Do people “choose to believe”?

[George Antonios]

No one ever accused people of having trouble choosing to do what the FLESH desires (like bite and devour one another), the tricky part has always been choosing to do what God commands (just ask Adam and Eve).

Yes, we know the Calvinist argument. I was a Calvinist for three years. But note that:
A) The scriptures never ever ever ever say that a lost man cannot do any one good spiritual deed.
They say he can never do any one spiritual deed good enough. That nuance is a world of difference.

B) Although hopefully led of the Spirit, as believers, we further, and sometimes only, use our natural capacities of understanding and reasoning to debate our points on the forum. A lost man has those same capacities which he can apply towards being persuaded - a term used by the scriptures, no less.
When Paul says that the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned, in context, he is saying that the natural man cannot discover spirituals truth through its own and only philosophy and reasoning - that it takes divine revelation as contained in the scriptures to discover God - and that if he's going to receive them, he will have to receive them by faith, not wisdom, a faith which he can exercise while unregenerate. That has nothing to do with the mere mental ability to at least understand 1) I'm a sinner, 2) I cannot save myself, 3) Jesus is the Son of God, and 4) Jesus alone can save me by his death and resurrection. All sinners young and old mentally understand that gospel.
And the gospel is not the deep things of God. It's simple. God made it simple precisely to make it understandable and precisely to take away man's excuse.

The part that is fascinating to me is that the UNREGENERATE seem to have no ability (John 6:44) but still have some responsibility (Romans 1:18-21) … a very curious paradox.

There is no paradox. It's the theology that's wrong. Maybe that's the alternative explanation?

 

[robycop3]

Wrong

we all deserve hell, it is a kind and wonderful who would choose to save anyone

if God were just, he would send us all to hell, but His justice is tempered by His mercy where He chooses to save some

all of the elect will def come to saving faith. If God literally chose all then His will is not 100% being done hence He is not God and He is not worthy of worship

God gives everyone the chance to be saved. Of course, there are some who wouldn't believe if Jesus were to appear, float in the air, & preach the Gospel in a super-loud voice, understood by all who heard it, & understood it regardless of their language.

lastly, we all have the chance. Really? What about those who never heard the Gospel? Do they inherit eternal life? Did they have a chance?

Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, nhave been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Man has never been able to make something from nothing; only GOD can do that.

Now, in physics, with an electron microscope, it's impossible to tell one proton from another. All have the exact same size & properties. But yet, different combos of protons form the nuclei of atoms of entirely-different elements. Who made those laws but GOD? And, given the proliferation of the Gospel today, modern man has less excuse.

Ancient man realized someone made everything, & worshipped as best he could. Same with American Indians who worshipped the "Great Spirit".

 

[AustinC]

God gives everyone the chance to be saved. Of course, there are some who wouldn't believe if Jesus were to appear, float in the air, & preach the Gospel in a super-loud voice, understood by all who heard it, & understood it regardless of their language.



Romans 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, nhave been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Man has never been able to make something from nothing; only GOD can do that.

Now, in physics, with an electron microscope, it's impossible to tell one proton from another. All have the exact same size & properties. But yet, different combos of protons form the nuclei of atoms of entirely-different elements. Who made those laws but GOD? And, given the proliferation of the Gospel today, modern man has less excuse.

Ancient man realized someone made everything, & worshipped as best he could. Same with American Indians who worshipped the "Great Spirit".

Tell me, those unreached people who never, in their lifetime, ever heard the gospel...how much "chance" were they given?
According to Romans 1, the only chance was observation of nature, but the writer tells us that humans substitute nature for God everytime.

Therefore, your assertion is false and proveably false both in general observation as well as biblical explanation.

Simply put...you are wrong.

 

[DaveXR650]

If you have a friend or relative who is not a Christian, and you pray for them what are you asking God to do?

 

[kyredneck]

The part that is fascinating to me is that the UNREGENERATE seem to have no ability (John 6:44) but still have some responsibility (Romans 1:18-21) … a very curious paradox.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will? Ro 9

 

[atpollard]

Paradox (definition): “something (such as a situation) that is made up of two opposite things and that seems impossible but is actually true or possible”

• Jesus answered them, "Stop complaining among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.” [John 6:43-44 CSB]
  
• “For God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, that is, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what he has made. As a result, people are without excuse.” [Romans 1:18-20 CSB]

To those that would explain it to me or those that would correct me … I am guilty of believing that BOTH of the above quotes are true.

 

[atpollard]

There is no paradox. It's the theology that's wrong. Maybe that's the alternative explanation?

No, the Bible is full of seemingly contradictory statement that are none the less both true. THEOLOGY doesn’t enter into it, just literacy, context and understanding … but the statements are contradictory at face value:

[Proverbs 26: CSB]
4 Don't answer a fool according to his foolishness or you'll be like him yourself.
5 Answer a fool according to his foolishness or he'll become wise in his own eyes.

 

[canadyjd]

Yes, we know the Calvinist argument. I was a Calvinist for three years. But note that:
A) The scriptures never ever ever ever say that a lost man cannot do any one good spiritual deed.
They say he can never do any one spiritual deed good enough. That nuance is a world of difference…..?

Where does scripture say, “….he can never do any one spiritual deed good enough”?

peace to you

 

[atpollard]

We're all choosing to argue, respond, and agree and disagree, aren't we?

… but can we CHOOSE to believe?
Is belief in anything really a “choice”?
Do you have the option to believe that you are a man or a woman, or do you just believe what you believe?

Do you choose each morning whether to continue to believe Arminianism or switch back to Calvinism … or do you just believe what you believe?

Where is the scripture that says belief is a choice?
Is there scripture that says belief is not a choice? (Perhaps it is a gift)?

This is more fundamental than Calvinism vs Arminianism proof texts and logical arguments.

 

[robycop3]

Tell me, those unreached people who never, in their lifetime, ever heard the gospel...how much "chance" were they given?
According to Romans 1, the only chance was observation of nature, but the writer tells us that humans substitute nature for God everytime.

Therefore, your assertion is false and proveably false both in general observation as well as biblical explanation.

Simply put...you are wrong.

No, I'm not.

Christians, including Paul, knew there were people in other areas of the world who'd never heard of God, people they'd not be able to reach, given the means of travel at that time. Naturally, hey wondered about the "fate" of those people.So, God told Paul they could know of Him by the creation. While those people didn't know WHO they were worshipping, they worshipped the Creator. God, of course, knew it wasn't THEIR fault they'd not heard of Him, So, long as they were worshipping the CREATOR, not the CREATION, He counted it as righteousness.

 

[canadyjd]

No, I'm not.

Christians, including Paul, knew there were people in other areas of the world who'd never heard of God, people they'd not be able to reach, given the means of travel at that time. Naturally, hey wondered about the "fate" of those people.So, God told Paul they could know of Him by the creation. While those people didn't know WHO they were worshipping, they worshipped the Creator. God, of course, knew it wasn't THEIR fault they'd not heard of Him, So, long as they were worshipping the CREATOR, not the CREATION, He counted it as righteousness.

Paul said God’s revelation of Himself in creation saved no one, not even one person. Every single person on the planet rejects God’s revelation of Himself in creation.

Please don’t attempt to hold God to your view of what is fair.

The one and only means of salvation is the proclamation of the gospel.

peace to you

 

[Marooncat79]

No, I'm not.

Christians, including Paul, knew there were people in other areas of the world who'd never heard of God, people they'd not be able to reach, given the means of travel at that time. Naturally, hey wondered about the "fate" of those people.So, God told Paul they could know of Him by the creation. While those people didn't know WHO they were worshipping, they worshipped the Creator. God, of course, knew it wasn't THEIR fault they'd not heard of Him, So, long as they were worshipping the CREATOR, not the CREATION, He counted it as righteousness.

I am totally stunned here

Someone please tell me that I misread that!!

if that is true, then there was no reason for Jesus to come and die

it would have been an unnecessary death by Gods Son

again, did I read that right?

 

[DaveXR650]

The above illustrates why theology is important. I think a lot of the Calvinist system for example is not necessary for you to be saved. You can come to Christ and throw yourself on His mercy without any understanding of why you did it or if your choice was yours. But like Michael Horton says theology acts as guardrails. See how easy it is to drift toward universalism or in the case of free will advocates Pelagianism. Also, many on here attack Calvinism because of some perceived unfairness if someone is not "elect". Yet, in all systems, except universalism you have to deal with the issue of unfairness if we are not really totally depraved and guilty to start with. The reality is we simply do not all have an equal chance at this so God is unfair if the salvation is my own choice.

 

[kyredneck]

I am totally stunned here

Someone please tell me that I misread that!!

Lol, I read it twice, you didn't misread.

if that is true, then there was no reason for Jesus to come and die

Yep

it would have been an unnecessary death by Gods Son

Yep

again, did I read that right?

Yep

 

[AustinC]

No, I'm not.

Christians, including Paul, knew there were people in other areas of the world who'd never heard of God, people they'd not be able to reach, given the means of travel at that time. Naturally, hey wondered about the "fate" of those people.So, God told Paul they could know of Him by the creation. While those people didn't know WHO they were worshipping, they worshipped the Creator. God, of course, knew it wasn't THEIR fault they'd not heard of Him, So, long as they were worshipping the CREATOR, not the CREATION, He counted it as righteousness.

Huh, I guess God lied in Romans 1 then.???
I count at least 3 times where the text says "God abandoned them."
You seem to be saying God didn't do what He says He did.

Romans 1:20-32

For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.

 

[AustinC]

The above illustrates why theology is important. I think a lot of the Calvinist system for example is not necessary for you to be saved. You can come to Christ and throw yourself on His mercy without any understanding of why you did it or if your choice was yours. But like Michael Horton says theology acts as guardrails. See how easy it is to drift toward universalism or in the case of free will advocates Pelagianism. Also, many on here attack Calvinism because of some perceived unfairness if someone is not "elect". Yet, in all systems, except universalism you have to deal with the issue of unfairness if we are not really totally depraved and guilty to start with. The reality is we simply do not all have an equal chance at this so God is unfair if the salvation is my own choice.

As RC Sproul once said, "Oh! It's fairness that you want!"
Let's see what happens when God, fairly and justly, deals with our sin.
I love the story Sproul tells about his students who began turning papers in late simply because he was lenient on one deadline. When he cut out the leniency, they all said" that's not fair."
...so it's fairness you want...

 

[robycop3]

Paul said God’s revelation of Himself in creation saved no one, not even one person. Every single person on the planet rejects God’s revelation of Himself in creation.

Please don’t attempt to hold God to your view of what is fair.

The one and only means of salvation is the proclamation of the gospel.

peace to you

Do you agree God's justice is perfect or not?

If yes, what do you believe that the perfectly-just God would do with people who, thru no fault of their own, had never heard of Him?

 

[robycop3]

I am totally stunned here

Someone please tell me that I misread that!!

if that is true, then there was no reason for Jesus to come and die

it would have been an unnecessary death by Gods Son

again, did I read that right?

If everyone was predestinated before being born, with no way to change that status, then Jesus' death wouldn't've been necessary.

 

[robycop3]

Huh, I guess God lied in Romans 1 then.???
I count at least 3 times where the text says "God abandoned them."
You seem to be saying God didn't do what He says He did.

Romans 1:20-32

For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God. Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles. So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relations with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men, and as a result of this sin, they suffered within themselves the penalty they deserved. Since they thought it foolish to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their foolish thinking and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, quarreling, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They invent new ways of sinning, and they disobey their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, are heartless, and have no mercy. They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, yet they do them anyway. Worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.

Do you agree that God is perfectly-just?

As I said, I believe that if those people who'd never heard of God whatsoever worshipped the CREATOR rather than the CREATION, then God counted that as righteousness.

How about the Indians who, before Europeans came to North America, held bison to be special, but worshipped the GREAT SPIRIT rather than the animals He'd created?

 

[Marooncat79]

If everyone was predestinated before being born, with no way to change that status, then Jesus' death wouldn't've been necessary.

Hebrews 9:22