Do We ALL Agree that Man is Both Depraived And Spiritual Inable To Come To God?

[webdog]

Then all men will go to heaven.

...or we adjust our theology to match what the Bible says and not a confession

is Acts 17:26-27 speaking of only the "elect"? Is there even the slightest chance they will "perhaps" (v.27) not reach out for Him?

 

[DHK]

Whoever said He did? That is certainly not a Calvinistic belief. But nor does He open the heart and then give a choice of whether to believe or not. That could mean that Richard Dawkins is regenerate, but has just chosen not to believe! No, faith is a part of the New Birth. God takes away the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh that will respond to the Gospel message with repentance and faith. 'Salvation is of the Lord' (Jonah 2:9). Every part of it, including faith.

Salvation is of the Lord. All of it. However faith is not a work. When Jesus said on the cross "It is finished," he meant his work, the sacrificial atoning for sins was done. What remained was his burial and resurrection. Salvation is a gift to be received. It must be received by faith; not God's faith, but one's own faith. To think that I could receive salvation with God's faith is absurd! I must receive his gift thankfully with my faith that I put in him. Again faith is not a work.

Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (John 6:28-29)

The Jews wanted to know what work they could do in order to work their way to heaven. Jesus makes a play on words. There is no way one can work their way to heaven. Salvation is not by works. Thus Jesus says: This is the work of God that ye may believe on him whom he hath sent.
--Salvation is not of works. Jesus calls faith a work because it isn't. He is making a play on words. There is nothing that you can do but believe. Believing (faith) is not a work. This is the teaching of Christ.
Faith does not come from God. It is not a gift of God. It comes from hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17)

Oh yes He did. Otherwise you would be in unbelief to this very day.

Your opinion. Unsubstantiated by the Bible, as it has been throughout five threads now. (not just you, but by the many others who have posted). They all make the same statement but give it no Scriptural support. Why should I believe you if you can't support it with Scripture?

Again, you are reading Acts 16:14 wrongly. Look at it again. God opened her heart. To do what? To make her own decision? No! To heed the things spoken by Paul. God opened her heart to believe.

God? God's Word? God the Holy Spirit? Perhaps.
But did God give her faith to believe? No.
God never gives the unregenerate spiritual gifts.
God never gives the unregenerate the fruit of the Spirit.
Lydia had to put her faith in the message of the Bible--the gospel. In the message that Paul gave her, she accepted by faith.

I agree. No evidence whatsoever. The faith comes when the heart is opened.

No, faith comes when one is convinced of the truth of the message.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
Is there a problem with Scripture or a problem with Calvin?

Who disagrees with this? Not Calvinists. God saves through the hearing of His word. But, 'The natural man does not receive the things of God.' If God does not give men faith, they will not believe. As God says, 'All day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and contrary people' (Isaiah 65:2; Rom 10:21).

Apparently Calvinists do disagree.
First you have taken Scripture out of context.
1Cor.2:14 is speaking of the doctrine of illumination. Take the entire passage 2:11-15 and put it in its context. The Corinthians were able to understand the Scriptures because of the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. The unsaved could not because they did not have that advantage. God illumines the mind of the believer and gives him understanding of the Scripture. That is what Paul was teaching in that passage. Proof-texting is a bad way to make your point. The verse says nothing about God giving faith.
Rom.10:21 speaks of God's relationship with Israel. It says nothing about God giving faith.

With respect, you are all over the place here. You cannot give birth to yourself. 'Not of the will of the flesh.' Your own fallen will cannot save you. You cannot believe in order to be born again. One is born again by the power of God and one believes by the power of God. Isn't it wonderful? All of Him; none of me. Praise His Name!

If your view on the new birth were correct then the Spirit of God would descend on the occasional pygmy in Africa, Maori in New Zealand, Eskimo in NWT, all of whom have never heard the Gospel and are ignorant of Christianity, and by some supernatural, cosmic intervention would be regenerated by God's grace because no faith, absolutely nothing is needed on their part. This is ridiculous. They just need to be born. They are completely passive. They are elected. They will be born again whether or not they ever hear the gospel and have the chance to put their faith in it. That is an absurd theology.

One is born again because he has the opportunity to put his faith in the gospel, and having done thus God makes him one of his own children, and he enters into his family.
Read again John 1:12.

Exactly so. Faith is a gift of God. It is to be received as such, and God is to be honoured as the Author of our salvation. Every single part of it.

Steve

The Bible never says faith is a gift of God--never.
It says salvation is a gift from God.
Eternal life the gift of God. But not faith. God does not give spiritual gifts to the unregenerate. You make a statement but cannot back it up with Scripture.

 

[preacher4truth]

Whoever said He did? That is certainly not a Calvinistic belief. But nor does He open the heart and then give a choice of whether to believe or not. That could mean that Richard Dawkins is regenerate, but has just chosen not to believe! No, faith is a part of the New Birth. God takes away the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh that will respond to the Gospel message with repentance and faith. 'Salvation is of the Lord' (Jonah 2:9). Every part of it, including faith...
Again, you are reading Acts 16:14 wrongly. Look at it again. God opened her heart. To do what? To make her own decision? No! To heed the things spoken by Paul. God opened her heart to believe...'The natural man does not receive the things of God.' If God does not give men faith, they will not believe. As God says, 'All day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and contrary people' (Isaiah 65:2; Rom 10:21)...With respect, you are all over the place here. You cannot give birth to yourself. 'Not of the will of the flesh.' Your own fallen will cannot save you. You cannot believe in order to be born again. One is born again by the power of God and one believes by the power of God. Isn't it wonderful? All of Him; none of me. Praise His Name! ...Faith is a gift of God. It is to be received as such, and God is to be honoured as the Author of our salvation. Every single part of it.

Steve

Very sound and Biblical apologetic Steve. Amen to all you've said, you've spoken truth here with great points. :thumbsup:

It is all God, He does ALL the saving.

- Grace and Peace to you

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

...or we adjust our theology to match what the Bible says and not a confession

Who is we ....also note the confessions have scriptural proof texts below to support them plus probably the best theologians of the day, plus ..... I like confessions:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Preach...... do any of these guys debating us appear to be agents of the devil.... (ya neva know) Jersey speak.:smilewinkgrin:

 

[webdog]

Who is we ....also note the confessions have scriptural proof texts below to support them plus probably the best theologians of the day, plus ..... I like confessions:smilewinkgrin:

Why did you ignore the rest of my post? How does your confession square with the Scripture I posted? How is ther room for a "perhaps" in the irresistable grace department?

 

[TomVols]

Administrative warning

We've reached the ten page mark. Wrap it up.

 

[Iconoclast]

Where did this red herring come from.
The subject is "seeking God," not others, or anything else.

DHK,
It came from here...

Originally Posted by quantumfaith
If man (mankind) is totally unable to "seek" God how come people seem to do it the world over in such a multitude of ways, Islam, Hinduism, etc.

No red herring ,just responding to this idea...

WEBDOG

the foundational aspect of the cross does not hinge on Augustinian doctrine. Your "package deal" leads to universalism if man is automatically placed in Adam sans sinning...and this is everyone...these same "all" must be automatically placed in christ sans faith.

Let me say this again....

The ALL in Adam.....are all men born everywhere, from all time

The All IN CHRIST...are all persons who are adopted by God ,and born from above....
Remember I asked you to draw a big circle= all in adam
draw another circle inside the first one=all IN Christ

Only those who are in both circles go to heaven=those in Christ
Those who remain in the outer circle...remain dead in Adam

This verse uses the word ALL......but you wrongly conclude that all that are in Adam...have to all be in Christ.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Willis......I posted this for WEBDOG the other day...now for you and dhk.
you said;

Now, Brother, I am gonna have to put you to a challenge on what I bolded. Show me where it states that in Adam all died(past tense). Here's the closest thing I could find going through this link:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/searc...+all+die&t=KJV


1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Now, in Adam, all die is correct. It doesn't state "all died

Willis...
here it is for you.....

1230 The use of the aor. in both Romans passages, in their given context, point to an event,


i.e., mankind did not simply inherit a sinful nature or tendency from Adam—“all have sinned,” thus
referring to personal experience and activity, but “all sinned” in an event or point in time (Rom. 3:23,

pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently
constantly coming short…” Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-|
pa,ntej h[marton. “by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a
sinner by imputation, by nature and by personal activity.461

 

[Alive in Christ]

Do We ALL Agree that Man is Both Depraived And Spiritual Inable To Come To God?

1) Depraved? Yes.

2) Spiritually unable to come to God?

Since Christ said it was not His desire that any should perish, but that all should come to repentantance, and given that God gives potentially saving "Light" to every human being who comes into the world, the clear answer to #2 is...

No. We should of course NOT agree with that.

AiC

 

[quantumfaith]

Seeking and worshipping Satan is not "seeking God"


20But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.


Robert Snow.....calvinists are not answering because the blind are leading the blind. To deny all died in Adam is to deny the foundational aspect of the cross......at that one point in time...all sinned...at that point in time all died.
Adam sin imputed Christ righteousness imputed.....it is a package deal

Iconoclast,

Do you agree or disagree that man (mankind) was created (designed) to have fellowship with the creator (God)?

 

[DHK]

DHK,

1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Now, in Adam, all die is correct. It doesn't state "all died

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (Romans 5:17)

Death is separation; separation from God when spoken of spiritually.
Spiritual death--death by sin.
By one man's offence death (separation from God) reigned by or because of one man.
The gift of righteousness (not the gift of faith) shall reign by or because of one--Jesus Christ. But you must receive the gift. Every gift is received by faith.

 

[quantumfaith]

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (Romans 5:17)

Death is separation; separation from God when spoken of spiritually.
Spiritual death--death by sin.
By one man's offence death (separation from God) reigned by or because of one man.
The gift of righteousness (not the gift of faith) shall reign by or because of one--Jesus Christ. But you must receive the gift. Every gift is received by faith.

Great observation. Great post.

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast,

Do you agree or disagree that man (mankind) was created (designed) to have fellowship with the creator (God)?

quantum,
Adam and Eve did have this fellowship with God before the fall.....

dying thou shalt surely die....

This fellowship is now only available in Christ...not outside of Him..

So unless a man is restored as an true image bearer...he is totally unable to have this fellowship..

these persons seek a god of their own imagination,and creation and the True and living God hates this false worship...they seek a god that does what they want him to do......that is why corinthians speaks of it as idolatry.

psalm 14 points out that no one seeks the true God.... benjamin.....I did not see this quoted on your list.

 

[Iconoclast]

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (Romans 5:12)

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (Romans 5:17)

Death is separation; separation from God when spoken of spiritually.
Spiritual death--death by sin.
By one man's offence death (separation from God) reigned by or because of one man.
The gift of righteousness (not the gift of faith) shall reign by or because of one--Jesus Christ. But you must receive the gift. Every gift is received by faith.

DHK...i agree with this...iwas quoting Willis who offered a challenge to me .