Do We Have Free Will 2

[Sai]

No we do not. There is no such thing as unlimited free will.

 

[Sai]

If you had free will and God elects you because he knew of your faith by his foreknowledge, then he owes it to you to be saved because you took the first step.

 

[just-want-peace]

No we do not. There is no such thing as unlimited free will.

Yep, you are right!!
If there were, I'd be flying like a bird, cause I started practicing at about 3 or 4 by jumping off a piece of furniture &
"flapping" my arms like crazy!! Never did get the hang of it though!!

 

[timtofly]

If there is no free will, this post does not exist.

 

[canadyjd]

Yep, you are right!!
If there were, I'd be flying like a bird, cause I started practicing at about 3 or 4 by jumping off a piece of furniture &
"flapping" my arms like crazy!! Never did get the hang of it though!!

Your analogy, I think, can make a point about free will. The choices a person makes are bound by natural ability.

You can’t fly by flapping your arms, even if you wanted to, because you don’t have the natural ability.

With salvation, you don’t even have the desire for spiritual things because of your nature.

peace to you

 

[timtofly]

Your analogy, I think, can make a point about free will. The choices a person makes are bound by natural ability.

You can’t fly by flapping your arms, even if you wanted to, because you don’t have the natural ability.

With salvation, you don’t even have the desire for spiritual things because of your nature.

peace to you

Choices that have boundaries are not free will. The choice between death and life has nothing to do with a boundary that cannot be crossed. Overcoming a boundary would be supernatural ability. Free will is not freedom of will. It is the ability to change your will, from one direction to another direction. It is a stop of one will, and accepting a new will. It does not apply to just Atonement. People have been known to change government types. Some people get married. Marriage used to be arranged in some cultures, no matter the will of the parties involved. So, is this an arranged marriage against some people's will, or is this a marriage because of free will and the ability of a human to change their will freely.

 

[Sai]

Your analogy, I think, can make a point about free will. The choices a person makes are bound by natural ability.

You can’t fly by flapping your arms, even if you wanted to, because you don’t have the natural ability.

With salvation, you don’t even have the desire for spiritual things because of your nature.

peace to you

But you still exercise faith

 

[AustinC]

If there is no free will, this post does not exist.

God chose to allow you to post this according to his ordained will, knowing before the foundation of the world that you would post this on the Baptist Board. Had he not ordained that you could write it, you would not have been able to do so. (Read the story of Balaam when he attempted to go against the will of God. Read the story of King Saul when he attempted to kill David and both his servants and himself started prophesying instead.) No created thing can go against the will of God. God ordains what he will.

 

[AustinC]

Choices that have boundaries are not free will. The choice between death and life has nothing to do with a boundary that cannot be crossed. Overcoming a boundary would be supernatural ability. Free will is not freedom of will. It is the ability to change your will, from one direction to another direction. It is a stop of one will, and accepting a new will. It does not apply to just Atonement. People have been known to change government types. Some people get married. Marriage used to be arranged in some cultures, no matter the will of the parties involved. So, is this an arranged marriage against some people's will, or is this a marriage because of free will and the ability of a human to change their will freely.

I agree with the bolded. Thus no one can freely choose God by willing God to save them. They don't have the capacity to will themselves out of the prison of their sin. God does not sit on a shelf of other gods where people walk by and pick the god of their choice.

 

[timtofly]

God chose to allow you to post this according to his ordained will, knowing before the foundation of the world that you would post this on the Baptist Board. Had he not ordained that you could write it, you would not have been able to do so. (Read the story of Balaam when he attempted to go against the will of God. Read the story of King Saul when he attempted to kill David and both his servants and himself started prophesying instead.) No created thing can go against the will of God. God ordains what he will.

Yet I freely chose to obey God. No force required. Free will is still a thing. We will never know what would happen if I had not posted. If my post was to prove what free will is and is true, would you have not responded?

 

[timtofly]

I agree with the bolded. Thus no one can freely choose God by willing God to save them. They don't have the capacity to will themselves out of the prison of their sin. God does not sit on a shelf of other gods where people walk by and pick the god of their choice.

Do you not agree that it is a free choice?

 

[canadyjd]

But you still exercise faith

Yes, but only as a response to God , Holy Spirit, intervening in that persons life so as to make them able to respond.

peace to you

 

[Sai]

Yes, but only as a response to God , Holy Spirit, intervening in that persons life so as to make them able to respond.

peace to you

Agreed

 

[Dave G]

Choices that have boundaries are not free will.

I agree, Tim.
According to the Bible, here are the boundaries of our will as men:

1) We start out life hating God.
Romans 1:30
John 3:19-20.
Romans 3:10-18.

2) To know the Son is to know the Father:
Luke 10:22
Matthew 11:27
John 12:45.
John 14:19.
Colossians 1:15

3) The world of unbelievers hates Jesus Christ and anyone who identifies with Him:
John 15:18
Proverbs 29:27
Matthew 24:9
1 John 3:1
1 John 3:13.
Matthew 24:9.
Psalms 83:2
Psalms 81:15.
John 15:23-24.

Therefore, to hate the Son is to hate the Father.
He as much states it in John 15:23...
It's simply a matter of putting all the pieces together.

We, like the Pharisees, will not come to Him that we may have life ( John 5:40 ) unless we have believed on Him.


So, God's word has already described what our will is like towards Him and His ways right out of the gate.
We've already made our choice, and it is biased against Him.

That is the boundary of where we are as men before God steps in.

 

[Dave G]

Free will is not freedom of will. It is the ability to change your will, from one direction to another direction. It is a stop of one will, and accepting a new will

When it comes to genuinely seeking the Lord and trusting Him, I call that "the new birth".
It is God giving us a new "want to", and it is a miracle of His grace.

I agree that all men can and do make choices everyday...

But when it comes to the Lord, the Bible teaches that men aren't neutral in our affections towards God;
Again, we are already biased, and it has to do with our love of sin:

" without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." ( Romans 1:31-32 ).

" And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." ( John 3:19-20 ).


Free will, when it comes to picking what to have for supper, what to wear to work, and what to buy at the store is a human reality.
Free will, when it comes to desiring God and His ways and wanting to be reconciled to Him ( giving up our sinful ways ), is a spiritual impossibility apart from the mercy and grace of God.

 

[Dave G]

Do you not agree that it is a free choice?

It is a free choice, Tim.

But that choice that we freely made to obey God and to choose Him, was in reality God's work ( John 6:29 ) in our hearts.
That's why He is worthy to be praised...

For without that work on our unrepentant hearts, we would still be dead in our trespasses and sins.

 

[Dave G]

If you had free will and God elects you because he knew of your faith by his foreknowledge, then he owes it to you to be saved because you took the first step.

I agree.
That choice to accept Him ( and Him basing His choice upon our choice of His Son ) then turns the gift of God into a reward for making the right choice...
While the other guy gets sent to Hell for making the wrong choice.

Under this system, who has room to boast in something other than the Lord?
The guy ( or girl ) who made the right choice, wouldn't you say?

 

[Sai]

It is a free choice, Tim.

But that choice that we freely made to obey God and to choose Him, was in reality God's work ( John 6:29 ) in our hearts.
That's why He is worthy to be praised...

For without that work on our unrepentant hearts, we would still be dead in our trespasses and sins.

Amen

 

[timtofly]

So, God's word has already described what our will is like towards Him and His ways right out of the gate. We've already made our choice, and it is biased against Him.

Except the natural boundary is not us making our choice already. That is not a free will choice, if you keep the boundaries in place. You have missed the point where the Holy Spirit is removing those boundaries. We can make a free will choice when the Holy Spirit is working.

 

[timtofly]

Free will, when it comes to picking what to have for supper, what to wear to work, and what to buy at the store is a human reality.
Free will, when it comes to desiring God and His ways and wanting to be reconciled to Him ( giving up our sinful ways ), is a spiritual impossibility apart from the mercy and grace of God.

Well, how many people move out of the boundaries of a routine? The same boundaries exist in normal everyday life. The Holy Spirit is still at work.