Do people “choose to believe”?

[atpollard]

From my experience when I believed on Christ, I never had to choose between believing and not believing...
When I heard the word of God, I simply knew it was true;
No choice or "pause" was presented to me, because I automatically knew the truth of it.

I have to say … YES AND AMEN!
Truth (with a capital ‘T’) has a quality all its own: you just know it when you hear it and it becomes impossible to unknow.

 

[Aaron]

On a too long thread now closed:

robycop3 said


RipponRedeaux responded:


That is a GOOD question for a discussion.

Do people “choose to believe”?
All people?
Some people?
Only after God gives them the gift of ‘belief’?

What do y’all think?


… and for those playing along on the HOME EDITION of our game:

[Philippians 1:29 NKJV] 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

[Acts of the Apostles 13:48 NKJV] 48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

[Acts of the Apostles 16:14 NKJV] 14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard [us]. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.

[Acts of the Apostles 18:27 NKJV] 27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;

No, of course not. One never chooses to believe or disbelieve anything. One is either convinced that a certain notion is true or he is not.

Can one choose to believe in Santa Claus? Little green men? That one is a man or a woman?

Belief is not an act, it is a state of being.

Related to this is the idea of love. No one chooses the objects of his affection. He is drawn to them. Now, there are choices one can make to either nourish or starve that love, but that which draws him just does.

 

[Iconoclast]

Rm

I have to assume that you see this idea of salvation being granted as some sort of support for the reformed idea of effectual election.

Reformed persons read and understand the verse as written. It is clear and quite plain. Salvation is granted by the work of the truine God in the Covenant of redemption.

I am rather puzzled at this claim as it is clear from scripture that “whosoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved” Romans 10:13

Well, let's solve the puzzle. Romans 10:13 is equally true. Everyone believing will be saved! That verse declares the result of a saving belief in the gospel. It does not declare the origin of such saving faith as Phil.1 :29 does. Is this really confusing?
Do you really think there is anyone verse that explains all that is involved in the work of God?

The granting comes from the responding to the free offer of salvation which is a gift Romans 6:23[/QUOTE]

The text does not say that anywhere. The believing comes from the work of the Spirit, jn3: eph2:1-4

Gifts are offered and then rejected or received but never imposed by the forceful changing of the will.

We are not talking about exchanging Christmas presents, but rather an unseen supernatural heart surgery by the Spirit of God.

The granting comes after the biblical response on our part has been made

This man centered thought is totally unbiblical and a rejection of biblical teaching which you attempt to explain away.

Getting to the crux of the matter here I assume the implication by reformed folks is that use of this “proof text” is intended to prove that salvation is appointed only to specific individuals in which He pre-selects to salvation.[/QUOTE]

Reformed folks learn the truth of scripture concerning the election.
Non-reformed persons attempt to explain the texts away
and convert it to man-centered theology to no avail.

such an imposition is a perversion of not inly the gospel itself but to the integrity of this passage of scripture

.

The only perversion here is coming from your keyboard trying to accuse the Reformed brothers.

This assault on scripture, however well meaning, ignores context in order to propagate this errant version of doctrine.The context being that they were dealing with the now inclusion of gentiles in the direct reception of the gospel. This appointment is in that context not individually.
[/QUOTE]

Only you and Leighton Flowers and his posse try and explain away the truth in such a foul manner. Do not attempt to put this on us.

The Lord opens up everyones heart through His word Romans 10:17

Only everyone who gets saved. You have no verse saying the Spirit opens the heart of the unsaved, yet you pronounce it so.

[Acts of the Apostles 18:27 NKJV] 27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;

This tells it was God's grace as the cause.

The grace is completed on the cross by paying the price for our sin. It is a perversion of the gospel to impose the errant view that grace is the imposed will on a few preselected.

Jesus in the COVENANT OF REDEMPTION completes the work of securing the elect, as their mediator and surety.
Election has to do with the Father giving the multitude to the Son and made effectual by the Spirit. It is a great blessing not a perversion as RM.is trying to post.

 

[percho]

I do nor know how many were in the traveling party but IMHO on the road to Damascus only one was going to be a believer.

 

[robycop3]

Note that here robycop3 is teaching salvation by legal merit.
First the person must choose from a pantheon of gods.
Second the person must willfully show that they believe.
Third, the person must continue to believe without waivering in order to keep abiding.

Therefore, if people choose to believe, then salvation is not by God's grace. Instead, salvation is by human choice and merited works in continually abiding.

Luke 12:18“Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Romans 10:13
For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Not one "whoever if pre-selected" in these verses.

 

[AustinC]

Luke 12:18“Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Romans 10:13
For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Not one "whoever if pre-selected" in these verses.

My friend, that is why you have the rest of the Bible...so you can know who the whoever are.

Romans 8:29-30
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Colossians 2:13-14
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Romans 9:14-28
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.”

There is your answer to the "whoever."

 

[robycop3]

My friend, that is why you have the rest of the Bible...so you can know who the whoever are.

Romans 8:29-30
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Colossians 2:13-14
And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Romans 9:14-28
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.”

There is your answer to the "whoever."

I readily admit some were pre-selected for special service to God. But again, not one "whoever if pre-selected" in any of those verses.

 

[AustinC]

I readily admit some were pre-selected for special service to God. But again, not one "whoever if pre-selected" in any of those verses.

It doesn't say preselected. It says...predestined. Predestined to salvation.
The whoever is the predestined. The ones whom the Father has given to Jesus.

John 10:25-29
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

There is how you know who the whoever are.

Do you really want to tell me that God is uncaring and clueless as to his children? Do you really want to cast God away and put all of salvation on the back of fallen humans to make the right choice? If so, then God and Jesus are secondary to salvation and perhaps unnecessary as all the work is human merit by intellectual divination. Your salvation is all your doing.

 

[George Antonios]

On a too long thread now closed:

robycop3 said


RipponRedeaux responded:


That is a GOOD question for a discussion.

Do people “choose to believe”?
All people?
Some people?
Only after God gives them the gift of ‘belief’?

What do y’all think?


… and for those playing along on the HOME EDITION of our game:

[Philippians 1:29 NKJV] 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

[Acts of the Apostles 13:48 NKJV] 48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

[Acts of the Apostles 16:14 NKJV] 14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard [us]. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.

[Acts of the Apostles 18:27 NKJV] 27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;

We're all choosing to argue, respond, and agree and disagree, aren't we?

 

[robycop3]

It doesn't say preselected. It says...predestined. Predestined to salvation.
The whoever is the predestined. The ones whom the Father has given to Jesus.

John 10:25-29
Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

There is how you know who the whoever are.

Do you really want to tell me that God is uncaring and clueless as to his children? Do you really want to cast God away and put all of salvation on the back of fallen humans to make the right choice? If so, then God and Jesus are secondary to salvation and perhaps unnecessary as all the work is human merit by intellectual divination. Your salvation is all your doing.

Seems you're the one casting Jesus away, by choosing "predestination", which is the same as "pre-selection". YOUR predestined, preselected people are saved no matter what. They don't have to so much as call on Jesus to save them. They're automatically saved.

OTOH, the rest of us must realize we're sinners, no matter how good we've been, must realize ONLY JESUS can save us from going to hell, believe in Him as Son of God, (& therefore also God) Savior, and LORD, that is, Master, and earnestly ask Him to forgive our sins & save us from hell. We must strive to be like Him as much as possible in behavior, except we don't have to be sacrificed upon a cross, & love, worship, & OBEY Him always. We have His commands to us in Scripture.

 

[robycop3]

We're all choosing to argue, respond, and agree and disagree, aren't we?

That happens in every Christian discussion board out there!

 

[George Antonios]

That happens in every Christian discussion board out there!

Of course. My point was that it is evident that people can choose to believe.

 

[Marooncat79]

John 15:16

 

[robycop3]

Of course. My point was that it is evident that people can choose to believe.

Yes!
While I'll readily be the first to admit that God has predestinated certain people for special service to Him, they still had to CHOOSE to serve Him. (However, He made "offers they couldn't refuse" to Moses, Jeremiah, Paul, & certain others.)

God is PERFECTLY-JUST. Creating one predestined for hell no matter what that one did, with no chance for salvation, would be about the MOST-UNJUST thing there could be. As He told Peter, He is willing that ALL should come to repentance, but He knows not all will. But all have the CHANCE.

 

[kyredneck]

From my experience when I believed on Christ, I never had to choose between believing and not believing...

I have to say … YES AND AMEN!
Truth (with a capital ‘T’) has a quality all its own: you just know it when you hear it and it becomes impossible to unknow.

Agree absolutely. And there's been many 'Bible epiphanies' along the journey where the truth of something just 'clicks', and you just know that's the way it is.

Back to the 'Exodus motif', it's the Christian that has the ability/responsibility to choose between good and evil, not the unregenerate.

Joshua 24:15

 

[Marooncat79]

Yes!
While I'll readily be the first to admit that God has predestinated certain people for special service to Him, they still had to CHOOSE to serve Him. (However, He made "offers they couldn't refuse" to Moses, Jeremiah, Paul, & certain others.)

God is PERFECTLY-JUST. Creating one predestined for hell no matter what that one did, with no chance for salvation, would be about the MOST-UNJUST thing there could be. As He told Peter, He is willing that ALL should come to repentance, but He knows not all will. But all have the CHANCE.

Wrong

we all deserve hell, it is a kind and wonderful who would choose to save anyone

if God were just, he would send us all to hell, but His justice is tempered by His mercy where He chooses to save some

all of the elect will def come to saving faith. If God literally chose all then His will is not 100% being done hence He is not God and He is not worthy of worship

lastly, we all have the chance. Really? What about those who never heard the Gospel? Do they inherit eternal life? Did they have a chance?

 

[atpollard]

We're all choosing to argue, respond, and agree and disagree, aren't we?

No one ever accused people of having trouble choosing to do what the FLESH desires (like bite and devour one another), the tricky part has always been choosing to do what God commands (just ask Adam and Eve).

 

[atpollard]

Back to the 'Exodus motif', it's the Christian that has the ability/responsibility to choose between good and evil, not the unregenerate.

Joshua 24:15

The part that is fascinating to me is that the UNREGENERATE seem to have no ability (John 6:44) but still have some responsibility (Romans 1:18-21) … a very curious paradox.

Yet to US has been granted the gift of both ability and responsibility (Joshua 24:15; Philippians 2:13). How much worse for us if we do not make the most of the grace that we have been given (Ephesians 2:10).

 

[robycop3]

Agree absolutely. And there's been many 'Bible epiphanies' along the journey where the truth of something just 'clicks', and you just know that's the way it is.

Back to the 'Exodus motif', it's the Christian that has the ability/responsibility to choose between good and evil, not the unregenerate.

Joshua 24:15

I agree that the Christian knows right from wrong, while the unsaved believe whatever they do is right.

 

[AustinC]

The part that is fascinating to me is that the UNREGENERATE seem to have no ability (John 6:44) but still have some responsibility (Romans 1:18-21) … a very curious paradox.

Yet to US has been granted the gift of both ability and responsibility (Philippians 2:13). How much worse for us if we do not make the most of the grace that we have been given (Ephesians 2:10).

I view the issue in this way:

As law breakers, we are held fully responsible for our actions of open rebellion. The judgment of the law must be meted out.

To have the justice against our law breaking deferred and placed upon Christ Jesus requires a conscious choice on God's part to graciously redeem us.

Thus, we are rightly judged as sinners with no ability on our part to sway the judge. We are entirely in the fate of the Judges choice.

We are fully responsible for our sin. God is fully responsible for our redemption.