Do non-cals believe in omniscience?

[Skandelon]

So are you asserting that there are things God has 'willed" Himself not to be ableto know?

Are you reading MY posts? When did I even say anything remotely close to this...

You know what, never mind. I'm not going to get on this merry-go-round.

 

[mandym]

Are you reading MY posts? When did I even say anything remotely close to this...

You know what, never mind. I'm not going to get on this merry-go-round.

I would say that since he added a question mark that would indicate that to him that is what you meant but wanted clarification from you. A reasonable request.

 

[Skandelon]

I would say that since he added a question mark that would indicate that to him that is what you meant but wanted clarification from you. A reasonable request.

I might take it that way if he didn't follow me around asking me the exact same questions over and over, all of which seem to be out of left field compared to what I just said....and which he still doesn't seem to get once I do explain it.

I'm sorry if I came across short with him, but one can only take so many questions which seem to be completely unrelated.

Now, you seem like a reasonable fellow, so if something I said was confusing or in need of clarity I'd be happy to expound. Just let me know what I said need clarity and why. Thanks

 

[Luke2427]

Yes. How many times must I validate the definition of omniscience for you Luke? But I will notice it doesn't just say 'future' events because I don't think God's not really looking through the corridors of time as a man with foresight.

It does indeed say 'future'. The official Southern Baptist position on the omniscience of God is that he knows perfectly all things including the future decisions of his free creatures.

Do you agree that God knows perfectly what decisions his free creatures will ACTUALLY make?

This is where we concede that even our understanding of divine knowing is anthropomorphic. Statements of faith, like that of scripture are finite explanations of matters we can't fully grasp and we all admit that at some level in this discussion. I just believe we should admit it earlier than you do.

But you don't have to abandon it to mystery before you acknowledge that God knew before he made the world exactly what would happen. You just do not. I don't know of a single reputable Systematic Theology that would require that of Christians. Do you?

We can most assuredly say that the very FEW terms that seem to imply that God changed his mind or figured and made choices are anthropomorphic.

What we surely do not have to do is doubt for an instant that God knew the world would fall and billions would be damned before he made the world.

There is absolutely no reason to doubt this that I can see.

I understand that. That is fair. I don't deny omniscience. I just admit, as you have, that our understanding of divine knowledge is anthropomorphic, much like our understanding of his choices.

I appreciate that.

But whatever we don't understand, we most assuredly CAN understand that God has always known all things perfectly- past, present and future and not just all things that MIGHT happen, but every single thing that actually WOULD happen.

If that is true- and I think you agree that it is- then I contend that Arminianism is not one ounce more emotionally satisfying than Calvinism in the effort to exonerate God from the origin of evil and the damnation of billions of people.

AWWWW, I just thought of something. Do you remember how you claimed that God doesn't make choices? You are doing the EXACT same thing Openness do with regard to Omniscience. Think about this. You both see these concepts as being DIFFERENT with God . You think divine choices are NOT like the way men make choices so you conclude, "God doesn't really make choices." Likewise, the Openists think divine knowledge is NOT like the way men know things and they conclude, "God don't really know everything." You both contradict the revelation in order to answer a mystery. My view is that God does know everything and he does make choices because that is what the bible says and I don't know how he does it so I don't pretend to know. I appeal to mystery.

But I am saying to you that there is no REASON to think that the all-knowing God actually makes real choices. Not one. There is every reason to think that the few terms in the Bible that seem to imply that he makes choices are CLEARLY anthropomorphic.

I think it is erroneous to think it is more biblical to dismiss the anthropomorphic nature of passages which depict God doing what is against his clearly revealed nature (i. e. make choices, fly, walk, ponder, repent, etc...). I believe this is less biblical. To treat a passage in a way in which God did not intend for it to be treated is not more biblical.

Some people think being more literal is being more biblical. I used to think this years ago. I thought that there would LITERALLY be a dragon rise up out of the sea in the end times!

That was not biblical thinking on my part. And I think, respectfully, that it is not biblical thinking to demand that a few passages are literal that seem to imply that God has to think about something and then make a choice concerning it.

As I've explained before, if I'm forced to speculate I prefer the concept of the knowledge of an 'eternal now' (I AM). Which would mean that now is the day before he created men and so is tomorrow and next year, and 2000 years ago. In this model His knowledge is more comparable to our present knowing, versus what we know of our past. Make sense? It's just as mysterious, indeed, but it makes your brain stretch a bit.

But this actually limits God's knowledge. It indicates that God's knowledge is inferior to ours in that his knowledge lacks the ability to discern between the future and the present.

It is certainly true that God's omnipresence is a mystery but what it is most assuredly not- is in any way INFERIOR to our knowledge.

Scripture clearly affirms that God knows the end from the beginning- that all his works are known to him from ancient times.

And this is why I agreed so strongly with Jon's statement earlier. We create the difficulty and the need to exonerate with our speculations, whereas if we appealed to mystery prior to the speculation there would be no difficulty. There is a place for faith in all this, right?

Absolutely. And it is faith in his word. God is not the author of evil- SOMEHOW. SOMEHOW God knew everything that would ever come to pass before anything ever did come to pass and yet he is not the author of evil.
That's where faith comes in.

Faith does not come in to cause us to think that God cannot tell the difference between the past, present and future- or that God somehow has to figure things out and then make real choices because his knowledge is less than all encompassing.

I think the RIGHT kind of faith allows us to let God be truly God, completely Sovereign, completely and perfectly all-knowing, totally and exhaustively all powerful- and still believe that men are making real decisions and are really responsible for the evil they commit.

That's the right kind of faith, in my opinion.

And of course I agree, but I just request that you (and Calvinists in general) do this one step earlier...you know before you conclude that God must causally determine man's nature so that it cannot do otherwise than what it does...etc.

But in this thread, and the previous one from off which this one spun, I have not made that claim one time.

God DETERMINING everything because of his foreknowledge of everything has not made up one single typed letter of any one of my proposals in these threads.

 

[DaChaser1]

I might take it that way if he didn't follow me around asking me the exact same questions over and over, all of which seem to be out of left field compared to what I just said....and which he still doesn't seem to get once I do explain it.

I'm sorry if I came across short with him, but one can only take so many questions which seem to be completely unrelated.

Now, you seem like a reasonable fellow, so if something I said was confusing or in need of clarity I'd be happy to expound. Just let me know what I said need clarity and why. Thanks

just asking you IF you hold that God sees things as they unfold, or if he knows everything that will be done , right now!

if you asked him, will that person get saved before he/she dies, will Gd say yes, or will he say, not sure yet, have to wait for it to happen to see it?

 

[preacher4truth]

just asking you IF you hold that God sees things as they unfold, or if he knows everything that will be done , right now!

if you asked him, will that person get saved before he/she dies, will Gd say yes, or will he say, not sure yet, have to wait for it to happen to see it?

Or better yet, has God known all things perfectly that would take place, and did He understand this perfectly in eternity past, present, future, or at all times, and before there was time. That's the question.

 

[Luke2427]

just asking you IF you hold that God sees things as they unfold, or if he knows everything that will be done , right now!

if you asked him, will that person get saved before he/she dies, will Gd say yes, or will he say, not sure yet, have to wait for it to happen to see it?

Right.

It may be my own ignorance, but I have not been able to tell if Skandelon is clearly affirming that he believes these things.

 

[Luke2427]

Or better yet, has God known all things perfectly that would take place, and did He understand this perfectly in eternity past, present, future, or at all times, and before there was time. That's the question.

I think this is a good and more thorough way of asking the question than how I have been asking it.

I would like to know if Skandelon can CLEARLY affirm that he believes this.

 

[Amy.G]

Absolutely. And it is faith in his word. God is not the author of evil- SOMEHOW. SOMEHOW God knew everything that would ever come to pass before anything ever did come to pass and yet he is not the author of evil.
That's where faith comes in.

Faith does not come in to cause us to think that God cannot tell the difference between the past, present and future- or that God somehow has to figure things out and then make real choices because his knowledge is less than all encompassing.

I think the RIGHT kind of faith allows us to let God be truly God, completely Sovereign, completely and perfectly all-knowing, totally and exhaustively all powerful- and still believe that men are making real decisions and are really responsible for the evil they commit.

That's the right kind of faith, in my opinion.

Is the world ending? We actually agree.

 

[marke]

I know the answer brethren and sisters. For the vast majority of you, the answer is an emphatic YES!
Most of us, Calvinists and Arminians and other orthodox Christians, believe that God has always known all there is to ever know about everything.

HERE IS THE QUESTION: Can ANY theological system which embraces the omniscience of God really explain this difficulty in any emotionally satisfying way? I contend that neither Calvinism nor Arminianism or any other non-cal system can.

I can't speak for Arminianists and I am not a Calvinist but I can say that I absolutely believe in the omniscience of God. I suspect Calvinists do have a problem understanding the issue of why God made man in such a way to allow sin into the world. If God only saved who He wished to save without any reason or basis for separating the saved from the lost, then there will be problems understanding God.

I believe God created all of mankind with the intention of selecting only a specific few for eternal fellowship with Him. I also believe that God predetermined before making man that He was going to allow man to choose whether to accept Him or reject Him as part of that basis for Him choosing who He would save and who He would not save.

Since God sees and knows everything and time holds no bound on Him, God was easily able to see and know who would receive the truth from Him and who would not, which is how God chose and elected those to be saved before the foundation of the world.

 

[glfredrick]

As I see it, at stake in this particular conversation is whether or not God is perfect and capable enough in the decisions He made ONCE in His will so as to have not made a mistake requiring a change of mind.

Some, obviously, have attributed to God the potential or actuality of making a mistake -- being wrong -- and I cannot forebear to even consider such an eventuality, for that is NOT the God of the Bible, but a god made in one's own image.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

As I see it, at stake in this particular conversation is whether or not God is perfect and capable enough in the decisions He made ONCE in His will so as to have not made a mistake requiring a change of mind.

Some, obviously, have attributed to God the potential or actuality of making a mistake -- being wrong -- and I cannot forebear to even consider such an eventuality, for that is NOT the God of the Bible, but a god made in one's own image.

I reckon the other side will call us believers of Gods Sovereignty will come with all sorts of names for that....however, thats how I honor God......Well said, brother Guy! :thumbs:

 

[DaChaser1]

As I see it, at stake in this particular conversation is whether or not God is perfect and capable enough in the decisions He made ONCE in His will so as to have not made a mistake requiring a change of mind.

Some, obviously, have attributed to God the potential or actuality of making a mistake -- being wrong -- and I cannot forebear to even consider such an eventuality, for that is NOT the God of the Bible, but a god made in one's own image.

sounds like they prefer to have a God that has to have humans 'work" with him to make sure we get saved, and that everything will work out in the End!

 

[preacher4truth]

In short answer, non-Calvinists and Arminians, though not all, believe in a rationalized and toned down omniscience according to man's reason and logic, turning a blind eye to the revelation of Scripture.

 

[webdog]

sounds like they prefer to have a God that has to have humans 'work" with him to make sure we get saved, and that everything will work out in the End!

Do you "work" with the person giving you a gift...don't think you ever answered the last dozen times I asked this after one of your typical caricatures.

 

[quantumfaith]

In short answer, non-Calvinists and Arminians, though not all, believe in a rationalized and toned down omniscience according to man's reason and logic, turning a blind eye to the revelation of Scripture.

Wrong again.

 

[glfredrick]

Do you "work" with the person giving you a gift...don't think you ever answered the last dozen times I asked this after one of your typical caricatures.

You have presented a false rationale.

Yes, the gift giver GIVES a gift to someone. But that someone is entirely passive in the issue until after the gift is given.

When the giftee desires and begs for the gift, we often see he or she in terms not always pleasing, for they are indeed seen as greedy, manipulative, or otherwise ill-mannered.

So, I guess if you've asked this a dozen times, then I'll let my answer stand for all 12. :wavey:

 

[DaChaser1]

You have presented a false rationale.

Yes, the gift giver GIVES a gift to someone. But that someone is entirely passive in the issue until after the gift is given.

When the giftee desires and begs for the gift, we often see he or she in terms not always pleasing, for they are indeed seen as greedy, manipulative, or otherwise ill-mannered.

So, I guess if you've asked this a dozen times, then I'll let my answer stand for all 12. :wavey:

god gave me a blank check spiritual, all had to do to redeem it was to go to bank to pick it up, but he had to get me the car to get there first!

 

[preacher4truth]

god gave me a blank check spiritual, all had to do to redeem it was to go to bank to pick it up, but he had to get me the car to get there first!

Lol...:thumbsup:

Hey, folks can mock, ridicule, balk, find fault, point fingers, call it ugly or even the person stating this truth, but the fact remains:

In short answer, non-Calvinists and Arminians, though not all, believe in a rationalized and toned down omniscience according to man's reason and logic, turning a blind eye to the revelation of Scripture.

It's seen not in their statement of faith, but in what they actually teach. That's facing reality.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have to complement you DaChaser my brother......you are really getting to the heart of it. The HS must have been working on you buddy. :godisgood: