All the verses apply to God's chosen people. Steve, context matters.The bible presents us a choice to please or displease God. His will can be understood thus in terms of things that please Him and displease Him.
Psalm 115:3 and Psalm 135:6 show God does what pleases Him
Ecclesiastes 8:3 shows kings also do all that pleases them.
The bible says the following please God:
To keep His commandments (1 John 3:22)
To suffer for Him (2 corinthians 2:16-17)
Spreading the Gospel (1 Thessalonians 2:4)
Pleasing God over men (Galatians 1:10)
Earnestly attempting to find Him (Hebrews 11:6)
Believing He exists (Hebrews 11:6)
Singing praise to God (Psalm 135:3 and 147:1)
Not being conformed to the world (Romans 12:1-2)
The words of our mouth and the meditation of our heart should be aimed to please Him (Psalm 19:14)
Those that fear Him (Psalm 147:10-11)
Those that hope in His steadfast love (Psalm 147:10-11)
Children obeying their parents (Colossians 3:20)
Giving thanks in all circumstances (1 Thessalonians 5:18)
Burnt offering (Exodus 29:18)
Sharing of what we have to others (Hebrews 13:16)
Giving the Kingdom to the saints (Luke 12:32)
Revealing Christ to Paul who was set apart and Called to his ministry to the Gentiles from before birth (Galatians 1:15)
When God smelled the burnt offering Noah gave Him (Genesis 8:20-22)
Preaching the folly of the Cross to save those that believe (1 Corinthians 1:21)
To pray that everyone has a peaceful, quiet, godfly, and dignified life (1 Timothy 2:1-4)
For widows to ask their parents for financial help (1 Timothy 5:4)
Keeping the faith (Hebrews 10:35-39)
Making Israel God’s possession (1 Samuel 12:22)
Israel when it is brought back from exile (Ezekiel 20:41)
The young son of Jeroboam (1 Kings 14:12-14)
God’s covenant with David that his kingdom be established forever (1 Chronicles 17:27)
God had pleasure in David before making him king over Israel (1 Chronicles 28:4)
Wisdom (Proverbs 3:17)
To do justice, love kindness, and walk humbly with God is more pleasing than sacrifice and burnt offering (Micah 6:6-8)
Hosea 10:10 shows God executes justice when it pleases Him to.
The temple of God (Haggai 1:8)
Adding to this are the following observations from scripture:
Hezekiah claims righteousness from his actions and is rewarded with longer life in Isaiah 38:1-8
Isaiah 5:7 compares Israel to a pleasant plant planted by God
Romans 8:8 shows in the context of Romans 8:1-11 that God is displeased with those who gratify their flesh instead of living by the Spirit of God in believers.
Hebrews 12:4-13 tells us God scourges and discipline His children, God is certainly pleased by this even if His children view it as painful.
Luke 10:21 and Matthew 11:25 show God is pleased to hide the truths Jesus teaches from the wise and learned to instead give them to humble servants
Mark 12:33 shows God is more pleased by love for God with all our being and love of neighbor than any burnt offerings or sacrifices.
Hosea 6 in context shows God desires mercy and the knowledge of God and He does not desire sacrifices or burnt offerings without such. This becomes more evident given Psalm 40:6. Psalm 50:7-15 shows God wants are vows to His commandments fulfilled and that we call upon Him in our day of trouble. Psalm 51:16-17 adds that God desires a contrite and broken spirit before sacrifice. Isaiah 1:10-20 exhorts us to do right, seek justice, correct the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead the case of the widow before burnt offering and sacrifice. Giving God praise and thanksgiving is better than burnt offerings and sacrifices. Jeremiah 6:19-20 shows God takes no pleasure in sacrifice and burnt offering if there is rejection of His Law and no attention paid to His Words.
When people turn from sin to live Ezekiel 18:23 and Ezekiel 33:11. God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked or of anyone (Ezekiel 18:23, 32).
Isaiah 56:4 shows God rewards those that please Him.
Isaiah 42:21 shows God is pleased to have made His Law great and glorious.
1 Samuel 15:22 tells us obedience and attentiveness please God more than burnt offerings and sacrifices, which still please God
Proverbs 21:3 tells us to do the right thing and justice are more pleasing to God than sacrifice
Ephesians 5:2 tells us Jesus Christ was a pleasing offering to God
1 Thessalonians 4:1-5 show believers must learn to control their own actions.
Psalm 147:11 raises a question do we fear God and steadfastly love Him before regeneration?
Psalm 69:30-31 shows that we can praise God with song and thank Him to please Him. Did that act to please God require regeneration?
1 Kings 3:10 shows us Solomon does something of his own volition that pleases God.
Philippians 2:12-16 tells the Colossians to work out their salvation in fear and trembling doing good because it is God in them working in them to will and act for His pleasure. They are immediately told not to complain or argue while doing anything.
Psalm 149:4 tells us God takes pleasure in His people Israel
Hebrews 11:5-6 Enoch is commended for pleasing God, it is why he never saw death
Ephesians 5:8-10 tell us we must discern what is pleasing to God
John 8:29 tells us Jesus always does what pleases God
1 Thessalonians 4:1-3 tells us the apostles teach how to please God, it is to obey God’s commandments in sanctification, in the case of the Thesallonaians especially to abstain from sexual sin.
Colossians 1:9-10 tells us to seek God’s will to please Him with our walk
1 Chronicles 29:17 has a man claiming uprightness of his own heart and that God tests the heart and is pleased with uprightness. This also segues with 1 Thessalonians 2:4.
The scriptures are full of pleas to please God rather than displeasure Him with our actions. If it was impossible to choose to please God, then why the constant appeals?
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Do We Have Free-Will?
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All the verses apply to God's chosen people. Steve, context matters.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
So Calvinist accept we have free will, but we cannot use it...
Once we use it, it is called works? Nope, changing the definition of free will.
We cannot choose salvation, because it is against our will? Nope, changing the definition again. Changing one's mind, is not an act of free will, nor going against one's nature. Being able to change one's mind is a natural ability apart from free will.
Part of the issue is you cannot define the Bible with a doctrine. A doctrine is just another interpretation. There are tons of doctrines that stand on their own. Reformed theology twist 5 doctrines so they complement each other. Some of them cannot even stand on their own, without being propped up by a few others. But because they work as a group, their ability to stand on their own is swept under the rug, and the deception runs very deep under that rug.
The biggest issue is determinism. Because that is the definition reformed theology gives to election and predestination. There is no determinism in election nor predestination. Without knowing it, or even admitting the fact, reformed theology has been mixed with the pagan belief of fate and determinism, thus turning Salvation and the Atonement into a false theology of paganism. It is so ingrained into the teaching process, that all scripture just has to prove determinism, but that is a lie from Satan, just like Satan lied to Eve. The tree does not make one wise. God does not use pagan determinism in Salvation. The Atonement was for all of Adam's descendants. All of Adam's descendants are free to accept or reject Salvation. Yes, our will, flesh, desires, sin, Satan, and spiritual darkness is all working against us. The Holy Spirit since conception has sealed us and has been working in our favor. Nothing we can do can change our situation. We do have free will to choose. We can change our minds, and willingly. The Holy Spirit is the only power that can change our mind and will, but we can and do have free will to make a decision. Trusting God is the same free will choice that Adam had. After our choice and before does happen by all God's power and ability.
The difference is reformed theology adds the pagan notion that, either fate or determinism makes the choice for us and not ourselves. Of course they cannot use Scripture to point that out, because God’s Word does not teach pagan belief, but that is what they change the definition of free will to. Then claim free will manipulates God. Nope, pagan fate and determinism manipulates God. Satan's deception runs deep.
Once we use it, it is called works? Nope, changing the definition of free will.
We cannot choose salvation, because it is against our will? Nope, changing the definition again. Changing one's mind, is not an act of free will, nor going against one's nature. Being able to change one's mind is a natural ability apart from free will.
Part of the issue is you cannot define the Bible with a doctrine. A doctrine is just another interpretation. There are tons of doctrines that stand on their own. Reformed theology twist 5 doctrines so they complement each other. Some of them cannot even stand on their own, without being propped up by a few others. But because they work as a group, their ability to stand on their own is swept under the rug, and the deception runs very deep under that rug.
The biggest issue is determinism. Because that is the definition reformed theology gives to election and predestination. There is no determinism in election nor predestination. Without knowing it, or even admitting the fact, reformed theology has been mixed with the pagan belief of fate and determinism, thus turning Salvation and the Atonement into a false theology of paganism. It is so ingrained into the teaching process, that all scripture just has to prove determinism, but that is a lie from Satan, just like Satan lied to Eve. The tree does not make one wise. God does not use pagan determinism in Salvation. The Atonement was for all of Adam's descendants. All of Adam's descendants are free to accept or reject Salvation. Yes, our will, flesh, desires, sin, Satan, and spiritual darkness is all working against us. The Holy Spirit since conception has sealed us and has been working in our favor. Nothing we can do can change our situation. We do have free will to choose. We can change our minds, and willingly. The Holy Spirit is the only power that can change our mind and will, but we can and do have free will to make a decision. Trusting God is the same free will choice that Adam had. After our choice and before does happen by all God's power and ability.
The difference is reformed theology adds the pagan notion that, either fate or determinism makes the choice for us and not ourselves. Of course they cannot use Scripture to point that out, because God’s Word does not teach pagan belief, but that is what they change the definition of free will to. Then claim free will manipulates God. Nope, pagan fate and determinism manipulates God. Satan's deception runs deep.
Miss E,
Free will does not exist at all.
Men have a will.
Men make choices.
Their will is not free.
That is a carnal philosophical notion, not biblical teaching.
Free will does not exist at all.
Men have a will.
Men make choices.
Their will is not free.
That is a carnal philosophical notion, not biblical teaching.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
Nope, pagan carnal philosophy claims there is no free will, just like you just did. You are arguing for paganism and human philosophy, not against them.
God gave all humans free will, and it is not limited. Humans themselves have limits, even limits to their will. Those limits do not effect free will, as you all are just changing the definition of free will, to make your limits logical. Stop changing the definition and free will works just fine without all those scary limits. Those limits do belong to will and human nature. If you want to get really illogical, the sky may not even be the limit.
You cannot show one verse that says free will in terms of mans will. You cannot show any verses that teach it....you will offer verses that say ...choose, but that does not address the will.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
We always choose for a reason. But God controls our free choices through the reasons we base them on.
London Baptist Confession; Westminster Confession:Chapter 3:1 God's Eternal Decree;
“God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.”
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Steven,
I've thought about how I would reply to your post here, and I've decided to make this my last reply in this thread.
This is the "Baptist theology and Bible Study" section...
As one who in convinced of the merits and truthfulness of the London Baptist Confession of 1644/46, I see no reason to limit my participation nor the offering of my thoughts about specific subjects to one section or another on a board that is dedicated to Baptists.
I believe and hold to Baptist distinctives, such as "believer's baptism", the autonomy of the local assembly and many others.
Unless the owner of this board or its admins mandates that "Calvinistic Baptists" are not allowed to voice their opinions of how the Lord accomplishes the salvation of souls outside of the "Calvinism versus Arminianism" section ( which is open to non-"Baptists" as well ), then I will continue to offer my thoughts in the other Baptist sections of this board, should I feel compelled to write them.
@Miss E asked a question, and I answered it to the best of my conscience.
If you find that offensive, then I am sorry for the offense...
But I am not sorry for how I view the Scriptures nor am I sorry about voicing those thoughts.
As always, I wish you well, sir, and may the Lord bless you with many gifts and remind you of His great grace towards you each and every day.
Free will = making choices?
Since I’m waiting for my food and have some time to argue semantics, what is a your definition of free-will and it’s relation to making choices?
Your will is bound by your nature.
A Holy God is not free to sin.
In heaven saints are not free to sin.
You missed the question - relation between free-will and making choices . . .
By the way - that isn’t even a definition.
I spoke out of frustration. I'm sorry if I offended. Thank you for a kind reply.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Concerning human will and making choices. The human will is influenced by many things outside of itself. Therefore, human will cannot be said to be free. Ultimately, a person will choose the thing they desire the most, according to the various influences that affect the will.
Concerning human will and choosing spiritual things, such as choosing Jesus as Savior and Lord. The human will is so influenced by worldly things, especially its own sin nature, it is incapable of desiring Spiritual things, including choosing Jesus for salvation, unless God Holy Spirit intervenes in that persons life.
Holy Spirit intervention is called many things: conviction, nudging, drawing and others.
Almost all acknowledge the essential element of Holy Spirit intervention in the salvation process, but differ on how much influence is given and whether all receive the same amount of Holy Spirit influence.
Peace to you
Free will does not exist so there is no relation between it and choices.
If you are just going to invent things you can suggest anything you want, as it is only fabricated .
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
Freed from sins dominion, we are never free to sin.
Miss E
Active Member
Can any of the ones who say we do NOT have the free will to CHOOSE to follow Jesus as our Lord and Savior explain to me how that DOES NOT make God out to be a God who FORCES His chosen to love Him?
I agree that God has chosen us in times past before we were, and so He KNOWS who will be His true disciples, but that does NOT (in my biblically supported view) mean that God has not given us the freedom to CHOOSE to have faith in Him and follow Him as our Lord.
Sure the Holy Spirit is used to help convict us of sin, but He does not FORCE us to want to follow Him. The Holy Spirit is like the angel on our shoulder telling us what we do is wrong and that we ought to choose right (God) and then there is our sinful nature, the "demon" on our other shoulder (if you will) that is tempting us and trying to keep us from pursing righteous God.
This is a simple concept to grasp! Explain to me, the ones who disagree on free will to Choose God or Not, why they cannot agree with the above points.
I agree that God has chosen us in times past before we were, and so He KNOWS who will be His true disciples, but that does NOT (in my biblically supported view) mean that God has not given us the freedom to CHOOSE to have faith in Him and follow Him as our Lord.
Sure the Holy Spirit is used to help convict us of sin, but He does not FORCE us to want to follow Him. The Holy Spirit is like the angel on our shoulder telling us what we do is wrong and that we ought to choose right (God) and then there is our sinful nature, the "demon" on our other shoulder (if you will) that is tempting us and trying to keep us from pursing righteous God.
This is a simple concept to grasp! Explain to me, the ones who disagree on free will to Choose God or Not, why they cannot agree with the above points.
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Free-will is a made-up term which doesn't really exist and humans can make choices.
I can agree with that.
The term is made up.
God is not free to lie.
God cannot change.
If God is not free to go against His own nature which is perfect in Holy wisdom, knowledge, and power....no one can.
Satan and carnal philosophers invent the term as the pinnacle of rebellion against God.
lk19:14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
Taint so
Miss E
Active Member
BUT WE ARE NOT GOD, To say we can do something (or not do in this case) that God does, puts up on the same pinnacle with God.
God says:
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isiah 55: 8-9)
Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away…See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live…. (Deut. 30:11–19)
Here's a link that might help enlighten some of the doubters of our free will to choose or not choose God as our master:
What is the biblical basis for "free will"? - Greg Boyd - ReKnew
Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him. 19 Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?” (John 7:17-19)
But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.” (Joshua 24:15)
I have come to the conclusion that “FREE WIILL” for a human has as many definitions as people offering same!!!
IMHO, if man did not have a CHOICE whether to accept or reject Jesus’ sacrifice, then Jn. 3:16 is null & void. “- - WHOSOEVER WILL - -” is the operative phrase to the scope of His sacrifice. It was not “whosoever I choose - -“. But “WHOSOEVER WILL”!!
Now if you want to get into a semantic tussle, there are all kinds of rabbit trails to explore, but I think the OP was referring to a man’s choice to ACCEPT/ REJECT God’s offer of salvation. Really has nothing to do with whether I can flap my arms and fly!
My apologies if I have misinterpreted the OP.
IMHO, if man did not have a CHOICE whether to accept or reject Jesus’ sacrifice, then Jn. 3:16 is null & void. “- - WHOSOEVER WILL - -” is the operative phrase to the scope of His sacrifice. It was not “whosoever I choose - -“. But “WHOSOEVER WILL”!!
Now if you want to get into a semantic tussle, there are all kinds of rabbit trails to explore, but I think the OP was referring to a man’s choice to ACCEPT/ REJECT God’s offer of salvation. Really has nothing to do with whether I can flap my arms and fly!
My apologies if I have misinterpreted the OP.
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