a sin so great?

hrhema writes:
I guess we will go to Heaven and sit down with the guy who betrayed the Lord Jesus. Even though he was called the Son of Perdition by Jesus and Jesus claimed he lost him in the prayer in John 17, since there is no sin that grace cannot cover.

Scott responds:
Please view the scripture you quote. You have many times tried to refute the elective decree of God by implying "men have choice", yet you do not understand this simple idea. In your estimation, (as stated above) you have implied (forgive me if I am viewing your position erroneously)that the King of all creation, has(unfortunately/regretfully) lost Judas. as if to imply, Christ is frustrated by the event. The end of John 17:12 states, "so the scripture might be fulfilled". Hrhema, what scripture? And what is being implied here? Predestination? Reprobation?

Psa 41:9 Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

Hrhema writes:
It is just like those who believe that Ananias and Sapphira who lied to the Holy Ghost and was judged by God and died will be in Heaven even though they did not repent of the sin of lying and the Bible says liars cannot enter Heaven.

Scott again states:
First of all, what you pose here is that if you (Hrhema) get mad at someone who cuts you off in traffic and a car crashes into you in the event, and you die instantly before you are able to conciously repent, you will go to Hell. This is ridiculous and unbiblical. What does this say for the event that happened at Calvary's cross? It says that the sins of Christs' people were only propitiated for that moment alone. What you pose is that Christ in no better than the sacrifices that were offered in the temple. The temple sacrifices needed to be offered continuously, for the very reason you are stating. Hebrews refutes this ridiculous notion. *See below

*Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Scott responds to the issue of whether Ananias and Saphira were *true believers*.
I have exegeted this passage previously to you. I ask you, would a believer lie to the Holy Spirit?
What does Timothy state about Money?

1 Tim 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil:

What about Christ. What did he say about the issue?

Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth,

Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Scott adds:
Ananias and His wife both served the obvious master. It is where their heart was. Peter calls Annanias "a certain Man". He doesn't call him a brother, or a believer....he calls him, "a certain man".

Acts 5:1 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

Scott states:
I do not believe, based upon the harmony of scripture, that these were true believers. So, in essence, I agree with you (unfortunately, not on the same undertanding though), they are not in Heaven.

Hrhema writes:
The Bible makes it very clear it is up to the individual to accept or reject God's grace. God does not force salvation on anyone. He is a gentleman. He gave man a free will to serve him or not.

Scott asks again:
What about the Apostle Pauls conversion. It is an excellent example. Did he have a choice?

Hrhema writes:
"LET US DUR BEST TO ENTER THAT PLACE OF REST, FOR ANYONE WHO DISOBEYS GOD, AS THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL DID WILL FALL." hEBREWS 4:11

Scott asks:
What do youthink this means?

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

Hrhema writes:
I also believe what Paul wrote in the 6th Chapter of Hebrews proves my point that a person who turns from truth and totally rejects Christ after believing that person cannot be restored.

Scott responds:
Look what Hebrews chapter 6 states.........

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permits.
Scott asks:
What do you think this (above) statement means?

Hrhema writes:
In the same book Paul wrote: "Dear friends, if we DELIBERATELY CONTINUE SINNING AFTER WE HAVE RECEIVED A FULL KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, THERE IS NTHER SACRIFICE THAT WILL COVER THESE SINS.

Scott states emphatically:
I agree! Christ only died for the sin of His people. If a man continues to sin flagrantly, this sacrifice, the sacrifice of Christ, was not imputed (obviously) to this fool!

Hrhema adds:
Paul was writing this to the believers in Israel to the Jews not to non believers so this shows that even Paul believe a believer could go too far.

Scott asks:
Are you saying that the epistle to the Hebrews was written by Paul? Who told you that?

Hrhema continues........
In 1 Thessalonians when Paul warned a believer against committing Adultery with another believers wife he said God will avenge this kind of sin. In Colossians Paul wrote to believers that if they did what was wrong they would be paid back for it because there is no favorites with God. He warned the Colossians that Gods terrible anger will come upon those who persistently sin.

Scott asks:
Have you read this passage?

Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Scott states:
In conclusion........
I must exhort you my friend, without being ad hominem, your hermeneutics are off center. In love I tell you this.

In HIS grace,
Scott

[ May 04, 2002, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by EagleLives911:
ScottJ: So, you finally answered my slam dunk post.

If I offended you, I apologize.

Thank you. Apology accepted.

Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13) "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.

They have "no firm root". The presence of the Holy Spirit in someone is definitely a "firm root." Unless one believes in something akin to the second filling of the Holy Spirit, this falls well short of a proof text for your position.

Galatians 5:4 "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."

Speaks to the judaizers. This text when read in the context in which it was written has precisely the opposite effect of that you wish to promote. Effectively Paul is saying that by attempting to add works or obedience to grace, a person chooses the Law which the person can never satisfy.

John 15:5-6 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

No objection. Anyone who does not abide in Christ will be cast into hell. Nowhere in this verse does it imply that it is speaking to those who once were in Him.

Hebrews 6:4-6

Already addressed.

Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."

Again, no objection. Those who hear, understand, and reject the gospel cannot be saved. Also, believers who sin without repentance will be chastised. In either case, this passage does no harm to the Doctrines of Grace.

Hebrews 10:38-39 "But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul."

God has no pleasure in Christians that regress. But again, this passage does not say that the righteous one becomes unsaved. It says that God is not pleased with him.

Acts 20:17,28-30 "And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called to him the elders of the church." ... "I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them."

Wolves are not sheep and never were...well, maybe BWSmith believes they once were but that is another topic.

1 Timothy 1:18-21 "fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are HYMENAEUS and Alexander"

Because of your preconceived bias, you assume that "shipwreck" = loss of salvation. In both occurrences, "faith" most likely refers to the doctrine of faith not saving faith... so says Gill's commentary and the Geneva Bible notes.

2 Timothy 2:16-18 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are HYMENAEUS and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some.

Nothing in these verses indicates that salvation can be lost. People like Benny Hinn, Peter Ruckman, GA Riplinger, etc. can rightly be accused of upsetting "the faith of some" by their actions and abuse of scripture.

1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons"

You have lifted this verse out of its context. It clearly deals with false doctrines and apostacy not the loss of individual salvation.

1 Timothy 6:20-21 "O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called "knowledge"-which some have professed and thus gone astray from the faith."

Same answer. "Faith" refers to doctrine. Paul is giving a warning to adhere to sound doctrine as "opposing arguments" so clearly demonstrates.

2 Peter 2:1 "But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves."

Deals with false doctrine and its promoters, not the elect.

2 Peter 3:17 "You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness"

One can be saved and not thoroughly sound in their doctrines. A warning to be on guard so that we are not taken in by false doctrines.

2 John 8-9 "Watch yourselves, that you might not lose what we have accomplished, but that you may receive a full reward.

Speaks to adhering to sound doctrine and practice.

Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God;

...right, never saved.

the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son."

Perseverance of the elect.

2 Peter 2:20-22 "For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A dog returns to its own vomit," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

The key is in the illustrations. Did the dog become a "new creature" then become a dog again? Or, was he always a dog? Did the sow become a sheep because it was clean? Or was it simply a "reformed" pig that followed its true nature right back into the sty?

James 5:19-20 "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins."

The context of the passage is once again confronting doctrinal error. These verses are an exhortation to help other Christians by lovingly showing them their errors. This describes the method by which God uses Christians to correct other believers. If you read into the text that the one in error is in danger of losing genuine salvation then you must deal with a major problem- who does the saving? Christ? Or "he who turns a sinner"?

The context requires much more proof before concluding that one believer can save another from losing their salvation. Again I ask, Who is sovereign over salvation? God or man?

Revelation 2:4-5 "'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 'Remember therefore from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you, and will remove your lampstand out of its place-unless you repent."

Context..."To the angel of the church Ephesus write..." This is written to a church that had lost its zeal for God, not to an individual in danger of losing his salvation.

Revelation 3:5 "'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.

This passage guarantees that "He who overcomes", namely the elect, will be confessed by Christ.

Revelation 3:16-17 'So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 'Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked"

Precisely what you are reading into this text to say that it proves that salvation can be lost, I don't know. But the text itself does not say it. Additionally, you have once again lifted the scripture out of its context- "To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:" You cannot simply decide to apply a warning written to a church to all individuals.

Ezekiel 18:24-26 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live?[B} All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die. "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right? "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die."

[/b]14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

In what way do you reconcile the Calvinism doctrine of OSAS with the above Scriptures?

By reading the scripture within its context and interpreting scripture by scripture rather than by experience and preconceived notions.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by hrhema:
This was not my personal belief. Those who have questioned a persons original confession to me they are playing God because who can know a mans heart.

False. The Bible teaches that the elect will persevere to the end. When a person claims to be saved then reverts to sinfulness without repentance, the Calvinist doesn't presume to know their heart. We simply judge their actions by scripture. It is those who believe that the person in question was genuinely saved and then lost it that suppose they know that the original confession was real.

 

[LadyEagle]

Scott B: 1) The Calvinist does not believe (in any shape or form) that a man or woman who lives like hell, i.e homosexual, adulterer, thief, etc., and remains there in this mentioned state, i.e "practicing" the sin, will *ever* go to Heavens.

So, you don't believe in OSAS? What are we arguing about then for 9 pages?

The person made a profession of faith in Jesus Christ and served the Lord for 20 years, but now has blasphemed the Holy Spirit, and is a practicing homosexual and atheist....

Didn't you and Scott and Gary say this person is still saved no matter what even if they don't repent before they die? Did I misunderstood what you were saying? Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying now?

Or are you saying this person was never really saved? If so, how can we know what is in another person's heart?

Also, are you saying that a person is predestined to be one of the elect and that free will has nothing to do with it?

 

[tyndale1946]

Eaglelives911 said:

Also, are you saying that a person is predestined to be one of the elect and that free will has nothing to do with it?

By jove brethren after ten pages I believe he got it!... Brother Glen

 

[Scott_Bushey]

In a previous post, Scott Bushey wrote:
1) The Calvinist does not believe (in any shape or form) that a man or woman who lives like hell, i.e homosexual, adulterer, thief, etc., and remains there in this mentioned state, i.e "practicing" the sin, will *ever* go to Heavens.

Eaglelives911 asks:
So, you don't believe in OSAS? What are we arguing about then for 9 pages?

Scott replies:
A true believer would not *practice* these things.

EL911 states:
The person made a profession of faith in Jesus Christ and served the Lord for 20 years, but now has blasphemed the Holy Spirit, and is a practicing homosexual and atheist....

Scott asks:
You state that this person is *practicing* these things. Are you saying that this person *never* returns to the faith or he eventually repents? This is the defining element. If he returns and repents, he was one of the elect, if he never does, he was never saved.

EL911 asks:
Didn't you and Scott and Gary say this person is still saved no matter what even if they don't repent before they die?

Scott states again (whew):
No! Did you read my short treatise on OSAS 5 posts back. Please re-read it.

EL911 asks:
Or are you saying this person was never really saved? If so, how can we know what is in another person's heart?

Scott reiterates:
We can't, you are correct, But Jesus said it best, "you will know a tree by it's fruit."

EL911 asks:
Also, are you saying that a person is predestined to be one of the elect and that free will has nothing to do with it?

Scott states:
I am! As I have asked hrhema, Did the Apostle Paul have any choice?

In HIM,
Scott

[ May 04, 2002, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]

 

[Brutus]

This has been an interesting discussion from the start and the OSAS position has defened their beliefs well,their opponents however,have continually taken Scripture out of context to try to prove their position and have failed.One thing about those who believe that one can loose their salvation is (what I've found by talking to them)that they don't as a general rule believe that they can loose their salvation.Why do you suppose that is?

 

[Chris Temple]

10 pages is too long for any discussion, and this one was old several pages ago (thank you Scott for your unswerving adherence the the Scriptures).

Make your last comments, and then this thread is history in a few hours from now.