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Do people which commit suicide automatically go to hell?
- Thread starter xdisciplex
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standingfirminChrist
New Member
Certainly all liars will end up in the lake of fire. But there again, lies can be repented of. Self-murder cannot.
If man's last act on the earth is evil, can it truly be said that that man was a good tree as Jesus spoke of? No good tree can bear evil fruit.
Again, how can one deny oneself and still be so selfish that one kills onesef? And if one murders oneself and is allowed entrance into the Kingdom, escaping the lake of fire, then Revelation 21:8 is clearly a lie.
It is undeniably in the Word that all murderers (and yes, all liars as well) shall be cast into the lake of fire.
Suicide is murdering oneself, there is no getting around that.
So, either Revelation 21:8 is truth and no murderer will inherit the Kingdom, or it is a lie and it is ok for anyone to play the part of God and take life and be guaranteed acceptance into the Kingdom.
Maybe John was lying when he also wrote that 'no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him' (1 John 3:15). That verse alone would show that the one who commits suicide was never saved; after all, suicide is murder.
If man's last act on the earth is evil, can it truly be said that that man was a good tree as Jesus spoke of? No good tree can bear evil fruit.
Again, how can one deny oneself and still be so selfish that one kills onesef? And if one murders oneself and is allowed entrance into the Kingdom, escaping the lake of fire, then Revelation 21:8 is clearly a lie.
It is undeniably in the Word that all murderers (and yes, all liars as well) shall be cast into the lake of fire.
Suicide is murdering oneself, there is no getting around that.
So, either Revelation 21:8 is truth and no murderer will inherit the Kingdom, or it is a lie and it is ok for anyone to play the part of God and take life and be guaranteed acceptance into the Kingdom.
Maybe John was lying when he also wrote that 'no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him' (1 John 3:15). That verse alone would show that the one who commits suicide was never saved; after all, suicide is murder.
xdisciplex
New Member
@ SFIC
I think you are taking this way too easy. It's always easy to simply judge something but maybe you have never been in a situation where suddenly everything seems so hopeless and you get this tunnel-view. This can happen in a few seconds. It can be a quick impulse. What do you do if you simply get an impulse and commit suicide in a second? Or what do you do if you simply freak out and cannot control yourself anymore? I think it's easy to judge suicide victims while sitting in front of a computer. Do you know what was going on in their minds?
After all it's just chemicals. If a drunk person cannot control herself anymore then where is the difference between a person which freaks out because of an imbalance and simply kills herself? I think you don't understand how fast this can happen. And keep in mind that you can impossibly know how you would act if all of a sudden a neurotransmitter in your brain was lacking. Nobody of us can say how he would react and if somebody says that he would not kill himself then this is simply arrogance. This is like me saying I would never do a certain sin. I would be careful with such claims.
This is like saying a real christian cannot become insane. It's the very same thing. When your brain is messed up you can also become insane. Or do you think that you could never become insane? But if you can become insane and lose control over yourself why can you not also kill yourself in a short-circuit reaction?
I am not talking about well considered suicide but rather about short-circuit reactions where you simply get an impulse and do it.
Have you never had an impulse to do something? I have had the strangest impulses which I cannot even explain. Sometimes when I sit somewhere and somebody walks in front of my feet I have had the impulse to trip this person up by raising my leg. I have no idea where this impulse came from. But it's scary.
Or another example are the people which jumped from the WTC! Did they consider suicide? Would you judge them? They saw no hope. They simply jumped even though this was their sure death but they didn't think they just jumped. Can you comprehend this? This is what I mean. When you commit suicide you don't think much, you also don't sit there and philosophize about your options, you just did it out of an impulse, at least in those cases where it is an impulse. And you think you can judge these people? I wouldn't judge them.
And murder is not the same as killing. I don't know if the bible makes this difference but there is a difference. Law also makes a difference between killing and murdering.
I think you are taking this way too easy. It's always easy to simply judge something but maybe you have never been in a situation where suddenly everything seems so hopeless and you get this tunnel-view. This can happen in a few seconds. It can be a quick impulse. What do you do if you simply get an impulse and commit suicide in a second? Or what do you do if you simply freak out and cannot control yourself anymore? I think it's easy to judge suicide victims while sitting in front of a computer. Do you know what was going on in their minds?
After all it's just chemicals. If a drunk person cannot control herself anymore then where is the difference between a person which freaks out because of an imbalance and simply kills herself? I think you don't understand how fast this can happen. And keep in mind that you can impossibly know how you would act if all of a sudden a neurotransmitter in your brain was lacking. Nobody of us can say how he would react and if somebody says that he would not kill himself then this is simply arrogance. This is like me saying I would never do a certain sin. I would be careful with such claims.
This is like saying a real christian cannot become insane. It's the very same thing. When your brain is messed up you can also become insane. Or do you think that you could never become insane? But if you can become insane and lose control over yourself why can you not also kill yourself in a short-circuit reaction?
I am not talking about well considered suicide but rather about short-circuit reactions where you simply get an impulse and do it.
Have you never had an impulse to do something? I have had the strangest impulses which I cannot even explain. Sometimes when I sit somewhere and somebody walks in front of my feet I have had the impulse to trip this person up by raising my leg. I have no idea where this impulse came from. But it's scary.
Or another example are the people which jumped from the WTC! Did they consider suicide? Would you judge them? They saw no hope. They simply jumped even though this was their sure death but they didn't think they just jumped. Can you comprehend this? This is what I mean. When you commit suicide you don't think much, you also don't sit there and philosophize about your options, you just did it out of an impulse, at least in those cases where it is an impulse. And you think you can judge these people? I wouldn't judge them.
And murder is not the same as killing. I don't know if the bible makes this difference but there is a difference. Law also makes a difference between killing and murdering.
xdisciplex
New Member
standingfirminChrist said:
Okay.
I guess since 1.Corinthians says that NO temptation will be too huge to bear you also never sin, right? Because the bible says it. NO temptation too huge to bear.
Or are you saying the bible is lying? If you cannot resist other temptations even though the bible says that NO temptation will be too huge then why should the temptation to kill yourself be any different? Tell me.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
I don't judge them, xdisciplex, I don't have to. The Bible already has judged them. Look again at 1 John 3:15
Was John lying?
You say it is arrogance to say I would never commit suicide? Well then, call me arrogant. I believe God is able to keep me from that hour of temptation. I also believe He gives me a way of escape.
As for going insane, no... I do not believe the child of God can go insane. His sheep hear his voice and will not listen to other gods. His Word declares that those who keep their minds on the Lord will be kept in perfect peace. I stand on His Word. He has promised to keep that which I have committed unto Him.
No, I am not arrogant. I stand upon the Word of God. I do not doubt His power and His promise.
Was John lying?
You say it is arrogance to say I would never commit suicide? Well then, call me arrogant. I believe God is able to keep me from that hour of temptation. I also believe He gives me a way of escape.
As for going insane, no... I do not believe the child of God can go insane. His sheep hear his voice and will not listen to other gods. His Word declares that those who keep their minds on the Lord will be kept in perfect peace. I stand on His Word. He has promised to keep that which I have committed unto Him.
No, I am not arrogant. I stand upon the Word of God. I do not doubt His power and His promise.
xdisciplex
New Member
So you have perfect peace all the time? Always perfect peace?????
Boy, that's amazing. I adore you for that. I wish I could have this, too.
Did Jesus also always have perfect peace? Even when he was praying in the garden? I don't know.
But I think it's dangerous to say what a real christian can have and what not.
And saying that a christian cannot become insane is also off. This is like saying a christian cannot get cancer. But I bet there are also people which say this....
After all there are also christians which say that if you sin you're not born again.
Boy, that's amazing. I adore you for that. I wish I could have this, too.
Did Jesus also always have perfect peace? Even when he was praying in the garden? I don't know.
But I think it's dangerous to say what a real christian can have and what not.
And saying that a christian cannot become insane is also off. This is like saying a christian cannot get cancer. But I bet there are also people which say this....
After all there are also christians which say that if you sin you're not born again.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Again, was John lying when he said that 'no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him"?
The Greek word for murderer is translated as 'man-slayer'. The Phillipian jailor would have killed himself, but Paul cried out and stopped him saying 'Do thyself no harm". The word for harm is evil. Again, suicide is evil. It is not of God. It is the ultimate act of rejection of Christ. And as pointed out, John plainly shows that one who kills, whether oneself, or another human being, does not have eternal life.
The Greek word for murderer is translated as 'man-slayer'. The Phillipian jailor would have killed himself, but Paul cried out and stopped him saying 'Do thyself no harm". The word for harm is evil. Again, suicide is evil. It is not of God. It is the ultimate act of rejection of Christ. And as pointed out, John plainly shows that one who kills, whether oneself, or another human being, does not have eternal life.
Standing, let me wade in here. I have been away from this board because my blood pressure was getting too high :<) Let me ask you some questions. 1. You made the statement that a "christian" can not go insane. Eight years ago my wife had a simple operation done at the hospital and there was an accident. Her heart stopped and she was given CPR. However it was a period of time before they got things going again. She suffered brain damage. She doesn't know who she is or who I am or our children. We still love her and take care of her at home with us. She is still my wife with her mind or without it. She was/is a preachers wife. She loved the Lord and had a wonderful testimomy. My question to you is this, did Susie lose her salvation?
2. If a Christion goes for a drive and is speeding (breaking the law) and then hits a tree, do they go to hell.
2. If a Christion goes for a drive and is speeding (breaking the law) and then hits a tree, do they go to hell.
tragic_pizza
New Member
Shiloh, let him consult his Big Book O' Absolute Answers first.
:BangHead::BangHead:
:BangHead::BangHead:
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Shiloh,
As to your wife, I am sorry to hear of this. No, I do not believe she is insane. Insanity is not the same as brain damage.
As to the Christian hitting a tree and losing his or her life, a question would be, did this person do this intentionally? Yes they sped, breaking the law, and yes we are to obey those who are in authority over us; so they were not obeying God's Word. I wonder how that lines up with 1 John 3:15? After all, they took their own life. But was it intentional? or accident? Does God look over accidental death? I think He does, as His Word speaks of those who kill unintentionally having one of six cities of refuge one could run to for safety.
As to your wife, I am sorry to hear of this. No, I do not believe she is insane. Insanity is not the same as brain damage.
As to the Christian hitting a tree and losing his or her life, a question would be, did this person do this intentionally? Yes they sped, breaking the law, and yes we are to obey those who are in authority over us; so they were not obeying God's Word. I wonder how that lines up with 1 John 3:15? After all, they took their own life. But was it intentional? or accident? Does God look over accidental death? I think He does, as His Word speaks of those who kill unintentionally having one of six cities of refuge one could run to for safety.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
tragic_pizza said:
My Big Book O' Absolute Answers is the Word of God. What is yours?
Sfic has been preaching his works based salvation here for quite a while now. It comes from his misunderstanding of what repentence is.
This is a thread where a person has come making statements calling for help. I dont think this is the thread for a theological argument.
XDX should be encouraged to seek help in person from a pastor. Not engaged in a theological argument.
This is a thread where a person has come making statements calling for help. I dont think this is the thread for a theological argument.
XDX should be encouraged to seek help in person from a pastor. Not engaged in a theological argument.
raying:standingfirminChrist
New Member
DeeJay said:
XDX did not come in asking for help for self about his/her depression. It was a lady's experiences that XDX was addressing, not his/her own.
I only addressed what the OP brought up from a biblical view. He/She wanted to know if a suicide would go to hell. I showed clearly in God's Holy Word that no murderer has eternal life abiding in Him. Since Jesus said He would never leave us, nor forsake us, I think John answered the question quite well.
xdisciplex said:
If you have read any of XDXs posts over the last few days then you know well that he is useing a story of a woman to rationalize things that he has been thinking about.
I dont know if XDX is suicidal, but I am pretty sure he is really depresed. Everybody else on this thread seems to get that. This is not an I am happy but curious thread. This is a I am depresed and thinking about things that I need help with thread.
xdisciplex
New Member
@ sfic
Do you know that some people become criminals or they lose all restrictions when a certain part of the brain is damaged? I have heard about this. What would you do if you had an accident and a part of your brain got damaged and even though you still function you lost all restrictions and become a criminal and then die? Would you go to hell? What if you even forgot that you were a christian?!
What if you cannot even remember it anymore?
I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are very dependant on our brains. Without your brain you're nothing. It's not that case that your "spirit man" controls everything even though some christians believe this mind over matter stuff.
The brain is like a complicated clock and if something gets out of control there then everybody will be affected by it be it christian or non-christian.
I think your argument is simply that God would never allow a real christian to kill himself ergo all christians which commit suicide are not real christians. I think this argument isn't convincing. God also allows accidents and other bad things to happen why should he not also allow this? Or what if a christian is driven into suicide by Satan?
Do you know that some people become criminals or they lose all restrictions when a certain part of the brain is damaged? I have heard about this. What would you do if you had an accident and a part of your brain got damaged and even though you still function you lost all restrictions and become a criminal and then die? Would you go to hell? What if you even forgot that you were a christian?!
What if you cannot even remember it anymore?
I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are very dependant on our brains. Without your brain you're nothing. It's not that case that your "spirit man" controls everything even though some christians believe this mind over matter stuff.
The brain is like a complicated clock and if something gets out of control there then everybody will be affected by it be it christian or non-christian.
I think your argument is simply that God would never allow a real christian to kill himself ergo all christians which commit suicide are not real christians. I think this argument isn't convincing. God also allows accidents and other bad things to happen why should he not also allow this? Or what if a christian is driven into suicide by Satan?
standingfirminChrist
New Member
If that is the case, then I have still answered the opening post from a Biblical perspective.
No murderer has eternal life abiding in him. All murderers will have their part in the lake of fire.
Suicides are bound for the lake of fire according to the Word of God.
No murderer has eternal life abiding in him. All murderers will have their part in the lake of fire.
Suicides are bound for the lake of fire according to the Word of God.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
xdisciplex said:
xdx,
According to the Word of God, no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. To say God makes exceptions makes God's Word a lie. We are not to turn God's truth into a lie.
The fact that John wrote that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him cannot be be twisted into some murderers have eternal life. No means No.
xdisciplex
New Member
DeeJay said:
The story of the woman is true. I read about it while researching an antidepressant. But This thread also contains my own thoughts about suicide.
I mean the question is actually what is too much? I mean the bible also says nobody will be tempted above what he can bear but does this mean that nobody sins? No.
What I have my problems with is how much can a person bear? Can you not always say that you could have tolerated more? But what if you can't? Do people which kill themselves think: Well, actually I could bear it but I think killing myself would be cool....
I don't think so.
There are things which I dont understand. I have heard the story of a woman which was seeking help from christians and the christians messed it up and tried to exorcize demons from the woman and the woman only needed love and then she killed herself and later on the christians realized they messed it up. These are things which I dont understand. Why didnt God save her somehow or send somebody else? Sometimes God saves people from suicide and sometimes not. I dont understand this.
xdisciplex
New Member
Have you ever hated somebody or felt like killing somebody?standingfirminChrist said:
I have. And I bet you have, too. We are all murderers, we all have it in us. The ability is there. The difference between you and me and a real murderer is that maybe you and me are too scared to kill someone or were too scared or that maybe you and me simply had no access to weapons. If I had had access to weapons in the past I might also have killed someone.
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