I find it funny when humans who were locked in the prison of their own sin, who were dead in their trespasses and sins, call God a dictator and puppet master for choosing to save them. It is so amazingly disrespectful of God's gracious favor in redeeming them.
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Do We Have Free-Will?
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Miss E
Active Member
We will have to agree to disagree then. I am sure both of us are still in God's hands no matter whose point is the true one in he end.
Your in good company Satan thinks it funny too. Pour on the insults you're not good at anything else. I suppose you ignored Acts 28:28.
By the way they made fun of Christ as well.
MB
Satan thinks it's funny that God chooses to redeem people out of their inescapable prison?
Acts 28:25-28 is better than one verse.
“The Holy Spirit was right in saying to your fathers through Isaiah the prophet
“The Holy Spirit was right in saying to your fathers through Isaiah the prophet:
“‘Go to this people, and say,
You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.”
For this people's heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed;
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’
Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen.”
What we see is that God chooses in this passage. How do you come up with free-will from this text?
Miss E
Active Member
God is saying that He offers salvation , not that He is giving it out to whom he pleases. You need to compare scripture with scripture.
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! (Matthew 23:37)
and
And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)
Clearly these two verses teach we have free will to choose
If you offer me the choice between coffee and tea, do I have free will to drink either? Or is my will overridden by the fact that I prefer coffee?
If that seems a bit silly, consider John 3:19. 'And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.' Their free will to come to the Light and follow the Lord Jesus Christ was overridden by the fact that they would not give up their sins. Their is no suggestion that God is preventing them from coming to Christ, or forcing them to do evil. They themselves preferred evil because they had wicked unbelieving hearts.
Jeremiah 13:23. 'Can the Ethiopean change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to doing evil.' The Israelites were unable to do good because of their sinful natures. Man's problem is not that his will is fixed by God to prevent us coming to Christ; it is that he himself prefers not to do so and is morally and spiritually incapable of doing good consistently. That is why men need a change in their disposition; a change so radical that it can only be called a new birth, and only God can give it to us. Otherwise
So do we have free will? Only insofar as we freely will to sin until such time as God washes away our sinful nature, cleanses us from our sin and idolatry, gives us a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:25-27) and puts His Holy Spirit within us and causes us freely to prefer light to darkness.
If that seems a bit silly, consider John 3:19. 'And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.' Their free will to come to the Light and follow the Lord Jesus Christ was overridden by the fact that they would not give up their sins. Their is no suggestion that God is preventing them from coming to Christ, or forcing them to do evil. They themselves preferred evil because they had wicked unbelieving hearts.
Jeremiah 13:23. 'Can the Ethiopean change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to doing evil.' The Israelites were unable to do good because of their sinful natures. Man's problem is not that his will is fixed by God to prevent us coming to Christ; it is that he himself prefers not to do so and is morally and spiritually incapable of doing good consistently. That is why men need a change in their disposition; a change so radical that it can only be called a new birth, and only God can give it to us. Otherwise
So do we have free will? Only insofar as we freely will to sin until such time as God washes away our sinful nature, cleanses us from our sin and idolatry, gives us a new heart and a new spirit (Ezekiel 36:25-27) and puts His Holy Spirit within us and causes us freely to prefer light to darkness.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
No. That's man's viewpoint of love, not God's.
Where does God say he offers salvation to those who choose him?
The verses you have quoted are written to the chosen people of Israel. God chose them before he said they need to choose. Moreso, you share a sentence, but not the context around the verse.
Let me play your game. Clearly God promises wealth to all who worship him.
Luke 4:7 If you, then, will worship me, it will all be yours.”
See. The verse tells us so.
Now, go read Luke 4 and tell me if I have used that verse correctly as my prooftext.
As long as you refuse to read all of scripture and let the context of scripture inform you, you will struggle with embracing false doctrines.
Thats not the verse for that at all.Though it does rove Gentiles can hear This below is Jesus' own words.
Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.
Paul said; 2Co_8:12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.
God said;
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
This proves we have a choice as the Jews do. The Bible is full of God giving men choices for men to make.
Here is another choice.
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
This choice below is one reason the Jews were blinded;
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
This destroys irresistible grace all you have to do is open your eyes to see that you are deceived. You need the truth. Unlress you believe there are lies in scripture.
MB
Which position?
MB, your abuse of scripture is head scratching. Cherry picking verses out of context is what cult members do. Why do you follow that pattern?
Here's 2 Corinthians 8:1-15. The passage has nothing to do with your argument, yet you claim it as a prooftext.
We want you to know, brothers, about the grace of God that has been given among the churches of Macedonia, for in a severe test of affliction, their abundance of joy and their extreme poverty have overflowed in a wealth of generosity on their part. For they gave according to their means, as I can testify, and beyond their means, of their own accord, begging us earnestly for the favor of taking part in the relief of the saints— and this, not as we expected, but they gave themselves first to the Lord and then by the will of God to us. Accordingly, we urged Titus that as he had started, so he should complete among you this act of grace. But as you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in all earnestness, and in our love for you—see that you excel in this act of grace also. I say this not as a command, but to prove by the earnestness of others that your love also is genuine. For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you by his poverty might become rich. And in this matter I give my judgment: this benefits you, who a year ago started not only to do this work but also to desire to do it. So now finish doing it as well, so that your readiness in desiring it may be matched by your completing it out of what you have. For if the readiness is there, it is acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what he does not have. For I do not mean that others should be eased and you burdened, but that as a matter of fairness your abundance at the present time should supply their need, so that their abundance may supply your need, that there may be fairness. As it is written, “Whoever gathered much had nothing left over, and whoever gathered little had no lack.”
Please, if you want anyone to think you have a legitimate argument, you have to stop quoting scripture like Al Gore, Joe Biden or a Muslim Imam.
Mt 23 says you were not willing....they were bound by sin and not willing.
Rev22 .Is to those who thirst,and hear..
They are being drawn
rodneyo777
Member
I have asked this same question. I have come to a semi-firm conclusion, but I am very open to being right, or wrong...
To those called, and chosen, like Paul....NO (imagine the world without Paul's letters to the church),
To those who are not elect, called, or chosen, like Hitler, Yes, he was free to sin. He had a will of his own.
To those called, and chosen, like Paul....NO (imagine the world without Paul's letters to the church),
To those who are not elect, called, or chosen, like Hitler, Yes, he was free to sin. He had a will of his own.
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