Do Pretierists/Ammillinialists Believe In the Physical Return Of Christ To the Earth?

[Grasshopper]

Lot of Heretics or near Heretics according to many of you.





NT Wright

"The word 'parousia' is itself misleading, anyway, since it merely means 'presence'; Paul can use it of his being present with a church, and nobody supposes that he imagined he would make his appearance flying downward on a cloud.. *The church expected certain events to happen within a generation and happen they did, though there must have been moments between AD30 and 70 when some wondered if they would and in consequence took up the Jewish language of delay. *Jerusalem fell; the good news of Jesus, and the kingdom of Israel's God, was announced in Rome, as well as in Jerusalem and Athens." (The New Testament and the People of God, Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, p. 463).



RC Sproul

"While partial preterists acknowledge that in the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D.70 there was a parousia, or coming of Christ, they maintain that it was not the parousia." (The Last Days (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1998, 158.)

*
"If the Olivet Discourse refers primarily to events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem and if the word generation refers to a forty-year period, then it is possible, if not probable, that Jesus' reference to his coming in Matthew 16:28 refers to the same events, not to the transfiguration or other close-at-hand events." (The Last Days According to Jesus, p. 55)


John Owen

"So upon or in the destruction of Jerusalem, Luke 21:27, the Son of man is said to 'come in a cloud, with power and great glory' - and they that escape in that desolation are said to 'stand before the Son of man, ver. 36."*


John Gill

"Ver. 26, And then shall they see the Son of man, etc. Not in person, but in the power of his wrath and vengeance; of which the Jews then had a convincing evidence, and full proof; and even of his being come in the flesh, as if the had seen him in person: this shows, that the sign of the Son of man, in Matt. xxiv. 30, is the same with the Son of man: coming in the clouds with great power and glory; not to judgment, but having taken vengeance on the Jewish nation, to set up his kingdom and glory in the Gentile world" (Mark 13:26)

Matthew Henry

(On Luke 21:29)
"Christ tells his disciples to observe the signs of the times, which they might judge by. He charges them to look upon the ruin of the Jewish nation as near."

*(On James 5:8-9)
"The coming of the Lord to punish the wicked Jews was then very nigh, when James wrote this epistle; and, whenever the patience and other graces of his people are tried in an extraordinary manner, the certainty of Christ's coming as Judge, and the nearness of it, should establish their hearts. The Judge is now a great deal nearer, in his coming to judge the world, than when this epistle was written, nearer by above seventeen hundred years; and therefore this should have the greater effect upon us. "
*
Eusebius

(On Matthew 24:34)
"And when those that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men." (Book III, Ch. 5)

 

[revmwc]

Several times. For one, read Micah 1:2-5 of His coming to bring judgment for the transgressions of Israel and Samaria.

Hear, all you peoples!
Listen, O earth, and all that is in it!
Let the Lord GOD be a witness against you,
The Lord from His holy temple.

For behold, the LORD is coming out of His place;
He will come down
And tread on the high places of the earth.

The mountains will melt under Him,
And the valleys will split
Like wax before the fire,
Like waters poured down a steep place.

All this is for the transgression of Jacob
And for the sins of the house of Israel.
What is the transgression of Jacob?
Is it not Samaria?
And what are the high places of Judah?
Are they not Jerusalem?

Question: When did these things ever happen? Mountains melting, valleys splitting. For that matter when did God "walk on the high places of the Earth"?

Isaiah 64:1-3 also speaks of God's having come down in the past.

Oh, that You would rend the heavens!
That You would come down!
That the mountains might shake at Your presence—

As fire burns brushwood,
As fire causes water to boil—
To make Your name known to Your adversaries,
That the nations may tremble at Your presence!

When You did awesome things for which we did not look,
You came down [past tense],
The mountains shook at Your presence.

Because these comings of the Father were non-physical (though there were always physical - as well as spiritual - consequences!) the coming of the Son was non-physical as well.

The shikinah Glory resided in the temple, that would be the Holy Spirit.

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
The Son breathed life into man.
John 1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Based of verse 3 the Son the Word breathed the breath into Adam after He created Him.
Genesis 3: 8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

The Son is always the visible member of the Godhead. So when Has he walked upon the earth with Adam and Eve, with Enoch Genesis 5: 24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
He was seen in the burning bush and on the Mountain by Moses. Everywhere God was seen in the O.T. it was the pre0incarnate Christ the Son. Noone has ever seen God (the Father) except the Son.


Colosians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:


I'll stand on these verses in Christ dwelleth the Godhead Bodily, in His physical Body.
I stand on verse 8 as well.

 

[JesusFan]

Lot of Heretics or near Heretics according to many of you.





NT Wright

"The word 'parousia' is itself misleading, anyway, since it merely means 'presence'; Paul can use it of his being present with a church, and nobody supposes that he imagined he would make his appearance flying downward on a cloud.. *The church expected certain events to happen within a generation and happen they did, though there must have been moments between AD30 and 70 when some wondered if they would and in consequence took up the Jewish language of delay. *Jerusalem fell; the good news of Jesus, and the kingdom of Israel's God, was announced in Rome, as well as in Jerusalem and Athens." (The New Testament and the People of God, Minneapolis, MN: Fortress Press, p. 463).



RC Sproul

"While partial preterists acknowledge that in the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D.70 there was a parousia, or coming of Christ, they maintain that it was not the parousia." (The Last Days (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1998, 158.)

*
"If the Olivet Discourse refers primarily to events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem and if the word generation refers to a forty-year period, then it is possible, if not probable, that Jesus' reference to his coming in Matthew 16:28 refers to the same events, not to the transfiguration or other close-at-hand events." (The Last Days According to Jesus, p. 55)


John Owen

"So upon or in the destruction of Jerusalem, Luke 21:27, the Son of man is said to 'come in a cloud, with power and great glory' - and they that escape in that desolation are said to 'stand before the Son of man, ver. 36."*


John Gill

"Ver. 26, And then shall they see the Son of man, etc. Not in person, but in the power of his wrath and vengeance; of which the Jews then had a convincing evidence, and full proof; and even of his being come in the flesh, as if the had seen him in person: this shows, that the sign of the Son of man, in Matt. xxiv. 30, is the same with the Son of man: coming in the clouds with great power and glory; not to judgment, but having taken vengeance on the Jewish nation, to set up his kingdom and glory in the Gentile world" (Mark 13:26)

Matthew Henry

(On Luke 21:29)
"Christ tells his disciples to observe the signs of the times, which they might judge by. He charges them to look upon the ruin of the Jewish nation as near."

*(On James 5:8-9)
"The coming of the Lord to punish the wicked Jews was then very nigh, when James wrote this epistle; and, whenever the patience and other graces of his people are tried in an extraordinary manner, the certainty of Christ's coming as Judge, and the nearness of it, should establish their hearts. The Judge is now a great deal nearer, in his coming to judge the world, than when this epistle was written, nearer by above seventeen hundred years; and therefore this should have the greater effect upon us. "
*
Eusebius

(On Matthew 24:34)
"And when those that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men." (Book III, Ch. 5)

So IF the Second Coming of the Lord happened in AD 70...
Why is this World STILL being run by Satan, at least the World system?
Why are we not in the Kingdom of God on earth?
Why have NONE of us been gloried as of yet?
Why war/famine/death/disease?

Strange that so many refer to God wrath on isreal as the tribulation of Jesus/Daniel...
problem is that Jesus said would be effecting like no other event, ALL would perish except he cut the days short for His elect...
Just where in the NT did it state that God is done away with Isreal, as Paul said God has NOT forgotten His people?

or do they all hold to a "secret" Coming and another One to come?

 

[revmwc]

The fact that you do not see the continuity between Testaments is part of the point. The fact that you see my referencing the OT as pointless tells me much about your hermeneutics. I suppose your Bible begins with John 1.



What do you suppose that "cloud received Him out of their sight" means? You make no mention of that and then fault me for not dealing with the verse. It doesn't fit your scenario.

These facts are right before us in this passage:
1. They look up at Jesus as He ascends.
2. A cloud hides Him from their view (verse 9) Are we agreed on this so far?
3. The last thing they see is the cloud, not Jesus.
4. The angel interrupts their gazing skyward and tells them that He will turn in like manner.

Oh well, not worth going over and over again.

Well the cloud that received Him would have been the Shikinah cloud, the Holy Spirit. He will return Zechariah 14:1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

Says He will put His feet on the Mount of Olives and the Mount of olives will split in half, that has not happened but it will when He returns before He reigns on the earth.

Zecahriah 14: 8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Christ will be KING of all the earth and He will reign from Jerusalem. The inhabitants of Jerusalem will live in safety, Jerusalem sure isn't in safety today but it will be when Christ reigns from it. This as well as John's writting in revelation that Christ will reign for 1000 years.

 

[asterisktom]

Well the cloud that received Him would have been the Shikinah cloud, the Holy Spirit. He will return Zechariah 14:1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

Says He will put His feet on the Mount of Olives and the Mount of olives will split in half, that has not happened but it will when He returns before He reigns on the earth.

Zecahriah 14: 8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Christ will be KING of all the earth and He will reign from Jerusalem. The inhabitants of Jerusalem will live in safety, Jerusalem sure isn't in safety today but it will be when Christ reigns from it. This as well as John's writting in revelation that Christ will reign for 1000 years.

No mention of the Father coming verses in Isaiah and Micah. And there are others I could have used.

You zipped over my verses of the hills melting like wax, but are staunchly literal on the Zechariah passage, the land splitting in half. You pick and choose which verses you ignore, or assign figurative meaning to - and which you hold fast as a literal certainties.

And that's fine, really. Just be aware that you are doing it.

 

[TomVols]

Do both believe in the Second Coming, and if yes, will he be coming back to earth, just as he said he will one day?

Yes. Why do messages have to have 10 characters?

 

[asterisktom]

The Son is always the visible member of the Godhead.

Oh? Where is that in the Bible?

So when Has he walked upon the earth with Adam and Eve, with Enoch Genesis 5: 24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
He was seen in the burning bush and on the Mountain by Moses. Everywhere God was seen in the O.T. it was the pre0incarnate Christ the Son. Noone has ever seen God (the Father) except the Son.

Not disputing this.

Colosians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments [Tom's comment:BTW, this is the STOICHEIA of my other thread, the "elements" that were to have melted.] of the world, and not after Christ.

9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:


I'll stand on these verses in Christ dwelleth the Godhead Bodily, in His physical Body.
I stand on verse 8 as well.

And... do you think that I do not believe all these things? Well, I am leery when people add little phrases to Scripture to make their case more appealing. Scripture does not say "in His physical body", but "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily". There is a subtle but instructive distinction.

 

[revmwc]

Several times. For one, read Micah 1:2-5 of His coming to bring judgment for the transgressions of Israel and Samaria.

Hear, all you peoples!
Listen, O earth, and all that is in it!
Let the Lord GOD be a witness against you,
The Lord from His holy temple.

For behold, the LORD is coming out of His place;
He will come down
And tread on the high places of the earth.

The mountains will melt under Him,
And the valleys will split
Like wax before the fire,
Like waters poured down a steep place.

All this is for the transgression of Jacob
And for the sins of the house of Israel.
What is the transgression of Jacob?
Is it not Samaria?
And what are the high places of Judah?
Are they not Jerusalem?

Question: When did these things ever happen? Mountains melting, valleys splitting. For that matter when did God "walk on the high places of the Earth"?

Isaiah 64:1-3 also speaks of God's having come down in the past.

Oh, that You would rend the heavens!
That You would come down!
That the mountains might shake at Your presence—

As fire burns brushwood,
As fire causes water to boil—
To make Your name known to Your adversaries,
That the nations may tremble at Your presence!

When You did awesome things for which we did not look,
You came down [past tense],
The mountains shook at Your presence.

Because these comings of the Father were non-physical (though there were always physical - as well as spiritual - consequences!) the coming of the Son was non-physical as well.

Micah 1:2 Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the LORD from his holy temple.

Where is the Lord's temple, in Micah's time it was still in israel, today the Holy Spirit resides in all believers.

3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.

Christ will come down at the end of the Tirbulation and tread upon the High places

4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.

Zecariah 14 answers this where the Mount of Plives splits under His feet when He comes back at the end of the Tribualtion to bring in His Millinium reign.

Isaiah 64:1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,

He hasn't rent the heavens yet, the Tribulation will see the heavens rent the sea rent great tribulation upon the earth God's judgement coming on the gentile dominion.

2As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence!


When He sets foot at His second coming the earth will melt the rivers will flow from Jerusalem. The nations will trimble when He comes.

3When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence.

The judgement of the flood was ridiculed but He came down and shut the door on the Ark. As the flood raged the mountains flowed down and geological changes took place.

4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

Until that time noone on earth had seen the wonders of heaven.

Jesus in his pre-incarnation was seen by Adam, Enoch, He shut the door of the Ark on Noah and the other 7, He came to Abraham and cught His arm, He appeared to Moses in the burning bush.
Through out scripture we see the pre-incarnate Christ in bodily form. Then He came born of a virgin to pay for our sins, came in a physical body and died on the cross to pay for our sins. The coming of the son of man was physical and His return at the rapture will be in the air for the bride His church and in His resurrection body at the second advent.

 

[asterisktom]

Isaiah 64:1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence,

He hasn't rent the heavens yet, the Tribulation will see the heavens rent the sea rent great tribulation upon the earth God's judgement coming on the gentile dominion.

2As when the melting fire burneth, the fire causeth the waters to boil, to make thy name known to thine adversaries, that the nations may tremble at thy presence!


When He sets foot at His second coming the earth will melt the rivers will flow from Jerusalem. The nations will trimble when He comes.

3When thou didst terrible things which we looked not for, thou camest down, the mountains flowed down at thy presence.

The judgement of the flood was ridiculed but He came down and shut the door on the Ark. As the flood raged the mountains flowed down and geological changes took place.

This passage is not about the Flood, but about more recent events. Verses 10 - 11 speak of Jerusalem and the Temple being burned with fire.

This is the judgment that God, the Father was described as coming down to.

So, once again, we have an invisible coming with spiritual and visible consequences. Just like what happened at AD70.

But thank you for at least quoting the verses and taking a stab at it. That speaks well of you.

Take care.

 

[revmwc]

This passage is not about the Flood, but about more recent events. Verses 10 - 11 speak of Jerusalem and the Temple being burned with fire.

This is the judgment that God, the Father was described as coming down to.

So, once again, we have an invisible coming with spiritual and visible consequences. Just like what happened at AD70.

But thank you for at least quoting the verses and taking a stab at it. That speaks well of you.

Take care.

It says nothing of the Jerusalem nor the temple being destroyed. Now in His earthly ministry Jesus said the temple would be destroyed so that not one stone would be left upon another. Matthew 24:1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

His prophecy came true when in 70 A.D. the Romans utterly destroyed the city and took the people into captivity. God used the Romans to fulfill prophecy as he used Nebuchadnezer to destroy it in the first dispersion.

 

[convicted1]

Do both believe in the Second Coming, and if yes, will he be coming back to earth, just as he said he will one day?

I am "amil", and I do believe that Jesus will come in the cloud to gather His children and take them home with Him. However, I do not believe He will ever step foot on this earth again. He will come, seperate the sheep from the goats, take the sheep home, and the goats will be destroyed with the world!! This earth will dissolve(melt with fervent heat, that is), and the dead in sin goats will burn in torment forever.

i am I AM's!!

 

[revmwc]

I am "amil", and I do believe that Jesus will come in the cloud to gather His children and take them home with Him. However, I do not believe He will ever step foot on this earth again. He will come, seperate the sheep from the goats, take the sheep home, and the goats will be destroyed with the world!! This earth will dissolve(melt with fervent heat, that is), and the dead in sin goats will burn in torment forever.

i am I AM's!!

So you don't believe this will be fulfilled.

Zecahriah 14: 8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

 

[convicted1]

So you don't believe this will be fulfilled.

Zecahriah 14: 8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Well, lemme see what I can say that can/will persuade you to see this the way I see it, Brother.

Zecahriah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Rev. 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

John 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

The "living waters" was fulfilled by Jesus' death on the cross.

Zech. 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Jesus is Lord over all the earth now!!

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Zech. 14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Here I believe that Jerusalem is referring to the Church. No matter what the world throws at the Church, it will withstand it because God will protect the Lamb's bride......or at least this is how I see it.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[revmwc]

Well, lemme see what I can say that can/will persuade you to see this the way I see it, Brother.



John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

Rev. 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

John 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

The "living waters" was fulfilled by Jesus' death on the cross.



Jesus is Lord over all the earth now!!

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.



Here I believe that Jerusalem is referring to the Church. No matter what the world throws at the Church, it will withstand it because God will protect the Lamb's bride......or at least this is how I see it.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

Revelation 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


None of this has occured, Satan has not been imprisioned for 1000 years and is not now imprisioned. Noone who has died and is now living is ruling from a throne on earth at this time, and Christ is to reign in the 1000 year period. Clearly none of this has happened.

Revelation 20:7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Nor this and all this must occur and Christ will as Zech says and as the book of revelation reveals will reign physically on teh earth for 1000 years.

Isaiah 9: 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Verse 6 Christ was born, the governement has yet to sit upon His shoulders, He is called wonderful counselor mighty God, the Prince of Peace, but we haven't received peace on earth yet, He hasn't sat upon the throne of David yet, therefore His Kingdom the earthly kingdom is yet to be established.

All these are yet future events they have yet to occur and when Christ is reigning on David's throne in the Millinial Kingdom then there will be peace on Earth.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The fact that you do not see the continuity between Testaments is part of the point. The fact that you see my referencing the OT as pointless tells me much about your hermeneutics. I suppose your Bible begins with John 1.[?QUOTE]
No, what I see is you wriggling like a fish on a hook. You tell other people to stick to your agenda; well you stick to Luke 1:11. If you want to discuss theophanies in the OT, that's fine. Start another thread.

What do you suppose that "cloud received Him out of their sight" means? You make no mention of that and then fault me for not dealing with the verse. It doesn't fit your scenario.

Not at all. The cloud is absolutely central to the Bible account and to my argument.

These facts are right before us in this passage:
1. They look up at Jesus as He ascends.
2. A cloud hides Him from their view (verse 9) Are we agreed on this so far?
3. The last thing they see is the cloud, not Jesus.
4. The angel interrupts their gazing skyward and tells them that He will turn in like manner.

Oh well, not worth going over and over again.

Well worth going over and over again until you, or at least anyone who might be deceived by your arguments, understand.

The Lord Jesus is visible to the disciples. He starts to ascend before their eyes. They see Him ascend until 'a cloud received Him out of their sight.' They ae still standing looking upwards until two angels come to speak to them and tell them that the Lord 'Will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.' 'As you saw...' They saw Him go. He rose visibly. He will return visibly. A cloud receive Him out of their sight; a cloud will reveal Him into the sight of those living at that time. He rose up from the earth; He will descend to the earth.

The Corinthian and Thessalonian Christians were eagerly waiting for the return of Christ (1Cor 1:7; 1Thes 1:10). Are you saying that they missed Him? The news of the fall of Jesusalem would not have reached Greece for at least a couple of weeks. You're saying that Christ returned, the elements melted in the fervent heat, the new heaven and new earth was set up, yet Christians living in Greece or Rome would not have known anything about it until they read about it in the newspapers? Do me a favour!

The position of Christians today should be that of the Corinhians and Thessalonians. We should be eagerly awaiting the imminent return of Christ. maybe it will be today; maybe it will be in a thousand years time, but it will come (2Peter 3:10), and we shall be in no doubt about it when it happens. Every eye will see Him.

Steve

 

[asterisktom]

The fact that you do not see the continuity between Testaments is part of the point. The fact that you see my referencing the OT as pointless tells me much about your hermeneutics. I suppose your Bible begins with John 1.[?QUOTE]
No, what I see is you wriggling like a fish on a hook. You tell other people to stick to your agenda; well you stick to Luke 1:11. If you want to discuss theophanies in the OT, that's fine. Start another thread.




Not at all. The cloud is absolutely central to the Bible account and to my argument.

Well worth going over and over again until you, or at least anyone who might be deceived by your arguments, understand.

The Lord Jesus is visible to the disciples. He starts to ascend before their eyes. They see Him ascend until 'a cloud received Him out of their sight.' They ae still standing looking upwards until two angels come to speak to them and tell them that the Lord 'Will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.' 'As you saw...' They saw Him go. He rose visibly. He will return visibly. A cloud receive Him out of their sight; a cloud will reveal Him into the sight of those living at that time. He rose up from the earth; He will descend to the earth.

The Corinthian and Thessalonian Christians were eagerly waiting for the return of Christ (1Cor 1:7; 1Thes 1:10). Are you saying that they missed Him? The news of the fall of Jesusalem would not have reached Greece for at least a couple of weeks. You're saying that Christ returned, the elements melted in the fervent heat, the new heaven and new earth was set up, yet Christians living in Greece or Rome would not have known anything about it until they read about it in the newspapers? Do me a favour!

The position of Christians today should be that of the Corinhians and Thessalonians. We should be eagerly awaiting the imminent return of Christ. maybe it will be today; maybe it will be in a thousand years time, but it will come (2Peter 3:10), and we shall be in no doubt about it when it happens. Every eye will see Him.

Steve

At this point you are being rather rude. This "worm" is not interested in silly arguments. Believe what you want.

 

[HankD]

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.​

It says "every eye shall see Him" the physical "eye" shall "see" Him not His retribution or Titus but "Him".​

Acts 1
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

He (this same Jesus) will return bodily (like manner).​

Apparently to the same place:

Zechariah 14
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.​

Isaiah 2

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

HankD​

 

[Martin Marprelate]

At this point you are being rather rude. This "worm" is not interested in silly arguments. Believe what you want.

By the standards of this Board, I'm being a pussy-cat. However, pretending to be offended is a good way to avoid responding to arguments.

Steve

 

[asterisktom]

By the standards of this Board, I'm being a pussy-cat. However, pretending to be offended is a good way to avoid responding to arguments.

Steve

I'm not "pretending" or avoiding anything. I know that there are some people on this board - a minority, thankfully - who actually enjoy argument. I'm just not one of them. Arguments can be really good if they go somewhere. I don't want to waste time discussing important, but detailed, topics with someone who shows no courtesy to the opponent. That never bodes well for discussion.

Furthermore, I have already written quite a bit on those verses from your last paragraphs. You can see them in the archives. It just gets so tiresome.

 

[just-want-peace]

Boy does this thread ever make me thankful that I read the Word LITERALLY, unless by statement and/or context directed otherwise. Sure does save a lot of confusion.:thumbsup:

Once the idea of "Scripture says ---, but what it REALLY means is ----" takes root, there's no stopping the decline of interpretation to be whatever you deem suitable to create your own personal comfort/guilt zone!!

I throw in the "guilt" parameter because it seems that some Christians feel guilty that the the rapture will make them miss the trib; it's almost like they don't feel worthy unless they have been persecuted. Well, if the rapture is delayed too many years, there's a great chance you WILL feel the sting of persecution in the USA, based on the direction our country is taking at present.