Do We All have the same Kind Of Free Will as adam Had From God?

[MB]

1 Cor 2 (HCSB)
13 We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people. 14 But the unbeliever does not welcome what comes from God’s Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually. 15 The spiritual person, however, can evaluate everything, yet he himself cannot be evaluated by anyone.


Unbelievers don't "get it" because they are not born of the Spirit.

These scriptures you have posted are right about what they are speaking about. However what they are speaking about is in verse 10. If you'll read from verse 10 d0wn you would get a much clearer picture of what is really being said.
The gospel is not the deep things of God. Understanding of the gospel Salvation was sent to the gentiles and they have heard and understood it . It's the New Testament.
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

These scriptures you have posted are right about what they are speaking about. However what they are speaking about is in verse 10. If you'll read from verse 10 d0wn you would get a much clearer picture of what is really being said.
The gospel is not the deep things of God. Understanding of the gospel Salvation was sent to the gentiles and they have heard and understood it . It's the New Testament.
MB

Because God has given believers His Spirit to reveal divine truth....even the deep things does not change the fact that a man devoid of the Spirit cannot receive divine truth.....he cannot.....he does not have the power or ability...
Can he be religious yes.....but not biblically alive

can he espouse new age religion/ yes but not truth

Does he have ...a little bit of true spiritual understanding....no he cannot

Can he be philosophical....and resist the truth...saying you are "begging" the question" or commiting debate falacies..yes he can...but it takes the Spirit of God to allow the word of God to be revealed in power.

 

[Amy.G]

These scriptures you have posted are right about what they are speaking about. However what they are speaking about is in verse 10. If you'll read from verse 10 d0wn you would get a much clearer picture of what is really being said.
The gospel is not the deep things of God. Understanding of the gospel Salvation was sent to the gentiles and they have heard and understood it . It's the New Testament.
MB

That's what I said.

In a previous post I said that unbelievers could understand they were sinners in need of a Savior, but not able to understand the scriptures, meaning they can understand the gospel and be saved.

 

[JesusFan]

I don't think the bible is teaching that lost people can't understand the scriptures, I think it teaches that without God's work in discerning these the mysterious truths by inspiring the writing of scripture no one could understand it.

In other words, the mysteries would not be known if not for the work of the Spirit in inspiring the words of scriptures. That is the means God has chosen to reveal his truth to all mankind. Believers and unbelievers alike walk away with different interpretations of the text, but we can't blame that on the Spirit. He got it right when He inspired its writing.

Would you agree with fal that we do NOT have sin natures, but free will to excercise to bring us to Christ?

 

[convicted1]

That's what I said.

In a previous post I said that unbelievers could understand they were sinners in need of a Savior, but not able to understand the scriptures, meaning they can understand the gospel and be saved.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[DaChaser1]

Because God has given believers His Spirit to reveal divine truth....even the deep things does not change the fact that a man devoid of the Spirit cannot receive divine truth.....he cannot.....he does not have the power or ability...
Can he be religious yes.....but not biblically alive

can he espouse new age religion/ yes but not truth

Does he have ...a little bit of true spiritual understanding....no he cannot

Can he be philosophical....and resist the truth...saying you are "begging" the question" or commiting debate falacies..yes he can...but it takes the Spirit of God to allow the word of God to be revealed in power.

its because many here misunderstand what we mean by the term "total depravity"...

they hold to us meaning person always evil, cannot do good works, cannot "have faith" in God etc...

We mean it to mean as you posted here...

that while depraived, man can have religion, can have 'faith" a head belief in false gods and religions that we have made up, as we can see in nature that there is a higher being, God, but fultile in our own thinking, so we make up our own image of him, and make up worship and religion around "that god!"

being depraived by birth, can know that there is a God due to natural revelation, but cannot 'reason/think" way to the true God in a relationship way, that is why we NEED special revelation, bible, and work of the HS to save us!

 

[Benjamin]

Unbelievers don't "get it" because they are not born of the Spirit.

And now for the rest of the story, how is one born in the spirit, the moment they believe in love of truth. Without the ability to believe it would make the Gospel a message only for the specially pre-selected few that were pre-determined to be able to respond to it, and if that were the case what would God’s judgment be based on if not the responsibility to respond to the message of the Gospel? Was God just pulling our pre-determined legs with His revelation and purpose of bringing light into all the world?

(Deu 32:1) Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.

(Deu 32:2) My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

(Deu 32:3) Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.



PS> I'm not saying to you that I think you don't believe all men, and women, have the volitional nature to freely accept the Gospel, just making a point. :tonofbricks: ...I don't think I should be having to be defending the Gospel to be a genuine offer to all God's creatures. I'm outta here. Bye all.

 

[Skandelon]

1 Cor 2 (HCSB)
13 We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people. 14 But the unbeliever does not welcome what comes from God’s Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually. 15 The spiritual person, however, can evaluate everything, yet he himself cannot be evaluated by anyone.


Unbelievers don't "get it" because they are not born of the Spirit.

I understand your point, I just don't think that was Paul's point. Follow me here.

The spirit was inspiring Paul to write I Corinthians, right? So, wouldn't that be the means God has chosen to 'spiritually discern' those mysteries? According to the following verses, even the brethren of that church weren't able to accept these 'deep truths' (meat). They needed an inspired apostle to help them discern the mysteries...thus the letter (scripture).

There is no reason to assume that a lost person couldn't pick up this letter and understand it's content, even if they chose to reject it as truth. How many scholars of the scripture are in hell? It's not about understanding scriptures, its about understanding the 'deep things of God's spirit' (vs. 10), those things not yet discerned (inspired and written for us to understand). This is why scripture has authority, after all. If we were all able to spiritually discern unrevealed mysteries of God's spirit, then we could all write scriptures today, couldn't we?

 

[Skandelon]

Just a quick add on:

Could a lost person understand the mysteries revealed in scripture without the revelation of scripture? NO. But we must acknowledge that scripture itself is a work of the Spirit bringing discernment for all to be able to read it (hear it) and understand its truth. No one has the ability to claim the excuse, "I just couldn't understand because the Spirit didn't discern it for me." God is CLEARLY made known (ref. Romans 1).

Edit: Also, it should be noted that many have a differing view of the word "understanding" which causes much confusion on this point. The term "understanding" to some means consent or agreement, which is not correct IMO. Understanding means having sufficient comprehension for an informed response.

 

[Amy.G]

Just a quick add on:

Could a lost person understand the mysteries revealed in scripture without the revelation of scripture? NO. But we must acknowledge that scripture itself is a work of the Spirit....

Yes scripture is a work of the Spirit so that we can rest assured that it's true.

....bringing discernment for all to be able to read it (hear it) and understand its truth.

No. Paul makes it clear that not ALL are able to understand it.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

An unbeliever does not have the ability to discern spiritual things. They are foolishness to him.

 

[Van]

Reply to Skandelon,

I don't think the bible is teaching that lost people can't understand the scriptures, I think it teaches that without God's work in discerning these the mysterious truths by inspiring the writing of scripture no one could understand it.

In other words, the mysteries would not be known if not for the work of the Spirit in inspiring the words of scriptures. That is the means God has chosen to reveal his truth to all mankind. Believers and unbelievers alike walk away with different interpretations of the text, but we can't blame that on the Spirit. He got it right when He inspired its writing.

Well it is certainly true if God did not reveal Himself to mankind, we would have no actual understanding of Him, but would hold to the inventions of men, i.e pagan religions.

But the work of the Spirit in revelation goes beyond the act of inspiring scripture. Certainly an indwelt believer grows in spiritual maturity only with the help of God who is doing a "good work" in all of us.

However, what many claim, with the need for the internal call, is that fallen mankind cannot respond to the call of the gospel. Pure fiction.

Paul explains that without being indwelt men of flesh cannot understand the things of the Spirit of God, i.e. the things learned with the aid of our indwelt Helper. However, Paul goes on to say men of flesh can understand and learn from the milk of the gospel, 1 Corinthians 2:14-3:3.

 

[Skandelon]

Well it is certainly true if God did not reveal Himself to mankind, we would have no actual understanding of Him, but would hold to the inventions of men, i.e pagan religions.

But the work of the Spirit in revelation goes beyond the act of inspiring scripture. Certainly an indwelt believer grows in spiritual maturity only with the help of God who is doing a "good work" in all of us.

Agreed. I just reject the concept that someone must be saved (spiritually indwelled) before they can understand the truths revealed in scripture. Understanding is different from acceptance. Some think that if someone REALLY understands a truth that they MUST accept it, and that is simply untrue. The people in Romans 1 CLEARLY understood that which they rejected, which is the very reason they were 'without excuse.' Thus, any doctrine which attempts to teach that most of humanity can't really understand the clearly revealed truth of God is in error.

Yes, the spirit guides and comforts us into a deeper more full understanding that can only come through relationship, but still; those without the spirit have NO EXCUSES.

 

[Skandelon]

No. Paul makes it clear that not ALL are able to understand it.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

An unbeliever does not have the ability to discern spiritual things. They are foolishness to him.

Again, we may be speaking past each other. Do you agree with my definition of 'understanding?'

Because someone can have an understanding of something and think it is foolish. For example, having been a religion major, I understand Buddhism but I still find it foolish. See the difference?

 

[Amy.G]

Again, we may be speaking past each other. Do you agree with my definition of 'understanding?'

Because someone can have an understanding of something and think it is foolish. For example, having been a religion major, I understand Buddhism but I still find it foolish. See the difference?

An unbeliever can understand words and sentence structure, if that's what you mean. He can read "John was baptizing in the Jordan" and understand that a man named John was baptizing people in the Jordan river. But he cannot understand the spiritual meaning.
I have tried to explain scripture in the simplest way I know how to unbelievers and they just don't get it. They can't understand the spiritual meanings because they do not have the Spirit of God dwelling in them. It's not just about the words. You must have God's Spirit to interpret spiritual things.


Jesus demonstrated this when He told parables and only some could understand them.

 

[Skandelon]

An unbeliever can understand words and sentence structure, if that's what you mean. He can read "John was baptizing in the Jordan" and understand that a man named John was baptizing people in the Jordan river. But he cannot understand the spiritual meaning.
I have tried to explain scripture in the simplest way I know how to unbelievers and they just don't get it. They can't understand the spiritual meanings because they do not have the Spirit of God dwelling in them. It's not just about the words. You must have God's Spirit to interpret spiritual things.


Jesus demonstrated this when He told parables and only some could understand them.

Are you saying they can't understand that Jesus loves us and died to atone for our sin? Are you saying they can't understand that John was baptizing men who believed in Christ and this was a symbol of death, burial and resurrection?

The bible is clear that there will be preachers and teachers of these truths who will not go to heaven. Are you sure they don't understand these truths, or is it that they have not received them? How do they preach that which they don't understand?

As I defined earlier, there is a difference in understanding and acceptance. To deny the ability of one to 'understand' that which HAS been made clear through inspiration (discernment) only gives them an excuse for not accepting it as true. See what I mean? Its sounds like we agree in principle but just have a different understanding of the word "understand."

 

[Skandelon]

Jesus demonstrated this when He told parables and only some could understand them.

He spoke to them in parables so they couldn't understand, then he took his preselected apostles to the side and expounded for them so that they would understand. He inspired the writing of it all in scripture so that everyone who reads it could understand.

Amy, please understand, that I'm not denying the need for spiritual discernment. I'm just acknowledging the discernment of the spirit in the inspiration of the text as being a sufficient revelation for all to read/hear it and respond to its truth.

 

[Van]

Reply

Agreed. I just reject the concept that someone must be saved (spiritually indwelled) before they can understand the truths revealed in scripture. Understanding is different from acceptance. Some think that if someone REALLY understands a truth that they MUST accept it, and that is simply untrue. The people in Romans 1 CLEARLY understood that which they rejected, which is the very reason they were 'without excuse.' Thus, any doctrine which attempts to teach that most of humanity can't really understand the clearly revealed truth of God is in error.

Yes, the spirit guides and comforts us into a deeper more full understanding that can only come through relationship, but still; those without the spirit have NO EXCUSES.

I agree, you nailed it!

 

[convicted1]

An unbeliever can understand words and sentence structure, if that's what you mean. He can read "John was baptizing in the Jordan" and understand that a man named John was baptizing people in the Jordan river. But he cannot understand the spiritual meaning.
I have tried to explain scripture in the simplest way I know how to unbelievers and they just don't get it. They can't understand the spiritual meanings because they do not have the Spirit of God dwelling in them. It's not just about the words. You must have God's Spirit to interpret spiritual things.


Jesus demonstrated this when He told parables and only some could understand them.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Winman]

He spoke to them in parables so they couldn't understand, then he took his preselected apostles to the side and expounded for them so that they would understand. He inspired the writing of it all in scripture so that everyone who reads it could understand.

Amy, please understand, that I'm not denying the need for spiritual discernment. I'm just acknowledging the discernment of the spirit in the inspiration of the text as being a sufficient revelation for all to read/hear it and respond to its truth.

Yes, the gospel is not some sort of hidden message as the parables were. Even the disciples could not understand the parables. But the difference is they believed Jesus was the Son of God and was telling some important truth. They wanted to know what the parables meant and asked Jesus to explain them. If a person truly wants to know and understand God's word, God will reveal it to them.

But the gospel is simple, who cannot understand verses like John 3:16? A person may be an unbeliever, but they can understand this verse is saying there is a God who loved sinful mankind and gave his Son Jesus to die for our sins, and that God raised him from the dead and that he ascended to heaven and will return someday. They can easily understand that, they simply refuse to believe it. I don't understand everything God does, I do not understand how he spoke the universe into existence, but I believe it. You do not have to perfectly understand everything in God's word to believe it, but if you do believe it and pursue it, God will reveal it to you. This is why Jesus said that whosoever hath, to him more will be given, but to those who have not, even what he seems to have shall be taken away.

So, 1 Cor 2:14 does not prove a natural person cannot believe spiritual things, it says they do not "receive" them because they seem as foolishness to them. The moment they believe, the Spirit will come into them, and God's word will be opened up to them.

In fact, we know natural men can understand and believe the gospel from Galatians 3:2 and Ephesians 1:13. Both verses teach that a man first believes, and afterwards receives the Holy Spirit.

 

[convicted1]

Yes, the gospel is not some sort of hidden message as the parables were. Even the disciples could not understand the parables. But the difference is they believed Jesus was the Son of God and was telling some important truth. They wanted to know what the parables meant and asked Jesus to explain them. If a person truly wants to know and understand God's word, God will reveal it to them.

But the gospel is simple, who cannot understand verses like John 3:16? A person may be an unbeliever, but they can understand this verse is saying there is a God who loved sinful mankind and gave his Son Jesus to die for our sins, and that God raised him from the dead and that he ascended to heaven and will return someday. They can easily understand that, they simply refuse to believe it. I don't understand everything God does, I do not understand how he spoke the universe into existence, but I believe it. You do not have to perfectly understand everything in God's word to believe it, but if you do believe it and persue it, God will reveal it to you. This is why Jesus said that whosoever hath, to him more will be given, but to those who have not, even what he seems to have shall be taken away.

So, 1 Cor 2:14 does not prove a natural person cannot believe spiritual things, it says they do not "receive" them because they seem as foolishness to them. The moment they believe, the Spirit will come into them, and God's word will be opened up to them.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: