Do we have any Evangelical Arminians Here on site now then?

[JesusFan]

Freed by Grace (to Believe)
Atonement for All
Conditional Election
Total Depravity
Security in Christ

Would be your version of Tulip

 

[jakethebaptist]

I personally reject the dichotomy between Reformed/Calvinism and Arminianism. God's salvation of our souls is too wonderful, too great, and too much a work that only God can do to dissect into such detailed human systems.

 

[Silverhair]

Freed by Grace (to Believe)
Atonement for All
Conditional Election
Total Depravity
Security in Christ

Would be your version of Tulip

I can agree with all those as they are what I see in scripture.

 

[Ben1445]

I personally reject the dichotomy between Reformed/Calvinism and Arminianism. God's salvation of our souls is too wonderful, too great, and too much a work that only God can do to dissect into such detailed human systems.

Obviously this could never be an acceptable answer. You either like McDonalds or Burger King. Outside of these options, there can be no such thing as a burger.
Yes, that was sarcasm. I agree that neither of these descriptions of salvation measures up to the truth.

 

[JD731]

There is no such thing, IMO, as a Baptist Arminian and there is no such thing as a Baptist Calvinist. In reality one is either a Baptist or an Arminian or a Calvinist. These are totally different belief systems and they all define the person of God and his work of salvation in completely different ways. When a Baptist begins to adopt any of the tenets of Calvinism or Arminianism they are like leaven, eventually corrupting the whole. Church history has proven it and God predicted it in his pastoral epistles. (a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump)

Lk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

Almost every passage in the Bible refutes Calvinism and Arminianism.

 

[Paleouss]

Freed by Grace (to Believe)
Atonement for All
Conditional Election
Total Depravity
Security in Christ

Would be your version of Tulip

Greetings to you Jesus Fan. Grace and hope to you in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I think I could just as easily put this post in the other Reformed thread but I chose to put it in the Evangelical thread. As many know, I think both have their truths but then wander into error when closing themselves off to some truths of the other side.

I think the Holy Scripture tells us that God “desires all men to be saved” (1Tit 2:4) and that is why Jesus came to be “the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe” (1Tim 4:10). He did this by being the “Light which gives light to every man” (John 1:9) by being the “light of the world” (John 8:12).

Thus I am a proponent of an Un/Limited view of Atonement. Regarding Christ's Cosmic Triumph on the cross, the Son of God became the Savior of all men by defeating death, the Devil, and Hades. The powers that held mankind within the Kingdom of Darkness. This Triumph over this Kingdom was/is to the benefit of all men, thus fulfilling the Holy Scripture that says the Son of God is "the Savior to all men" (1Tim 4:10). God did all the work.

But I also think the Holy Scriptures speaks of another accomplishment, that being what the Son of God will deliver His elect from (those that will believe), i.e., "we have been delivered from the law" (Rom 7:6). The Son of God did not come to deliver all men from the law but only the elect (those that would believe). Thus, God came to be a Savior to only some men from the law. God did all the work.

Like TULIP, I don't fully agree with FACTS. Since I'm clearly a fence rider.

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)

 

[Silverhair]

Greetings to you Jesus Fan. Grace and hope to you in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I think I could just as easily put this post in the other Reformed thread but I chose to put it in the Evangelical thread. As many know, I think both have their truths but then wander into error when closing themselves off to some truths of the other side.

I think the Holy Scripture tells us that God “desires all men to be saved” (1Tit 2:4) and that is why Jesus came to be “the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe” (1Tim 4:10). He did this by being the “Light which gives light to every man” (John 1:9) by being the “light of the world” (John 8:12).

Thus I am a proponent of an Un/Limited view of Atonement. Regarding Christ's Cosmic Triumph on the cross, the Son of God became the Savior of all men by defeating death, the Devil, and Hades. The powers that held mankind within the Kingdom of Darkness. This Triumph over this Kingdom was/is to the benefit of all men, thus fulfilling the Holy Scripture that says the Son of God is "the Savior to all men" (1Tim 4:10). God did all the work.

But I also think the Holy Scriptures speaks of another accomplishment, that being what the Son of God will deliver His elect from (those that will believe), i.e., "we have been delivered from the law" (Rom 7:6). The Son of God did not come to deliver all men from the law but only the elect (those that would believe). Thus, God came to be a Savior to only some men from the law. God did all the work.

Like TULIP, I don't fully agree with FACTS. Since I'm clearly a fence rider.

Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)

Reading through your post I see a bit of confusion there.

On one hand you say
"that is why Jesus came to be “the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe” (1Tim 4:10). He did this by being the “Light which gives light to every man” (John 1:9)"

Then later you say
"The Son of God did not come to deliver all men from the law but only the elect (those that would believe). Thus, God came to be a Savior to only some men from the law."

The bible is clear that Christ came so that all men could be delivered from the law. Why are not all men delivered from the law? Well we see two clear lines to follow.
According to one view it is because God only picked out a select group and the rest were condemned. According to the bible it is because all were given the ability to know God and trust in Him, those that trusted in Him were saved those that rejected Him were lost.

Another point if I may, the elect are not those that [would] believe but rather those that [have] believed. No one is elect until they are saved through faith, prior to that we are all just lost sinners.

 

[Tea]

Greetings, @Paleouss, I appreciate your valuable insight, and it does give me something to think about.

He did this by being the “Light which gives light to every man” (John 1:9) by being the “light of the world” (John 8:12).

Every person receives light, yet not everyone will respond to that light in a positive manner. The very light that is rejected will serve as the foundation for their judgment.

Acts 17:30 - 31 (ESV)
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

Regarding Christ's Cosmic Triumph on the cross, the Son of God became the Savior of all men by defeating death, the Devil, and Hades. The powers that held mankind within the Kingdom of Darkness. This Triumph over this Kingdom was/is to the benefit of all men, thus fulfilling the Holy Scripture that says the Son of God is "the Savior to all men" (1Tim 4:10). God did all the work.

Jesus is the sole savior accessible to humanity—there is no alternative savior to be found. Therefore, it is reasonable to assert that His designation as "Savior" is fitting, despite the fact that not every individual will attain salvation.

The Son of God did not come to deliver all men from the law but only the elect (those that would believe). Thus, God came to be a Savior to only some men from the law. God did all the work.

Election is fundamentally significant and really at the heart of the matter. I have consistently struggled to accept that election relies on foresight, implying that He selects those whom He perceives will choose to accept Him. I generally align with those who assert that the scope of the atonement has a particular target.

Like TULIP, I don't fully agree with FACTS. Since I'm clearly a fence rider.

We're all a work in progress, brother. I'm continuing to learn new things every day.

 

[Silverhair]

Greetings, @Paleouss, I appreciate your valuable insight, and it does give me something to think about.



Every person receives light, yet not everyone will respond to that light in a positive manner. The very light that is rejected will serve as the foundation for their judgment.

Acts 17:30 - 31 (ESV)
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”




Jesus is the sole savior accessible to humanity—there is no alternative savior to be found. Therefore, it is reasonable to assert that His designation as "Savior" is fitting, despite the fact that not every individual will attain salvation.



Election is fundamentally significant and really at the heart of the matter. I have consistently struggled to accept that election relies on foresight, implying that He selects those whom He perceives will choose to accept Him. I generally align with those who assert that the scope of the atonement has a particular target.



We're all a work in progress, brother. I'm continuing to learn new things every day.

Election does not depend on foresight it depends on faith.

God being Omniscient foreknows all that will happen but He does not cause it to happen. Man freely chooses to sin just as he freely chooses to trust.

 

[Tea]

Election does not depend on foresight it depends on faith.

I would agree that election in and of itself does not save. However, election does ensure that one will indeed come to faith at the appointed time.

God being Omniscient foreknows all that will happen but He does not cause it to happen.

I accept the 1689 LBCF as doctrinally accurate, which would seem to be the opposite of what you're saying.

Chapter 3, Paragraph 1
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.

Man freely chooses to sin just as he freely chooses to trust.

If you mean that man is morally neutral, I haven't found any clear verses that suggest that to be true. What I have found are many clear verses that indicate how deep mankind is in bondage to sin. Just to mention a few...

Psalm 58:3 (ESV)
The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies.

John 8:34 (ESV)
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin.

Romans 8:7 (ESV)
For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.

 

[Silverhair]

I would agree that election in and of itself does not save. However, election does ensure that one will indeed come to faith at the appointed time

But we are only one of the elect when we are in the "elect One" and that only happens through faith which logically can only happen after we are alive.

The idea of elect from before the foundation of the world is just something read into the text.

I accept the 1689 LBCF as doctrinally accurate, which would seem to be the opposite of what you're saying.

Chapter 3, Paragraph 1
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.

Have you actually thought threw the LBCF text that you quoted?

Do you not see the glaring contradiction in that text?

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass.

If you agree with these words then you cannot accept the following words as being true.

"yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away"

If that version of God has decreed all things than does that not mean all things or are you saying there is another meaning to the words ALL THINGS in this case?

If God has decreed all things then He is responsible for all things that happen, both the good and the bad.

If you mean that man is morally neutral, I haven't found any clear verses that suggest that to be true. What I have found are many clear verses that indicate how deep mankind is in bondage to sin. Just to mention a few...

These would indicate that man can make real choices, or to use your words he is morally neutral.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight. NASB

Isa 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. NASB

Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NASB

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; NASB

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, NASB

And to show that man also can choose to reject the light

Act 7:51 "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. NASB

We are held responsible for the choices that we freely make, if we do not have that freedom then all our choices have been determined by God thus no responsibility falls to the man.

 

[Tea]

But we are only one of the elect when we are in the "elect One" and that only happens through faith which logically can only happen after we are alive.

The idea of elect from before the foundation of the world is just something read into the text.

But that is exactly what the text says.

Ephesians 1:4-6 (ESV)
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

You are correct that we weren't alive when God decided to predestine us in Christ, but nowhere here or anywhere else does it say that He makes His decisions based on looking at what decisions we make in the future. Because He did predestine us to be elect, or in the "elect One," it was always a certainty that we would have faith.

Have you actually thought threw the LBCF text that you quoted?

Do you not see the glaring contradiction in that text?

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass.

If you agree with these words then you cannot accept the following words as being true.

"yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away"

If that version of God has decreed all things than does that not mean all things or are you saying there is another meaning to the words ALL THINGS in this case?

If God has decreed all things then He is responsible for all things that happen, both the good and the bad.

Regarding the problem of evil, God created Adam good and upright, and he could have chosen not to sin in his unfallen state. God did not violate Adam's free will and force him to take the fruit from Eve. The serpent deceived Eve, and then she deceived Adam. It was 100% his choice. I don't see a contradiction.

These would indicate that man can make real choices, or to use your words he is morally neutral.

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight. NASB

Isa 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. NASB

Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NASB

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; NASB

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, NASB

And to show that man also can choose to reject the light

Act 7:51 "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did. NASB

We are held responsible for the choices that we freely make, if we do not have that freedom then all our choices have been determined by God thus no responsibility falls to the man.

What I see are commands to obey God and do the right thing. That doesn't mean that every human being is morally neutral. God is not unjust for commanding people to do something that they have no desire to do in the first place, and yes, God does hold man accountable for acting on the desires of his heart.

 

[Silverhair]

But that is exactly what the text says.

Ephesians 1:4-6 (ESV)
Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

You are correct that we weren't alive when God decided to predestine us in Christ, but nowhere here or anywhere else does it say that He makes His decisions based on looking at what decisions we make in the future. Because He did predestine us to be elect, or in the "elect One," it was always a certainty that we would have faith.

Note the words here, "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ" God made the decision before creation that salvation would be through faith in Him.

God has predestined for those who have trusted in Him to become like Jesus to become holy and blameless and so He chooses those who are in Christ he predestines those who are in Christ to become like Jesus but it's your responsibility to put your faith in Christ He doesn't predetermine who will and won't put their faith in Christ He predetermines what will happen to those who do put their faith in Christ just like He predetermines what will happen to those who refuse to put their faith in Christ they will be condemned.

Regarding the problem of evil, God created Adam good and upright, and he could have chosen not to sin in his unfallen state. God did not violate Adam's free will and force him to take the fruit from Eve. The serpent deceived Eve, and then she deceived Adam. It was 100% his choice. I don't see a contradiction.

But that is not what your LBCF sates does it. Do you not understand those words?
"God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;"
Then they try to get their way out of making God the author of all sin and evil by denying what they just wrote,
"yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree."

These were not choices that He made as an afterthought, He determined all things prior to creation. So which part of that document are we to say is true? Both cannot be true as they contradict each other.

Even the second causes that you they say the liberty of which was not taken away cannot be true if section one is true since according to it God even determined the secondary causes.

What I see are commands to obey God and do the right thing. That doesn't mean that every human being is morally neutral. God is not unjust for commanding people to do something that they have no desire to do in the first place, and yes, God does hold man accountable for acting on the desires of his heart.

There are only two ways that a man could follow or reject a command, 1] God has determined that He do so or 2] the man has the free will with which to do so.

What commands do you see here?

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight. NASB

Isa 45:22 "Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. NASB

Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NASB

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; NASB

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, NASB

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Man is being told what he should do but it is still up to him as to what he will do, that is unless you think God has determined freely and unchangeably all things so that most of mankind rejects Him. Which brings into question His desire that all come to know Him and be saved.

The calvinistic view makes God seem rather conflicted within the Godhead.

 

[Tea]

God has predestined for those who have trusted in Him to become like Jesus to become holy and blameless and so He chooses those who are in Christ he predestines those who are in Christ to become like Jesus but it's your responsibility to put your faith in Christ He doesn't predetermine who will and won't put their faith in Christ He predetermines what will happen to those who do put their faith in Christ just like He predetermines what will happen to those who refuse to put their faith in Christ they will be condemned.

The object of the choosing is "US." He chooses US to be in Christ, not that He chooses Christ as a predestined plan of salvation and God leaves it up to us to decide if we want to join or not.

These were not choices that He made as an afterthought, He determined all things prior to creation. So which part of that document are we to say is true? Both cannot be true as they contradict each other.

There is no contradiction if you understand that the document doesn't need to reconcile those two truths because scripture doesn't specifically answer those questions either. Scripture tells us that Adam was created good and was deceived by Eve after being deceived by the serpent. Scripture tells us that God is not the author of evil. God did not coerce Adam into doing something that was against his will.

You either have the view that God foreknew all the evil that would ever exist in the world and didn't have a reason for allowing it to be—He's just dealing with the cards He's been dealt. Or you can have the view that God foreknew all the evil that would ever exist, and He set it up that way for a far greater purpose than you and I could ever know in this life.

Man is being told what he should do but it is still up to him as to what he will do, that is unless you think God has determined freely and unchangeably all things so that most of mankind rejects Him.

John 5:14 (ESV)
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.”

I can't stop myself from sinning on a daily basis while I'm still in the flesh, can you? Is God unjust for commanding something that we aren't able to do?

 

[Silverhair]

The object of the choosing is "US." He chooses US to be in Christ, not that He chooses Christ as a predestined plan of salvation and God leaves it up to us to decide if we want to join or not.

Yes God has chosen us that believe in Him to be conformed to the of His son. He did not choose who would believe but what would be the result for those that do believe.

Context shows that Paul was writing to believers in Ephesus.

There is no contradiction if you understand that the document doesn't need to reconcile those two truths because scripture doesn't specifically answer those questions either. Scripture tells us that Adam was created good and was deceived by Eve after being deceived by the serpent. Scripture tells us that God is not the author of evil. God did not coerce Adam into doing something that was against his will.

You either have the view that God foreknew all the evil that would ever exist in the world and didn't have a reason for allowing it to be—He's just dealing with the cards He's been dealt. Or you can have the view that God foreknew all the evil that would ever exist, and He set it up that way for a far greater purpose than you and I could ever know in this life.

The bible does not say that "God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;"

That is something that calvinism has read into scripture. Then they attempt to give themselves cover but contradicting what they just said.

You can try to save yourself from those words but you will continue to fail as they do not leave you any wiggle room. Either God did decree all things or He did not. Calvinists say He did and that logically has to include all sin and evil. Even if you cannot see that.

Of course God foreknew all the good and the bad that would happen, He is omniscient after all. Do you think He is surprised by anything that happens?

God can and has used sin and evil for a far greater purpose than Satan thought possible, the salvation of mankind. God has used both good and bad to draw people to Himself.

John 5:14 (ESV)
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.”

I can't stop myself from sinning on a daily basis while I'm still in the flesh, can you? Is God unjust for commanding something that we aren't able to do?

Where have I said that man could stop sinning. That is just a strawman argument on your part.

Even those of us who are saved still sin or do you think you are sinless now that you are saved?

By the way Christ was referring to continuing in deliberate sin.

 

[Paleouss]

Reading through your post I see a bit of confusion there.

On one hand you say
"that is why Jesus came to be “the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe” (1Tim 4:10). He did this by being the “Light which gives light to every man” (John 1:9)"

Then later you say
"The Son of God did not come to deliver all men from the law but only the elect (those that would believe). Thus, God came to be a Savior to only some men from the law."

The bible is clear that Christ came so that all men could be delivered from the law. Why are not all men delivered from the law? Well we see two clear lines to follow.
According to one view it is because God only picked out a select group and the rest were condemned. According to the bible it is because all were given the ability to know God and trust in Him, those that trusted in Him were saved those that rejected Him were lost.

Another point if I may, the elect are not those that [would] believe but rather those that [have] believed. No one is elect until they are saved through faith, prior to that we are all just lost sinners.

Greetings Silverhair. Thank you for providing your wisdom to me that I might grow in Christ.

As you may or may not know from all my other posts this past year. I deny the strict dichotomy that one must be on the Providence side (Calvinism) or be on the Arminian side (faith as man's part). On some lines of thought, I am clearly in the Calvinist camp (or what they try and emphasize sometimes), on others, clearly in the Arminian camp (or what they emphasize sometimes).

For background so that you may understand my position (you may or may not agree but at least you will understand me more), the work of Jesus Christ on the cross was for multiple purposes. My view of this can be found, in part, here on the BaptistBoard, The Un/Limited View of the Atonement or Multiple Intentions View.

In short, very short, (A) Christ's Cosmic Triumph fulfilled the Scriptures that He is the Savior of all men (1Tim 4:10). This cosmic victory over sin, death, the Devil, and Hades was to the benefit of all men. He did this because he “desires all men to be saved” (1Tit 2:4). Here, I think the Arminian types are correct.

However, (B) Christ did not come to save every man from the law but only those that believe. The Scripture calls those that would believe, the elect. Christ came to only save the elect from the law. Christ did not come to save those that would not believe from the law. Here, I am more in line with a Calvinist type.

Now I do understand that the Calvinist want to deny (A) but are more than happy to accept (B). Additionally, I understand that the more Arminian types want to deny (B) but are more than happy to accept (A). But both are true, at least from what I read in the Bible.

I believe that God's total will and plan over creation can be done while at the same time man's will can be done (Gen 50:20, "you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good.") Seems like a contradiction that God can plan all our steps from atemporal eternity (Jer 1:5 NKJV, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.")... and yet our temporal will be done...but the scripture says He does and we do (Prov 16:9 "A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.").

So I deny neither.

Peace to you my brother in Christ.

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings, @Paleouss,

Greetings to you Tea. Grace and Hope to you in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Every person receives light, yet not everyone will respond to that light in a positive manner. The very light that is rejected will serve as the foundation for their judgment.

Acts 17:30 - 31 (ESV)
The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

I agree, every person receives some light. I think this can be seen in the parable of the sower (to name one).

Jesus is the sole savior accessible to humanity—there is no alternative savior to be found. Therefore, it is reasonable to assert that His designation as "Savior" is fitting, despite the fact that not every individual will attain salvation.

I agree. I would also refer you to what I wrote for Silverhair in post #16.

Election is fundamentally significant and really at the heart of the matter. I have consistently struggled to accept that election relies on foresight, implying that He selects those whom He perceives will choose to accept Him. I generally align with those who assert that the scope of the atonement has a particular target.

I also hold to particular and unconditional election. However, I have no qualms with one who thinks it is because of foresight. God did know.

We're all a work in progress, brother. I'm continuing to learn new things every day.

Amen


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure (Prov 2)

 

[Silverhair]

t

Greetings Silverhair. Thank you for providing your wisdom to me that I might grow in Christ.

As you may or may not know from all my other posts this past year. I deny the strict dichotomy that one must be on the Providence side (Calvinism) or be on the Arminian side (faith as man's part). On some lines of thought, I am clearly in the Calvinist camp (or what they try and emphasize sometimes), on others, clearly in the Arminian camp (or what they emphasize sometimes).

For background so that you may understand my position (you may or may not agree but at least you will understand me more), the work of Jesus Christ on the cross was for multiple purposes. My view of this can be found, in part, here on the BaptistBoard, The Un/Limited View of the Atonement or Multiple Intentions View.

In short, very short, (A) Christ's Cosmic Triumph fulfilled the Scriptures that He is the Savior of all men (1Tim 4:10). This cosmic victory over sin, death, the Devil, and Hades was to the benefit of all men. He did this because he “desires all men to be saved” (1Tit 2:4). Here, I think the Arminian types are correct.

However, (B) Christ did not come to save every man from the law but only those that believe. The Scripture calls those that would believe, the elect. Christ came to only save the elect from the law. Christ did not come to save those that would not believe from the law. Here, I am more in line with a Calvinist type.

Now I do understand that the Calvinist want to deny (A) but are more than happy to accept (B). Additionally, I understand that the more Arminian types want to deny (B) but are more than happy to accept (A). But both are true, at least from what I read in the Bible.

I believe that God's total will and plan over creation can be done while at the same time man's will can be done (Gen 50:20, "you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good.") Seems like a contradiction that God can plan all our steps from atemporal eternity (Jer 1:5 NKJV, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.")... and yet our temporal will be done...but the scripture says He does and we do (Prov 16:9 "A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.").

So I deny neither.

Peace to you my brother in Christ.

Thank you for your reply.

From what I read in the bible I have to disagree with your view here "The Scripture calls those that would believe, the elect. Christ came to only save the elect from the law. Christ did not come to save those that would not believe from the law."

From this it seems your view holds that God picked out a select group to be saved and only those can be saved and all others are condemned from the start. Am I wrong in this understanding of your view?

From what I see in scripture God desires all to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4, and Christ came so that all could be saved, John 3: 17. Man has the ability to trust in or to reject God and he will be held responsible for the choices he makes, John 3:18.

Christ made provision for all to be able to be saved when He covered all sin at the cross, 1 John 2:2. Those that turn to God in faith will be saved, Romans 10:13. Those that have believed are then one of the elect as they are then in the "Elect One" Christ Jesus, Ephesians 1:13, through the sealing of the Holy Spirit.

As we are told it is by the grace of God that we are saved through faith, we do not deserve it and we can not earn it via good works, Ephesians 2:8-9. Those that turn to God in faith will be saved, Romans 10:13.

So while some have used Ephesians 1:4 to show some were chosen before creation for salvation imo the over all text of the bible shows this view to be in error.

 

[Tea]

Yes God has chosen us that believe in Him to be conformed to the of His son. He did not choose who would believe but what would be the result for those that do believe.

The scriptures tell us these are all actions of God. God does the choosing, not us. Being conformed to the image of His son is one of the many blessings we get from being in Him.

That is something that calvinism has read into scripture. Then they attempt to give themselves cover but contradicting what they just said.

You can try to save yourself from those words but you will continue to fail as they do not leave you any wiggle room. Either God did decree all things or He did not. Calvinists say He did and that logically has to include all sin and evil. Even if you cannot see that.

He did decree all things including all the sin that happens, but He is not the author of evil - man is. If you want to say that He did not decree all things that come to pass, then He must have rolled the dice and ended up where we are today. That doesn't sound like a God who is in control.

Where have I said that man could stop sinning. That is just a strawman argument on your part.

Even those of us who are saved still sin or do you think you are sinless now that you are saved?

By the way Christ was referring to continuing in deliberate sin.

I never said that you said that, I was only using that as an example. By the way, ALL sin is deliberate. Is there such a thing as an accidental sin? The point I was trying to make is that God commands us to do something that can't do.