Do we have free will to choose to believe and follow God?

[Dave G]

They are God's Word not my words and we should believe and follow them.

I do believe God's words.
I just don't see them in the bits and out-of-context chunks that you seem to.

By the way, do you believe in everlasting torment?

Mark 9:43-48.
Matthew 25:46.
2 Thessalonians 1:9.
Revelation 14:9-11.

Do you believe that all who end up in the Lake of Fire are punished with everlasting torment and destruction?


Salvation is from something...so, while it seems that you're arguing in favor of mankind actually being both willing and able to cooperate with God in the matter of salvation, what exactly do you believe that we are saved from?

 

[Dave G]

What happened, @3rdAngel ?

Your replies were very fast until I asked you that question.

 

[3rdAngel]

Joshua 24:1-25.

Read who is being spoken to here.
To me, you're assuming, in direct contradiction to Romans 3:10-18, that man's will is actually unbiased.

JOSHUA 24:14-15 is spoken to God's people. There is no contradiction to ROMANS 3:10-18 whatsoever.

Ok let's examine your claims here in detail and see if there is any truth in what you are saying here.

JOSHUA 24:14-15 [14], Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve you the LORD. [15], And if it seem evil to you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Your trying to argue that JOSHUA 24:14-15 is not talking about free will because of ROMANS 3:10-18 which says...

ROMANS 3:10-18
[10], As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
[11], There is none that understands, there is none that seeks after God.
[12], They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that does good, no, not one.
[13], Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
[14], Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
[15], Their feet are swift to shed blood:
[16], Destruction and misery are in their ways:
[17], And the way of peace have they not known:
[18], There is no fear of God before their eyes.

..........

You may want to re-check your references Dave, they say nothing against free will and choosing to believe and follow God's Word.

Hope this helps...

 

[3rdAngel]

With respect, it doesn't.

But what you've listed as being the necessities of free will are what I see as "nice sentiments"...
Right out of what we think free will should be, as men.

But how does God Himself describe the heart of man?

Romans 1:18-32.
Romans 3:10-18.
John 3:19-20.
Psalms 58:3.
Jeremiah 13:23.
Jeremiah 17:9.

Many more.

You have not provided a single scripture here that has anything to do with man having or not having free will. You have not provided a single scripture to show that mankind does not have a free will to choose to believe and follow God's Word. It God's Word that is the power of creation to all those who believe.

 

[3rdAngel]

Because what you've listed sounds exactly like what unbelievers say that free will is.
Aleister Crowley had quite a bit to say about what he though free will was defined as, and what its limits were.

But the Bible says that man's will is in bondage to his darkened heart, and that we hate Jesus Christ by default.

The bible does say mankind has a darkened heart but No if mankind did not have free will they could not choose to believe and follow God's Word and the Gospel would not be GOOD NEWS to all mankind. It is God the gives the power through faith. For I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ for it is the POWER of God to everyone who believes *ROMANS 1:16; JOHN 3:15-21.

 

[3rdAngel]

I do believe God's words.
I just don't see them in the bits and out-of-context chunks that you seem to.

Please prove your claims there has nothing been taken out of context in this OP. Please address the OP and prove your claims. If you cannot prove what you are claiming why do you not believe God's Word?

By the way, do you believe in everlasting torment? Salvation is from something...so, while it seems that you're arguing in favor of mankind actually being able to cooperate with God in the matter of salvation, what exactly do you believe that we are saved from?

Salvation is from sin not to continue in it *JOHN 8:31-36 because the wages of sin is death to all those who reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23. It is those who continue in sin that receive their reward of everlasting punishment because they did not choose to believe and follow Gods Word. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it RO.

 

[Dave G]

Ok let's examine your claims here in detail and see if there is any truth in what you are saying here.

Let's not.

I asked you a question as to your other beliefs.
Since you seem reluctant to be honest and up-front about Hell and those Scriptures, why should I engage you on anything else?

At this point, I happen to think that you're a Seventh Day Adventist.
Am I wrong?

 

[3rdAngel]

What happened, @3rdAngel ?
Your replies were very fast until I asked you that question.

Sorry I have real life things to do as well. What does it matter if my replies are fast or slow? It was never because of anything you have said here as you have not provided anything from God's Word to show that mankind does not have free will to choose to believe and follow God's Word and it is God's Word not mine as shown in the OP that we have free will to choose to believe and follow God's Word or not believe and follow God's Word. Only God's Word is true and you have provided none to support anything you have claimed here.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[3rdAngel]

Let's not.

I asked you a question as to your other beliefs.
Since you seem reluctant to be honest and up-front about Hell and those Scriptures, why should I engage you on anything else?

I have answered your question this OP is on free will. You are free to start another thread on your topic somewhere else if you wish to. I can understand why you always seek to change the subject matter however. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it.

 

[Dave G]

Sorry I have real life things to do as well. What does it matter if my replies are fast or slow? It was never because of anything you have said here as you have not provided anything from God's Word to show that mankind does not have free will to choose to believe and follow God's Word and it is God's Word not mine as shown in the OP that we have free will to choose to believe and follow God's Word or not believe and follow God's Word. Only God's Word is true and you have provided none to support anything you have claimed here.

Hope this is helpful.

I think you're reluctant to answer the question.
But if you don't wish to answer it, I understand.

As for answering the OP, I've done that with others on this board in other threads... and it didn't make any difference, then, for me to present the Scriptures as much as I had.
They still disagreed ( just as you will undoubtedly do ), no matter how much I presented and how detailed it got.

I can understand why you always seek to change the subject matter however.

I don't think you really do.

Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it.

I agree, sir.

You wish to change the topic as it does not agree with you.

That is not my motivation for asking you the question on eternal torment.

Since you're teaching what, to me, very much resembles "Wesleyan Arminianism", I thought I'd ask a bit further to see what organization you were part of.
However, since it seems I'm not going to get an answer from you ( at least in this thread as well as the last ) about it, I will take my leave.

I'm also reminded of a few passages that the Lord brought to my attention just now:

2 Peter 2.
2 Timothy 3:8.
2 Timothy 3:13.
2 Timothy 2:22-26. <---- It's this last one that I should have been doing all along, instead of getting caught up in the back-and-forth.


This is my last reply in this thread.

I wish you well, sir.

 

[3rdAngel]

I don't think you really do.
I agree, sir.

Yep I do. You wish to change the topic as it does not agree with you. It is God's Word not mine and we should bring everything to the light of God's Word as it is only in God's Word that we can know the truth and the truth canset us free. God's Word does not teach we are robots.

 

[3rdAngel]

The GREEK from the OP on PHILEMON 1:14 says this...

Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon

ἑκουσιος , ἑκουσιον (ἑκων), “voluntary”: κατα ἑκουσιον, “of free will,” Philemon 1:14. (Numbers 15:3; καθ' ἑκουσιαν, Thucydides 8, 27 — *

Vines
Usage Notes: "willing," is used with kata in Philem. 1:14, lit., "according to willing," RV, "of free will" (AV, "willingly").

ἑκούσιος, ία, ιον (Soph., Thu.+; inscr., pap., LXX, Philo) voluntary, as a volunteer κατὰ ἑκούσιον (opp. κατὰ ἀνάγκην) of one’s own free will Phlm 14 (Num 15:3

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature : A Translation and Adaption of the Fourth Revised and Augmented Edition of Walter Bauer’s Griechisch-Deutsches Worterbuch Zu Den Schrift En Des Neuen Testaments Und Der Ubrigen Urchristlichen Literatur (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1979), 243.

ἑκούσιος hekousios; from 1635; of free will, voluntary:—free will(1).

Robert L. Thomas, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries : Updated Edition (Anaheim: Foundation Publications, Inc., 1998).

ἑκούσιος
hekousios, adj., willing; acting of free will; willingly. 14× +NT

The Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the Septuagint (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012).

Hope this helps....

 

[3rdAngel]

That is not my motivation for asking you the question on eternal torment.

Since you're teaching what every much resembles "Wesleyan Arminianism", I thought I'd ask a bit further to see what organization you were part of.
However, it seems I'm not going to get a straight answer out of you in this thread about it, so I will take my leave.

I'm also reminded of a few passages that the Lord brought to my attention just now:

2 Peter 2.
2 Timothy 3:8.
2 Timothy 3:13.
2 Timothy 2:22-26. <---- It's this last one that I should have been doing all along, instead of getting caught up in the back-and-forth.


This is my last reply in this thread.
I wish you well, sir.

Thanks for the discussion Dave. Your false allegations that you cannot prove from the scriptures are noted. I do not follow anyone except God's Word. In this thread I have only provided God's Word to you but you do not believe it. I can understand why you do not wish to talk about this topic as it does not agree with you, yet it is God's Word not mine so your arguement is with God not me. I only wish you well Dave. Maybe you can pray about it.

 

[loDebar]

one can realize their need and exercise the will given to us, but we can do little else without the finished work of Christ

We have the free will to trust God or not. If any one does not believe we have free will, they ultimate believe God initiates sin.
Free Will does not included the power to exercise choices, just wanting a choice

 

[prophecy70]

ONLY God has absolute Free Will....

Can God be evil?

 

[1689Dave]

Do we have free will to choose to believe and follow God?

Hi all some interesting scriptures shared from a good brother.

SOME INTERESTING SCRIPTURES ON FREE WILL

PHILEMON 1:14 (different translations)

(ARV 2005) but without thy mind I would do nothing, that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, BUT OF FREE WILL.

(ASV-2014) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, BUT OF FREE WILL.

(Anderson) but, without your consent, I was not willing to do any thing, that your good deed might not be as a matter of necessity, BUT ONE OF FREE WILL.

(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, BUT OF FREE WILL.

(FAA) but I did not want to do anything without your opinion, so that your good deed would not be as it were under compulsion, BUT OF FREE WILL.

(GDBY_NT) but without your consent I did not wish to do anything; in order that your good might not be by constraint, BUT BY THE FREE WILL

(GW) Yet, I didn't want to do anything without your consent. I want you to do this favor for me OUT OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL WITHOUT FEELING FORCED TO DO IT

(csb) But I didn't want to do anything without your consent, so that your good deed might not be out of obligation, BUT OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL

(LEB) But apart from your consent, I wanted to do nothing, in order that your good deed might be not as according to necessity, but ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN FREE WILL

(MRC) but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness might not be by necessity, BUT OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL.

(MNT) But without your consent I was unwilling to do anything, so that your kindness to me might be OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL AND NOT OF COMPULSION.

(NTVR) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, BUT OF FREE WILL.

(NWT) But without your consent I do not want to do anything, so that your good act may be, not as under compulsion, BUT OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL.

(Revised Standard ) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion BUT OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL.

(RNT) but without your consent I am unwilling to do anything, so that your goodness may not be of necessity BUT OF FREE WILL.

(RSV-CE) but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion BUT OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL.

(TLV) But I didn’t want to do anything without your consent, so that your goodness wouldn’t be by force BUT OF FREE WILL.

(WEB) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, BUT OF FREE WILL.

(WEB (R)) But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, BUT OF FREE WILL.

(Wuest's) Georgia;;14-16 But I came to a decision in my heart to do nothing without your consent, in order that your goodness might not be as it were by compulsion BUT OF FREE WILL. For perhaps on this account he was parted for a brief time in order that you might be possessing him fully and forever, no longer in the capacity of a slave, but above a slave, a brother , a beloved one, beloved most of all by me, how much more than that by you, both in his human relationship and in the Lord.

(NASB77) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, BUT OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL.

(NASB95)14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion BUT OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL.

(TEV)14 However, I do not want to force you to help me; rather, I WOULD LIKE FOR YOU TO DO IT OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL. So I will not do anything unless you agree.

(ERV) 14 but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, BUT OF FREE WILL.

(NHEB) 14 But I was willing to do nothing without your consent, that your goodness would not be as of necessity, BUT OF FREE WILL.

(TCE) 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your goodness would not be, in effect, by compulsion BUT OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL.

and you can add both the NEB and the REB

CT 14but I would not do any thing without thy consent, that the benefit derived from thee might not be as it were forced, BUT OF FREE WILL.

NENT 14but without thy: mind I wished to do nothing; that thy: goodness be not as of necessity, BUT OF FREE WILL.

SLT 14 But without thy judgment I would do nothing; that good might not be as according to necessity, BUT ACCORDING TO FREE WILL..

(NEB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, BUT OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL.

(REB) 14 But I would rather do nothing without your consent, so that your kindness may be a matter not of compulsion, BUT OF YOUR OWN FREE WILL.

............

ALL the above scripture tranlsations translate free will in the following context...

Free will we see is not a matter of necessity
Free will is a will not under compulsion
Free will is consensual
Free will is a will not forced

............

From alternate translations

Philemon 1:14 (ESV) 14 but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord.

Philemon 1:14 (KJV) 14 But without thy mind would I do nothing; that thy benefit should not be as it were of necessity, but willingly.

Philemon 1:14 (NET1) 14 However,[33] without your consent I did not want to do anything, so that your good deed would not be out of compulsion, but from your own willingness.

Philemon 1:14 (NIV2011) 14 But I did not want to do anything without your consent, so that any favor you do would not seem forced but would be voluntary.

Philemon 1:14 (NJB) 14 However, I did not want to do anything without your consent; it would have been forcing your act of kindness, which should be spontaneous.

Philemon 1:14 (NRSV) 14 but I preferred to do nothing without your consent, in order that your good deed might be voluntary and not something forced.

Philemon 1:14 (BBE) 14 But without your approval I would do nothing; so that your good works might not be forced, but done freely from your heart.

Philemon 1:14 (MontgomeryNT) 14 But without your consent I was unwilling to do anything, so that your kindness to me might be of your own free will, and not of compulsion.

Philemon 1:14 (CEB) 14 However, I didn't want to do anything without your consent so that your act of kindness would occur willingly and not under pressure.

Philemon 1:14 (CEV) 14 But I won't do anything unless you agree to it first. I want your act of kindness to come from your heart, and not be something you feel forced to do.

............

ALL the above scripture tranlsations translate free will in the following context...

Free will is without necessity
Free will is without compulsion
Free will is without force
Free will is a will not pressured
Free will is from one own heart
Free will is a voluntary
Free will is of your own accord
Free will is without constraint

And one last verse not Phm 1:14

1 Corinthians 7:37 (KJV) 37 Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well.

Free will has no necessity and is under ones own power


Deuteronomy 30:19 KJB - I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

JOSHUA 24:14-15 [14], Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve you the LORD. [15], And if it seem evil to you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Not looking so good for those who believe in robots.

.............

QUESTIONS:

1. How do you see free will?

God bless.

Here's how it plays out. A cat is free to think and choose like a cat. But it cannot think and choose like a dog. Sinners are free to think and choose like a sinner, but they cannot think and choose like Jesus. When Jesus is in a person's heart, they cannot think and choose like the sinners they once were. They think like Jesus and choose what he chooses.

 

[3rdAngel]

Here's how it plays out. A cat is free to think and choose like a cat. But it cannot think and choose like a dog. Sinners are free to think and choose like a sinner, but they cannot think and choose like Jesus. When Jesus is in a person's heart, they cannot think and choose like the sinners they once were. They think like Jesus and choose what he chooses.

Sorry but we are not cats and dogs we are made in the image of God *GENESIS 1:26 and have free will to choose to believe and follow God's Word or not to believe and follow God's Word *JOHN 3:15-21; PHILEMON 1:14; 1 CORINTHIANS 7:37; DEUTERONOMY 30:19; JOSHUA 24:14-15. God's Word is the power of creation as we believe 1 JOHN 5:4.

 

[1689Dave]

Sorry but we are not cats and dogs we are made in the image of God *GENESIS 1:26 and have free will to choose to believe and follow God's Word or not to believe and follow God's Word *JOHN 3:15-21; PHILEMON 1:14; 1 CORINTHIANS 7:37; DEUTERONOMY 30:19; JOSHUA 24:14-15. God's Word is the power of creation as we believe 1 JOHN 5:4.

But sinners cannot stop being sinners just as a cat cannot stop being a cat. Unless God makes us into a new creation.

 

[Yeshua1]

Of course we are not God but all those who believe and follow God's Word are His Children *1 JOHN 3:3-10. Mankind was made and created in His image *GENESIS 1:26. Being created in God's image we have free will to choose to believe and follow God's Word or not to believe and follow what God says. There are both rewards and consequences for what we choose to do.
God bless

We have sin natures, and as such, there are certain things that we will not desire nor want to do on our own, like obeying God and coming to Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

No.

Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20, Psalms 10:4, Psalms 53:1-4.

Men are not robots.

"Free will", a will that is completely free to choose whatever it wants, is an illusion created by the carnal mind.
Scripture tells us that man's will is already biased against God ( Psalms 58:3 ) and in favor of sin and loving it.
So, our will is not free, but enslaved to our love of sin and hatred of God ( Romans 1:30, among many others ).

Aleister Crowley was wrong.

We are still free to do as we wish, but the sin nature limits us as to what we can desire and now wish to do!