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Do we all really believe in a 'limited atonement?'

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Earth Wind and Fire

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Monergism claims it is all God because he is the one who irresistibly draws one to faith and repentance and thus leaves nothing for which to credit to man. So, my question is about the non-elect. Do Calvinists believe the reprobates response is also monergistic given that the nature they received from God at birth likewise irresistibly draws them to rebellion? Or does God work synergistically with the non-elect? :confused:

Excuse me but were you not a Calvinist; isn't that one of your famous claims? So.....why don't you answer your own question? :rolleyes:
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
Excuse me but were you not a Calvinist; isn't that one of your famous claims? So.....why don't you answer your own question? :rolleyes:

Exactly.

We have yet another "gotcha" moment that isn't.

God chooses who will be saved. Sounds to me like it's not only monergistic, but Sovereignty in action. Some people have a serious problem with this. Jacobus Arminius was one of them. :thumbs:
 
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quantumfaith

Active Member
Excuse me but were you not a Calvinist; isn't that one of your famous claims? So.....why don't you answer your own question? :rolleyes:

Lest we forget EWF,Skan was a proponent of Calvinism for several years. My guess is he was a "good calvinist".
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Exactly.

We have yet another "gotcha" moment that isn't.

God chooses who will be saved. Sounds to me like it's not only monergistic, but Sovereignty in action. Some people have a serious problem with this. Jacobus Arminius was one of them. :thumbs:

another declaration of what simply is? Some people have a serious problem with what? "them" huh?
 

MB

Well-Known Member
Exactly.

We have yet another "gotcha" moment that isn't.

God chooses who will be saved. Sounds to me like it's not only monergistic, but Sovereignty in action. Some people have a serious problem with this. Jacobus Arminius was one of them. :thumbs:
And yet Jacob was able to convince more than half of the Calvinist in the theological school in Geneva. Amazing how the truth can convert Calvinist.
MB
 
Well, God choosing to use a preacher to preach His everlasting Gospel to the lost, seems synergistic to me. God saving someone w/o a preacher, but revealing Himself to that lost individual(a la PB's), is monergistic, or so it would seem to me.


God chose the foolishness of preaching to save them which believe. God is using a "middleman"/preacher, to reach the lost. God using man to reveal Himself to the lost........sure looks like God's using man to serve His purpose. Isn't that the ideal definition of synergism?


The PB's are the only ones who truly advocate monergism.
 
Brother winman, I am not entirely set on this as of yet. This is something that I have just thought about, and I tend to lean this way. But I need to study this out more. I may, or may not, see it this way after more intensive study.


I tend to agree with you and Willis, what brought about death was being cast out of the garden and being separated from the tree of life. All mankind was barred from the tree of life as well as a consequence of Adam's sin.

We see that in the New Jerusalem that the tree of life will be restored.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

It seems to me that this suggests we will always be dependent upon the tree of life. It even speaks of "healing" that suggests bacteria causing illness or even injury might still occur.

But I do believe there was a corruption introduced by the curse, the scriptures say thorns and thistles would spring up.


Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

This seems to imply some sort of hardship was introduced. It seems to imply that beforehand crops had simply sprung with up little or no effort, now thorns and thistles are introduced and man would have to labor much more to grow food.

Perhaps man himself was also corrupted in intellect and judgment, though this is not said. Or perhaps the thorns and thistles represent the environment we would live in, corrupted by sin and causing us hardship and harm. Our way would be made more difficult.

This is speculation, but one thing is certain, there is not one word that says man's moral nature was corrupted and that man would henceforth be unable to respond to God. It does not say man would henceforth be born dead in sin, or that Adam's sin would be imputed to his descendants. It is amazing that this was not mentioned if it indeed took place.

But man was removed from the tree of life and therefore all men die physically. This is actually a good thing, and I think it is notable God said he cursed the ground "for thy sake". It would actually be a terrible thing if man lived forever sinning, becoming more and more corrupt. All men know they will die, and this truly is an incentive to repent and trust Christ for salvation.
 

preacher4truth

Active Member
Well, God choosing to use a preacher to preach His everlasting Gospel to the lost, seems synergistic to me. God saving someone w/o a preacher, but revealing Himself to that lost individual(a la PB's), is monergistic, or so it would seem to me.


God chose the foolishness of preaching to save them which believe. God is using a "middleman"/preacher, to reach the lost. God using man to reveal Himself to the lost........sure looks like God's using man to serve His purpose. Isn't that the ideal definition of synergism?


The PB's are the only ones who truly advocate monergism.

I'd have to disagree with you about the PB's, it's just simply not true brother. :love2:

Don't we just choose by freewill to preach/pastor, or, do we allow God to do that part Sovereignly, while we choose (we think amiss that we've chosen) the biggest thing ever; to be saved, but we leave other details up to Him to choose? It looks to me that Paul thought both salvation and calling to ministry were all the Sovereign choice of God, not of mans 'freewill' choosing. Scripturally He chose both; those who would be saved before the foundation of this world, and those whom He calls to minister, (although we should all have our place within the body) and it is He who decided the gifts, didn't He? Paul relates this to the church in his Epistles, and specifically of himself, Galatians 1:15, and also what he 'must' do for God, Acts 9. People think it's that they chose, but it's God that did the choosing.
 
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I'd have to disagree with you about the PB's, it's just simply not true brother. :love2:

Don't we just choose by freewill to preach/pastor, or, do we allow God to do that part Sovereignly, but we choose the biggest thing ever, to be saved, then we leave other details up to Him to choose? It looks to me that Paul thought both salvation and calling to ministry were all the Sovereign choice of God, not of mans 'freewill' choosing.

What I was trying to convey Brother, is God has chosen man to accomplish what He wants done. Look @ Moses for instance. God could have easily picked up the entire Jewish populace and placed them in the Promised Land all by Himself. However, He chose to use Moses to accomplish this for Him. Same way with preacher/preaching. If God wanted to, He could save a man w/o the Gospel. However, He chose the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe. Sounds like synergism to me.
 

kyredneck

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Well, God choosing to use a preacher to preach His everlasting Gospel to the lost, seems synergistic to me. God saving someone w/o a preacher, but revealing Himself to that lost individual(a la PB's), is monergistic, or so it would seem to me.

It's that word 'save' Willis. Most, Cal & non Cal use the word indisriminately to always infer the eternal, and yet they can't prove it to be so from scripture.

Do you actually believe preachers are populating heaven?

The PB's say NO! A thousand times NO!

God chose the foolishness of preaching to save them which believe. God is using a "middleman"/preacher, to reach the lost. God using man to reveal Himself to the lost........sure looks like God's using man to serve His purpose. Isn't that the ideal definition of synergism?

Again, it's that word save [sozo]. Also that word lost. Cal & non Cal apply the eternal to both indiscriminately, and yet can't justify doing so from scripture.

Considering the passage below, how do you justify the notion that the preacher is participating in the regeneration of others:

For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, 1 Tim 2:5

The PB's are the only ones who truly advocate monergism.

The PB's are some of the last remaining that hold to immediate regeneration.
 
It's that word 'save' Willis. Most, Cal & non Cal use the word indisriminately to always infer the eternal, and yet they can't prove it to be so from scripture.

Do you actually believe preachers are populating heaven?

The PB's say NO! A thousand times NO!



Again, it's that word save [sozo]. Also that word lost. Cal & non Cal apply the eternal to both indiscriminately, and yet can't justify doing so from scripture.

Considering the passage below, how do you justify the notion that the preacher is participating in the regeneration of others:

For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, 1 Tim 2:5



The PB's are some of the last remaining that hold to immediate regeneration.


So, what would be the more appropriate terms for "save" and "lost"?
 

Winman

Active Member
What I was trying to convey Brother, is God has chosen man to accomplish what He wants done. Look @ Moses for instance. God could have easily picked up the entire Jewish populace and placed them in the Promised Land all by Himself. However, He chose to use Moses to accomplish this for Him. Same way with preacher/preaching. If God wanted to, He could save a man w/o the Gospel. However, He chose the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe. Sounds like synergism to me.

Yes, and consider Jonah, he refused to obey God and ran away. Couldn't God simply appear to the people of Ninevah the way he appeared to Moses in a burning bush, or appear in the sky as he did with Paul? But no, God sent a great storm out on the sea, knowing the sailors would throw Jonah overboard, then God sent a whale to swallow Jonah to make sure he got the message God meant business. Jonah did, and went and preached as he was told.

So, this "monergism" business is all wet. God has chosen to use men to send the gospel out whether we understand why or not. And God has chosen to give men the choice whether to accept the atonement or not.
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
What I was trying to convey Brother, is God has chosen man to accomplish what He wants done. Look @ Moses for instance. God could have easily picked up the entire Jewish populace and placed them in the Promised Land all by Himself. However, He chose to use Moses to accomplish this for Him. Same way with preacher/preaching. If God wanted to, He could save a man w/o the Gospel. However, He chose the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe. Sounds like synergism to me.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

Unquestionably God has sovereignly chosen many individuals for specific tasks and roles and no one questions such actions because He is fact God. But the examples of such individuals found on the pages of scripture does not necessarily imply that this is the norm.
 

agedman

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So, this "monergism" business is all wet. God has chosen to use men to send the gospel out whether we understand why or not. And God has chosen to give men the choice whether to accept the atonement or not.

God using the method "to send the gospel out" does not mean that God "has chosen to give men the choice."

These are two separate issues in Scripture.

One is a charge given to all believers.

The other (if Arminian in thinking) is falsely based upon some man made ability to reach up and get God's attention. And, such ability would imply that man can also reject the attention of God at any time. For example: John Hagee uses Hebrew 6:4 as proof that one may reject salvation once attained.

The extrapolation of the synergistic thinking would support the views that the fall of man is limited to certain areas of life and nature, and that there is some good found in every unregenerate. Therefore, synergistic salvation can also be attained by good intentions, keeping the law, and ultimately rejecting a literal hell and everlasting punishment because it was only intended for the devil and demonic.
 

agedman

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I am "with you" that the fall indeed was a major game changer for mankind and our relationship with God. Do you see anything in the narrative of the fall and curse that indicates that mankind lost this ability?

Here are some reasons why a loss of this ability is indicated.

Immediately when Adam partook of the food, they were ashamed. When God sought them (though being God he knew where they were) the couple hid themselves. They didn't approach God. He sought them.

Remember pre-fall, Adam and God walked together each evening. It was the customary thing that they did. For Adam to hide from God, demonstrates no desire to seek God.

Secondly, the actual conversation between the characters.

Adam and the woman were face to face with God. Unlike any born of the flesh, there was a history of a daily friendly and intimate relationship from which they could all draw. But what is the reaction?
Shame, blame, excuse... Not once was there ever even a hint of reconciliation, apology, acknowledgement of sin in worship from humankind.

If ever there was a chance for repentance it was at that time. So, it is not only a question of ability, but of desire. And both are part of the fall. There is no ability and no desire of the natural man to seek or accept God.



Corrupted, warped, yes, but I personally still mankind still minimally"functional" in that man still seeks to worship "something" a constant stream in almost all cultures, tribes and peoples. We, I believe are lost, without God's grace, to our own devices, created god's and fruitless searches for meaning and purpose.

Because all human kind has been imprinted with the basic commandments of God which include the first four, there is also an awareness of a need to worship. However, look at the second to see the level of deceit and corruption that "all cultures, tribes, and peoples" use to exclude the one true God. This is also represented by Cain and Able.

Now as to you last thoughts, about decay etc. I realize I am in the vast minority around BB land on this, in that I think death and decay, are part of the natural created order and existed prior to the fall, this created order is by design naturally entropic. I do not believe that the fall brought this particular poison to creation. I see in the creation accounts hints that humanity was not created to live indefinitely in the first place, as indicated by the Tree of Life, and Adam's banning from it after the fall. I think the far more important message of death in the narrative of the fall is the chasm and separation from fellowship with God.

The basic problem with "death and decay" before the fall is that such is a violation of the nature of God.

Some point to the "tree of life" as showing there must have been death and decay in Eden, and that it is also found in the New Heaven as well.

However, careful study of the use of the phrase "tree of life" would show much clearer evidence of what this tree actually represents. For instance: Proverbs uses the phrase "tree of life" four times. Each time, it is a representation of a characteristic in which a believer may have. Certainly, one who possesses life of and in Christ lives with no decay and death, yet the tree is in the New Heaven? Look at the size and position of the tree?

Compare that to the statements that the Lord gave of himself.

Do not think that the tree of life was simply a tree that one would live forever. Just as the tree of the knowledge of good and evil brought far greater results than just knowing what was good and evil, the tree of life has much more emphasis than merely giving everlasting life which is found in Christ.
 

kyredneck

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Nothing wrong with the terms; it's wrong to apply eternity willy nilly to the words.

Once again Amy, 1 Cor 5:5.

What did he lose, and what did he retain? (Incidentally, this is one the few times in the scriptures that saved [sozo] is clearly used in the eternal sense.

Can you not see the eternal and temporal aspects of the one salvation in that verse?

What did the man in 1 Cor 5:5 lose, and what did he retain?

1 Tim 4:16. Was Timothy not yet in possession of eternal life? Was he still not yet born again? Or the members of the church he taught?

It is a mistake to apply eternity [the acquisition of eternal life] willy nilly to the word saved.
 
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agedman

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Once again Amy, 1 Cor 5:5.

What did he lose, and what did he retain? (Incidentally, this is one the few times in the scriptures that saved [sozo] is clearly used in the eternal sense.

Can you not see the eternal and temporal aspects of the one salvation in that verse?

What did the man in 1 Cor 5:5 lose, and what did he retain?

1 Tim 4:16. Was Timothy not yet in possession of eternal life? Was he still not yet born again? Or the members of the church he taught?

It is a mistake to apply eternity [the acquisition of eternal life] willy nilly to the word saved.


I am not following what you are desiring for us to understand.

One saved has eternal life of glory. One not saved has eternal life of hell.

All humankind have eternal life.

Saved indicates one saved from the eternal life of hell.

Was there something other you are attempting to get us to understand?
 

kyredneck

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Cause and effect.

The majority, Cal & non-Cal, hold to gospel means regeneration. One's faith/obedience to the gospel is the cause of eternal life (born again) and good works [effect].
[Faith = born again and good works]


PBs hold that the birth from above is the cause of faith/obedience to the gospel and good works [effect].
[Born again = faith and good works]
 
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