Do We Have Free-Will?

[canadyjd]

Can any of the ones who say we do NOT have the free will to CHOOSE to follow Jesus as our Lord and Savior explain to me how that DOES NOT make God out to be a God who FORCES His chosen to love Him?

I agree that God has chosen us in times past before we were, and so He KNOWS who will be His true disciples, but that does NOT (in my biblically supported view) mean that God has not given us the freedom to CHOOSE to have faith in Him and follow Him as our Lord.

Sure the Holy Spirit is used to help convict us of sin, but He does not FORCE us to want to follow Him. The Holy Spirit is like the angel on our shoulder telling us what we do is wrong and that we ought to choose right (God) and then there is our sinful nature, the "demon" on our other shoulder (if you will) that is tempting us and trying to keep us from pursing righteous God.

This is a simple concept to grasp! Explain to me, the ones who disagree on free will to Choose God or Not, why they cannot agree with the above points.

God does not force us. He looks upon our helpless condition, knows we are enslaved to sin, and knows we cannot chose Him on our own and He shows mercy by intervening to free us from worldly influences and convicts us of the truth of who we are as sinners and our need for Jesus as Savior and we respond to His intervention with faith.

BTW, you compared God to angels. I know you didn’t intend to be dishonoring to God, but it is. Angels do what God tells them to do. God doesn’t act like angels.

peace to you

 

[Iconoclast]

BUT WE ARE NOT GOD, To say we can do something (or not do in this case) that God does, puts up on the same pinnacle with God.

God says:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD. "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isiah 55: 8-9)

Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away…See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the Lord your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess. But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish…I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live…. (Deut. 30:11–19)

Here's a link that might help enlighten some of the doubters of our free will to choose or not choose God as our master:

What is the biblical basis for "free will"? - Greg Boyd - ReKnew

Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him. 19 Did not Moses give you the law, yet none of you keeps the law? Why do you seek to kill Me?” (John 7:17-19)

But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.” (Joshua 24:15)

Hello miss E,
A person whose will is bound still makes choices.
Choice is not the issue.
Everyone agrees that there are choices.
Are you aware Greg Boyd is an open theist?
I will work through his article later on.

 

[Iconoclast]

I have come to the conclusion that “FREE WIILL” for a human has as many definitions as people offering same!!!
IMHO, if man did not have a CHOICE whether to accept or reject Jesus’ sacrifice, then Jn. 3:16 is null & void. “- - WHOSOEVER WILL - -” is the operative phrase to the scope of His sacrifice. It was not “whosoever I choose - -“. But “WHOSOEVER WILL”!!
Now if you want to get into a semantic tussle, there are all kinds of rabbit trails to explore, but I think the OP was referring to a man’s choice to ACCEPT/ REJECT God’s offer of salvation. Really has nothing to do with whether I can flap my arms and fly!
My apologies if I have misinterpreted the OP.

A problem you have is in 3:16 does not say whosoever will.
It says everyone believing.

 

[Van]

A problem you have is in 3:16 does not say whosoever will.
It says everyone believing.

The Calvinist version of John 3:16 has God loved some of the world in this way, He gave His one of a kind Son so that everyone God causes to be believing in Him, shall not perish but have eternal life. Not how it reads.

 

[Miss E]

I have come to the conclusion that “FREE WIILL” for a human has as many definitions as people offering same!!!
IMHO, if man did not have a CHOICE whether to accept or reject Jesus’ sacrifice, then Jn. 3:16 is null & void. “- - WHOSOEVER WILL - -” is the operative phrase to the scope of His sacrifice. It was not “whosoever I choose - -“. But “WHOSOEVER WILL”!!
Now if you want to get into a semantic tussle, there are all kinds of rabbit trails to explore, but I think the OP was referring to a man’s choice to ACCEPT/ REJECT God’s offer of salvation. Really has nothing to do with whether I can flap my arms and fly!
My apologies if I have misinterpreted the OP.

You interpreted my OP point on. Thank you for clarifying what I've been trying to explain to the doubters.

 

[Miss E]

God does not force us. He looks upon our helpless condition, knows we are enslaved to sin, and knows we cannot chose Him on our own and He shows mercy by intervening to free us from worldly influences and convicts us of the truth of who we are as sinners and our need for Jesus as Savior and we respond to His intervention with faith.

BTW, you compared God to angels. I know you didn’t intend to be dishonoring to God, but it is. Angels do what God tells them to do. God doesn’t act like angels.

peace to you

I was giving an analogy. I wasn't saying he was or is an angel. I was giving a simple and child-like example with how I believe the Holy Spirit works.

Stop misconstruing my words. I have not dishonored God either by accident or intentionally .

EDIT:

Furthermore what you just said translates that GOD FORCES PEOPLE TO LOVE HIM BECAUSE WE CANNOT, AS INTELLIGENT FREE WILLED BEINGS MAKE THAT CHOICE ON OUR OWN.

That's foolhardy and you know it.

 

[Miss E]

Hello miss E,
A person whose will is bound still makes choices.
Choice is not the issue.
Everyone agrees that there are choices.
Are you aware Greg Boyd is an open theist?
I will work through his article later on.

Free Will enables us to make Choices. How can you take free will out of the equation?

Do you believe God forces His children to love him? Do you love your earthly father because he FORCES YOU TO LOVE HIM or do you CHOOSE ON YOUR OWN THAT YOU LOVE HIM?

Answer me that Sir.

 

[Miss E]

God sent his Son to die for us, the only way for us to be saved (i never denied this truth) and we have a choice whether we trust in Jesus that He did that for us and put our faith and trust in HIM, to FOLLOW HIM, or we choose not to. (it's not rocket science people!)

YES the holy spirit convicts us, but as I mentioned before, the Holy Spirit is the one 'knocking on our door' and only WE AS FREE-WILLED MAN/WOMAN have the capacity and freedom that God gave us to choose whether to OPEN THE DOOR.

 

[Yeshua1]

Now THAT'S a horse of a different color. If you are speaking in terms of the Holy Spirit convicting you of sin, and urging and nudging you to know Christ, then, THEN I will agree with you that we cannot do it on our own merit.

EDIT: But don't get me wrong, I still consider that our free will, since we have to choose to let the Holy Spirit help us choose God. Fair enough?

We can choose Jesus due to God first choosing us in the beloved!

 

[Yeshua1]

Free Will enables us to make Choices. How can you take free will out of the equation?

Do you believe God forces His children to love him? Do you love your earthly father because he FORCES YOU TO LOVE HIM or do you CHOOSE ON YOUR OWN THAT YOU LOVE HIM?

Answer me that Sir.

I am a child of wrath, one at war against God, who will not submit to Him, nor desire to walk in light but stay in dankness, so How much do I really do to get saved?

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes. Of course we have free will.

As much as fallen sin natures will allow for!

 

[Yeshua1]

Steven,
I've thought about how I would reply to your post here, and I've decided to make this my last reply in this thread.

This is the "Baptist theology and Bible Study" section...
As one who in convinced of the merits and truthfulness of the London Baptist Confession of 1644/46, I see no reason to limit my participation nor the offering of my thoughts about specific subjects to one section or another on a board that is dedicated to Baptists.

I believe and hold to Baptist distinctives, such as "believer's baptism", the autonomy of the local assembly and many others.
Unless the owner of this board or its admins mandates that "Calvinistic Baptists" are not allowed to voice their opinions of how the Lord accomplishes the salvation of souls outside of the "Calvinism versus Arminianism" section ( which is open to non-"Baptists" as well ), then I will continue to offer my thoughts in the other Baptist sections of this board, should I feel compelled to write them.

@Miss E asked a question, and I answered it to the best of my conscience.
If you find that offensive, then I am sorry for the offense...
But I am not sorry for how I view the Scriptures nor am I sorry about voicing those thoughts.

As always, I wish you well, sir, and may the Lord bless you with many gifts and remind you of His great grace towards you each and every day.

Why not the 1689 Confession?

 

[Yeshua1]

The Calvinist version of John 3:16 has God loved some of the world in this way, He gave His one of a kind Son so that everyone God causes to be believing in Him, shall not perish but have eternal life. Not how it reads.

The who so ever wills are those to whom God granted saving faith and enabled their wills!

 

[Miss E]

I am a child of wrath, one at war against God, who will not submit to Him, nor desire to walk in light but stay in dankness, so How much do I really do to get saved?

Trusting in Jesus as Lord is the way to get saved, which involves choosing to trust Him to begin with!!

 

[Yeshua1]

Trusting in Jesus as Lord is the way to get saved, which involves choosing to trust Him to begin with!!

Would someone in that described state accept Jesus as their Lord though?

 

[canadyjd]

I was giving an analogy. I wasn't saying he was or is an angel. I was giving a simple and child-like example with how I believe the Holy Spirit works.

Stop misconstruing my words. I have not dishonored God either by accident or intentionally .

EDIT:

Furthermore what you just said translates that GOD FORCES PEOPLE TO LOVE HIM BECAUSE WE CANNOT, AS INTELLIGENT FREE WILLED BEINGS MAKE THAT CHOICE ON OUR OWN.

That's foolhardy and you know it.

Miss E; It takes an enormous amount of intellectual dishonesty to chastise me to not misconstrue your words (I did not), and in the next breath misconstrue my words to mean something I clearly did not say.

You have demanded folks answer you directly. I have and you have ignored my questions to you and continually distort and misconstrue my answers.

I had hoped you were willing to have a respectful debate. I see now you only want to vent your opinions and ignore and attack all that disagree with you.

Thanks for the conversation

peace to you

 

[timtofly]

Would someone in that described state accept Jesus as their Lord though?

Yes, that is why it is free will. God did not determine that state. That state is just the normal separated from God State. God’s plan was to always send Himself to be the Atonement.

 

[just-want-peace]

The who so ever wills are those to whom God granted saving faith and enabled their wills!

So, if I read your comment correctly, you are saying that “WHOSOEVER”, really means “those I (God) decide will be saved.” IOW you have no choice in the matter. Is this your claim????
Just to be clear, you had NO choice in whether you would accept Christ or not; it was ALL His doing?
No question as to who SAVES, only whether YOU had the choice to accept or deny His offer.

Someone earlier compared this to a man in a pit. He cannot get out by himself, so he NEEDS help to get free. The man is a Jew, & another man, a gentile, throws a rope to him to climb out.
Pit-man sees that his potential rescuer is a gentile, so he refuses to give the gentile the satisfaction of “saving” a Jew.
It’s Pit-man’s choice to either be rescued or stand his ground - HIS CHOICE!! The offer of life is there, but Pit-man must grab the rope & start climbing if he wishes to be saved, & all the gentile’s rope pulling is futile if Pit-man chooses not to grasp the rope!!!!

 

[timtofly]

You cannot show one verse that says free will in terms of mans will. You cannot show any verses that teach it....you will offer verses that say ...choose, but that does not address the will.

Yet you have no verse that gives your pagan philosophy. If you did, it would be in condemnation of that philosophy.

The definition of free will is a choice that is free of pagan philosophy as an external factor. There is no fate or determinism that goes against one's ability to choose. It is fate and determinism that does not exist. Because they do not exist, then free will does. Because of those external non existing factors is the only reason that posters in this thread deny free will. They use pagan ideology to declare it is not real. The very definition of free will declares fate and determinism is not real. Perhaps that is not the way they look at it? But that is the basis for limited Atonement, even if they deny that fact. The Holy Spirit seals all sons of God (all mankind ever to be born) at conception. That is God choosing all, now the all can freely choose God as a response, without fate or determinism.

That experience plays a factor is what the Bible teaches. The majority of humans never hearing the Gospel once in their life. But that does not limit God. It only limits the individual. God says that the blood of all in darkness will be required at the hands of the church. The church failed the command, not fate or determinism. She failed because she listened to Satan and allowed fate and determinism to infiltrate her very doctrine and theology. The result is denying free will even exist.

The false teaching of fate and determinism is as old as the time of Noah. Free will is a modern construct used against reformed theology. It was never used against the ancient teaching of fate and determinism. God even uses human philosophy to correct His wayward church.

Free will is not defined as the ability to keep on sinning without consequences, which is the attempted false accusation against free will. Sinning without consequences is already the default position of natural human will, thus not free will. Free will is the ability to do something other than living in one's natural state. Why reformed theology condemns untold millions without free will, can only be Satan's deception in their own thinking and theology.

 

[Alan Gross]

It's a simple question with a VERY simple answer.

What do you think about free will? Do we have it? Or does God essentially control our minds and force us to love or hate Him?

I'm curious, we've been discussing this in another forum, but I wanted to see what the rest of the forum had to say on the subject.

For me, I believe we do. Other-wise. How in the WORLD would we be able to TRULY LOVE GOD. If God MADE us love him, decided for us that we will be saved, how is that truly Love?

I only have one sctipure and that is John 3:16:

"For God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have ever-lasting life."

WHOEVER BELIEVES. That implies a conscious decision must be made. Does it not?

Also, I do agree with the belief that God KNOWS who will make the choice to believe in Jesus and be saved and who will not. But just because He KNOWS THAT, doesn't mean He MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE TO FOLLOW HIM.

Please enlighten me with your views. I need to know I'm not alone on this (to me) elementary scriptural truth.

The issue is The Totally Depraved fallen sin nature of Adam, possessed by all his descendants.

The misinterpretation of a adjective, an adverb, a noun, or a pronoun, such as in the case of the uses of a word like, "all", are simply shortsighted and flesh filled.

These are 50 or so scriptures that presume to teach Universal Atonement, which don't.

We always try to have more scriptures that the opposing side, where they don't even know what they don't know, and other places they could be in error, also.:

Genesis 4:7
Genesis 6:3
Deuteronomy 5:29
Deuteronomy 8:2
Deuteronomy 30:19
Deuteronomy 32:29
Psalm 81:13-14
Psalm 125:3
Psalm 145:9
Proverbs 1:22-30
Isaiah 1:16-17
Isaiah 1:18-19
Isaiah 5:4
Isaiah 30:15
Isaiah 55:1
Isaiah 55:6
Isaiah 55:7
Jeremiah 4:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Ezekiel 18:30
Ezekiel 18:31-32
Ezekiel 24:13
Matthew 5:13
Matthew 11:21, 23
Matthew 23:37
Matthew 25:14-30
Luke 19:41-42
John 1:7
John 5:34
John 5:40
John 7:32
Acts 3:19
Acts 7:51
Romans 5:18
Romans 9:32
Romans 14:15
1 Corinthians 8:11
2 Corinthians 10:12
2 Corinthians 5:14-15
2 Corinthians 5:19
2 Corinthians 6:1
2 Corinthians 11:2-3
Philippians 2:12
1 Timothy 1:19-20
1 Timothy 2:4
1 Timothy 4:19
Titus 2:11-12
The Epistle to the Hebrews
Hebrews 2:9
Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 10:26-29
Hebrews 10:38
2 Peter 1:10
2 Peter 2:1
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:9
1 John 2:2
Jude 1:21
Revelation 2 and 3
Revelation 3:20

Every preacher should be worth their weight in The Cause of God and Truth, which title is also the book giving explanation to rightly divide these scriptures. Please see
Part 1 https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/gill/The_Cause_of_God_and_Truth_-_John_Gill.pdf