Do we all really believe in a 'limited atonement?'

[webdog]

So the humble deserve salvation? Is that what you are saying?

Didn't see "deserve" anywhere in his reply.

 

[quantumfaith]

So the humble deserve salvation? Is that what you are saying?

Jbh,

I am reminded of the following:

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

What I notice is that this was not the man that claimed adherence to DoG or Arminianism, but rather recognized his own very real need for God's mercy and consequently "humbled" himself before his creator.

Justified!!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Jbh,

I am reminded of the following:

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

What I notice is that this was not the man that claimed adherence to DoG or Arminianism, but rather recognized his own very real need for God's mercy and consequently "humbled" himself before his creator.

Justified!!

So are you saying that Grace played no part in this mans salvation?

 

[quantumfaith]

So are you saying that Grace played no part in this mans salvation?

EWF, did I say that? I am pretty sure you have seen me mention before that I believe in prevenient grace. Furthermore, what does this scripture say?

 

[Forest]

Forest,

Why then, tell me please, was the last commandment of the Lord Jesus Christ to "Preach the Gospel to every living creature?

False doctrines are all over the place, they are, thank God, fairly easy to discern by a disciple standing within the Light where it is easier to see.

I would certainly call into question any doctrine that subverts the Lords commandment.

I have encountered more than one false doctrine that tries to decieve believers into thinking the command to Preach the Gospel, often called the "Great Commison", does not apply to us by claiming that the four Gospel Accounts do not apply to us.

Ususally this sort of false doctrine is espoused today by Hyper Dispensationalists, but it is a very old Lie, that goes back to the Gnostics, such as Marcion, during the first and second century of the church.

Such is of evil orgins, and I am, by no means, suggesting you follow anything like what I describe above, indeed I doubt you would have any interst in being on a Baptist forum if you did.

I am just quite unsure how you could come to the conclusion you seem to have about preaching the Gospel.

I realise that some Calinistic positions may make it difficult to understand a need to preach to the lost, but I think that even John Calvin would disagree with such an extreme position, as to suggest we are to ignore the command of the Lord.

Paul says that the gospel has been preached to every creature which is under heaven, Col 1:23. Paul Did not want to preach to those who did not have faith, 2 Thes 3:1-2. The inspired scriptures are written to God's elect instructing them as how to live their lives while they sojourn here in this world. There are scriptures that tell us how we were eternally saved by Christ on the cross, but there are no scriptures telling us how to get eternally saved.

 

[Forest]

ACF, I cannot say for sure, but Forrest seems to be a Primitive Baptist from the things he is posting here. Some would call them Hyper-calvinists. They hold that the gospel is for the enlightening of the elect, and that there are actually 2 different salvations spoken of in scriptures. The Gospel gives a temporal, earthly salvation from false belief...but eternal salvation is attained soley by the electing and regeneration of the person, even someone who never heard or believed the gospel in their life. Primitive Baptists generally do not believe we should share the gospel with non-believers. The person who is saved eternally is ENTIRELY passive.

Both Spurgeoun in England, and Andrew Fuller/William Carey in America were at odds with hyper-calvinists on this issue, and Fuller and Carey, both calvinists, were primary leaders in early Baptist Missionary work.

I personally do not see in scriptures where Primitive Baptists get their belief in two different salvations, one temporal and one eternal. I assume it is driven by a logical inference of the doctrine of unconditional election. I also do not know if Primitive Baptists would describe themselves as being "hyper-calvinists". I think that is a derogatory term given by their opponents.

(If I have mis-represented the position of Primitive Baptists here, it was not intentional, and I hope Forrest or KYRedneck will correct me.)

Salvation means "a deliverance". When we are delivered from this present evil world, that would be eternal salvation. When we give up on our righteous works saving us eternally and come to an understanding of the truth we receive a deliverance (salvation) from believing a false doctrine, that is a timely salvation, such as in Rom 10.

 

[Forest]

Atonement is provided for EVERYONE, but only those who respond to God's call will be saved. It is NOT God's will for any to perish, but not everyone will humble themselves to the point of recognizing or admitting that "I am a sinner and need to be saved." Only those who do will receive atonement.

Atonment is only for those that God gave to his Son, John 6:37-41. The natural man , void of the Spirit, will not, and indeed, cannot respond to God's call because without the indwelling Spirit the natural man cannot descern spiritual things, 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF, did I say that? I am pretty sure you have seen me mention before that I believe in prevenient grace. Furthermore, what does this scripture say?

Oh, I forgot......Out of curiosity, do they teach this "Prevenient Grace" in your SBC Church & could you show me clear Biblical support for it?

 

[preacher4truth]

Paul says that the gospel has been preached to every creature which is under heaven, Col 1:23. Paul Did not want to preach to those who did not have faith, 2 Thes 3:1-2. The inspired scriptures are written to God's elect instructing them as how to live their lives while they sojourn here in this world. There are scriptures that tell us how we were eternally saved by Christ on the cross, but there are no scriptures telling us how to get eternally saved.

The highlighted is false teaching 100%.

 

[quantumfaith]

Oh, I forgot......Out of curiosity, do they teach this "Prevenient Grace" in your SBC Church & could you show me clear Biblical support for it?

Here is the most compelling to me, others I am sure.

New International Version (©1984)
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

New Living Translation (©2007)
For the grace of God has been revealed, bringing salvation to all people.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

International Standard Version (©2008)
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
For the all saving grace of God has been revealed to all men;

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
After all, God's saving kindness has appeared for the benefit of all people.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

American King James Version
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,

American Standard Version
For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Douay-Rheims Bible
For the grace of God our Savior hath appeared to all men;

Darby Bible Translation
For the grace of God which carries with it salvation for all men has appeared,

English Revised Version
For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Webster's Bible Translation
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Weymouth New Testament
For the grace of God has displayed itself with healing power to all mankind,

World English Bible
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

Young's Literal Translation
For the saving grace of God was manifested to all men


If you would really be interested in what my church teaches about grace, here is a link to a wonderful short, but powerful book.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005M47ZOS/?tag=baptis04-20

 

[Forest]

John Hendryx, a Calvinist, made this argument:



The problem with this argument is that it appears to presume that atonement is equal to salvation. It ignores the fact that the demands of justice for one's sin may be fully satisfied without their being saved.

The conditions for being saved are:

(1) satisfaction of divine justice for your sin (atonement)
and
(2) authentic faith in Christ as Lord and Savior.

The error John makes is to assume that if the first condition has been met then a person will necessarily be saved. This ignores the demand of God for the second condition to likewise be met. Thus, it is possible for someone to have the first condition met without ever meeting the second condition and therefore not be saved.

Therefore, affirming unlimited atonement doesn't imply universalism.

I just opened my thread "WHAT ACTUALLY DID CHRIST ACCOMPLISH ON THE CROSS' and noticed that the thread is closed. Am I mistaken or is this true, and if so, WHY?

 

[Forest]

John Hendryx, a Calvinist, made this argument:



The problem with this argument is that it appears to presume that atonement is equal to salvation. It ignores the fact that the demands of justice for one's sin may be fully satisfied without their being saved.

The conditions for being saved are:

(1) satisfaction of divine justice for your sin (atonement)
and
(2) authentic faith in Christ as Lord and Savior.

The error John makes is to assume that if the first condition has been met then a person will necessarily be saved. This ignores the demand of God for the second condition to likewise be met. Thus, it is possible for someone to have the first condition met without ever meeting the second condition and therefore not be saved.

Therefore, affirming unlimited atonement doesn't imply universalism.

Can you give me an explianation as to why you sre closing my threats?

 

[Skandelon]

I only know of one of your threads that was closed and it reached 20 pages. Admins tell us to close them when they get to 10 pages but I've been fighting to keep the open longer, but I can't stretch them too far...

You are always welcome to start a new thread once one is closed.

 

[Forest]

The highlighted is false teaching 100%.

Then give me the scriptures.

 

[Forest]

John Hendryx, a Calvinist, made this argument:



The problem with this argument is that it appears to presume that atonement is equal to salvation. It ignores the fact that the demands of justice for one's sin may be fully satisfied without their being saved.

The conditions for being saved are:

(1) satisfaction of divine justice for your sin (atonement)
and
(2) authentic faith in Christ as Lord and Savior.

The error John makes is to assume that if the first condition has been met then a person will necessarily be saved. This ignores the demand of God for the second condition to likewise be met. Thus, it is possible for someone to have the first condition met without ever meeting the second condition and therefore not be saved.

Therefore, affirming unlimited atonement doesn't imply universalism.

Your thread has 16 pages, are you fighting to keep it open?

 

[webdog]

Your thread has 16 pages, are you fighting to keep it open?

He's got 4 more to go...your point?

 

[Amy.G]

Your thread has 16 pages, are you fighting to keep it open?

Even though your thread was closed, you can start another on the same subject and just continue it. It's done all the time.

 

[kyredneck]

Your thread has 16 pages, are you fighting to keep it open?

Forest, he's the closer.....

 

[Skandelon]

Geesh!!!!!!!!! Now we are even. :laugh: