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Do we need to have the Holy Ghost to be saved?
- Thread starter ONENESS
- Start date
Originally posted by MEE:
This is also a frank admission by you MEE, that along with Frank and ONENESS, you cannot demonstrate the plan of salvation through the Book of Romans only, because you have to use your pet verses in the Book of Acts to support your heretical and cultic doctrines. Right?**Good post Brian!
DHK
Romans 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to REPENTANCE?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
--It is only the goodness of God that leads you to repentance; that will lead you to change your mind about your sinful way of life and turn you to God. But you despise the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering. Because of the hardness of your heart your treasure will be the wrath of God in the day of judgement. As long as you spurn the gospel, faith in his sacrificial blood, and faith alone, you keep adding to that wrath. "God is angry with the wicked every day." You already have "the revelation of the righteous judgement of God." You refuse his revelation to repent of your wickedness in including baptism as a part of your salvation. Repent of this wickedness. Salvation is by grace alone. Accept it by faith alone. God provided it by His grace. It was by grace He died on the cross. It was His grace He loved you and died for you. Accept this sacrifice by faith, lest you treasure up for yourself His wrath in the day of wrath.
Repentance is taught in Romans.
DHK</font>[/QUOTE]And so is baptism. I never said that it was not taught. I simply said that it never mentioned it for salvation.
DHK. Repentance, Water baptisim and the Holy Ghost are all taught in the book of Acts.Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
This is also a frank admission by you MEE, that along with Frank and ONENESS, you cannot demonstrate the plan of salvation through the Book of Romans only, because you have to use your pet verses in the Book of Acts to support your heretical and cultic doctrines. Right?**Good post Brian!
DHK</font>
I have already shown you that.
God bless
And yes we have our verses and you have yours. You stick to one book to support your beliefs, we use the bible as a whole to support ours.Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
This is also a frank admission by you MEE, that along with Frank and ONENESS, you cannot demonstrate the plan of salvation through the Book of Romans only, because you have to use your pet verses in the Book of Acts to support your heretical and cultic doctrines. Right?**Good post Brian!
DHK</font>
And quite frankly I use the verses you use just as much as you do.
Lorelei:
God revealed it was possible by telling us this in the scriptures. The Bible says the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius as it did on the apostles at the beginning. see Acts 2: 1-4 for details.
The 120 were not baptized in the Spirit as were the 12. See Acts 1: 26; 2:1. All is the antecedent of the apostles mentioned in verse 26.
God revealed it was possible by telling us this in the scriptures. The Bible says the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius as it did on the apostles at the beginning. see Acts 2: 1-4 for details.
The 120 were not baptized in the Spirit as were the 12. See Acts 1: 26; 2:1. All is the antecedent of the apostles mentioned in verse 26.
DHK:
My previous post was not mean spirted neither did it contain inuendo. It was truthful in every point! Each statement made has been evidenced in previous posts which were mentioned in the latest one. My challenge was a sincere one.
Your attempt to evade the truth by "poisoning the waters" does not shock or surprise me. This is a common debate technique used when one cannot defend his position with the toatlity of the harmonious evidence. Denominationalist do it all the time. I see you are no different.
You refuse to accept the whole new testament. Yet, the inspired David said ,it is the sum of thy words that are truth. Psalms 119:60. You then proceed to criticize me for doing the very thing God endorses.
Funny, you failed your own challenge. You have made more noise than a rusty gate in a wind storm over Ephesinas 2:8,9. Now, it is prove it from the book of Romans only! Which one(s) is it with you, Ephesians or Romans? Is this another one of those math problems. It is Eph. 2:8,9 only, and the book of Romans only! Again, one and one = two. If they are with something else, they are not alone.
Your hermeneutic reminds me of the dog that chased his own tail, he never gets it!
My previous post was not mean spirted neither did it contain inuendo. It was truthful in every point! Each statement made has been evidenced in previous posts which were mentioned in the latest one. My challenge was a sincere one.
Your attempt to evade the truth by "poisoning the waters" does not shock or surprise me. This is a common debate technique used when one cannot defend his position with the toatlity of the harmonious evidence. Denominationalist do it all the time. I see you are no different.
You refuse to accept the whole new testament. Yet, the inspired David said ,it is the sum of thy words that are truth. Psalms 119:60. You then proceed to criticize me for doing the very thing God endorses.
Funny, you failed your own challenge. You have made more noise than a rusty gate in a wind storm over Ephesinas 2:8,9. Now, it is prove it from the book of Romans only! Which one(s) is it with you, Ephesians or Romans? Is this another one of those math problems. It is Eph. 2:8,9 only, and the book of Romans only! Again, one and one = two. If they are with something else, they are not alone.
Your hermeneutic reminds me of the dog that chased his own tail, he never gets it!
DHK:
You asked for the plan of salvation in the book of Romans.
1. Romans 1:16. The gospel of Christ is God's power to save through faith. Romans 1;16,17.
2. All men. Romans 3:23;1:18,19.
How?
3. Through repentance. Romans 2:4.
4. Through Confession Romans 10:10.
5. Through Baptism. Romans 6:3-5.
6. Through the gift of God through Christ. Romans 6:23.
8. Through an obedient faith. Romans 16:26.
8. Through His resurrection. Romans 1:3-6.
9. Through his blood. Romans 5: 8-11.
You asked for the plan of salvation in the book of Romans.
1. Romans 1:16. The gospel of Christ is God's power to save through faith. Romans 1;16,17.
2. All men. Romans 3:23;1:18,19.
How?
3. Through repentance. Romans 2:4.
4. Through Confession Romans 10:10.
5. Through Baptism. Romans 6:3-5.
6. Through the gift of God through Christ. Romans 6:23.
8. Through an obedient faith. Romans 16:26.
8. Through His resurrection. Romans 1:3-6.
9. Through his blood. Romans 5: 8-11.
That's a nice list Frank. Actually it is a good start. Now take the references that you have given along with the topics listed and explain how each are necessary for salvation. For example, how does Rom.6:3-5 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? Or, how does Rom.16:26 teach that an obedient faith is necessary for salvation? Don't just give one of you infamous lists, Frank. Explain what you have to say.
DHK
DHK, first let me say that my belief, in God, is not "heretical or cultic!"Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MEE:
This is also a frank admission by you MEE, that along with Frank and ONENESS, you cannot demonstrate the plan of salvation through the Book of Romans only, because you have to use your pet verses in the Book of Acts to support your heretical and cultic doctrines. Right?**Good post Brian!
DHK</font>
The plan of salvation, for the NT Church, starts back from the beiginning of time. (John 1:1)
I don't understand why you want to do away with the book of Acts! I think it is a wonderful book. It is a book of history, as to how the NT Church was born and how the Jews and the Gentiles received salvation.
Romans, as well as the rest of the Bible, also has its place. One has to keep in mind that the Romans had already received salvation. They had repented, been baptized, and recieved the Holy Ghost and were on their way in trying to serve God to the best they knew. Yes, they needed "INSTRUCTIONS" as to what was right and wrong. This is where the Apostle Paul come to their rescue. They may not have been doing everything correctly, but they were still God's children.
I don't understand why you want to do away with water baptism or the infilling of the Holy Ghost. It is a must to at least get into the Bride of Christ.
DHK, I could sit here all day and you would not believe in what I'm trying to get across and that is up to you, as to what you believe, about the Bible, but don't refer to my belief, in the Word, as "heretical or cultic."
MEE
LoL...Sorry about that, I meant to say Romans....
DHK,Its not difficult at all.
No if any book in the bible explains salvation it is Acts. Pentecost was established before the Romans Road.
If you want to learn something from the past where do you go? Do we not go to the books where history is recorded? Why not go back to where it first started, and Do it the same way they did it?
Acts 2:37 Men and brethren WHAT SHALL WE DO?
Acts 2:38 Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and ye shall receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost.
The Question never changed. Why should the answer?
Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Romans 16:17 ¶ Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
What doctrine did they learn?
Acts 2:42 ¶ And they continued stedfastly in the APOSTLES DOCTRINE and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
What was the Apostles Doctrine? Peter had the keys to heaven so I think he had a better understanding than us all.
Acts 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
Acts 13:12 Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.
Acts 17:19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?
The book of Acts is all about Doctrine. And We get our doctrine from the source.
You can call believing,repenting,being baptized in the Name of Jesus Works if you want to. We call it faith. Everything we do is based on faith. We are saved by faith my friend. We also call it obedience Hebrews 5:9 lets us know: And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that OBEY HIM
I believed on Christ b/c of faith. I repented b/c of faith. I was baptized in the Name of Jesus b/c of faith. So it is faith that saves us. I cant boast b/c I believed, repented, got baptized etc. I,m Not the one that forgave my sins. I'm not the one that washed my sins a way. I'm not the one that filled me with the Holy Ghost. All of that was a gift. I accepted it by faith.
Salvation is a work? Did you mean to put in "NOT" in there somewhere?
You are wrong in your assumptions. Our salvation is not based on our baptism and tongues. Our salvation is based on our faith. Again, we believe b/c of faith, we repent b/c of faith, we are baptized b/c of faith
Acts is a historical book. It's about how the Spirit was dispensed to the believers in a permanant manner for the first time ever. That is why we can't expect to have the same experience that they did. Only those who lived under both the Old and New convenant experienced this transition.
Some want to take thier doctrine from this special time in history and ignore the books that were specifically written to instruct us! Sure the epistles were written to believing churches, but it was teaching them on all areas of life, as well as salvation. Does your church stop teaching or preaching salvation just because you all already know that stuff? Do you never talk about it again?
Paul even had to correct Peter in one of these epistles for teaching something wrong. Paul warned others about following false doctrines and cursed those who preached anything else. Now how could he tell others not to listen to the false teachers without making absolutely certain they understood the truth? The truth about salvation is taught in these books, why do you think it is not? When the Bible says it is "not of works" they didn't mean only to those who have already preformed the work of baptism. When the Bible says that "if Christ is in you, your spirit is alive", it didn't only mean those who received the Spirit after the work of baptism, but those who have the Spirit before baptism won't really be sealed with the Spirit until the day of redemption. These verses really mean what they say whether or not someone has been baptized.
The verses used to start this thread are:
Can we have the Spirit of God and NOT be saved?
Read those verses again.
He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal body. You are raised from the dead already, how can you then be buried after that?
We know that Cornelius was baptized after he had the Spirit, and according to these verses, IF the Spirit is in Him, he is saved!
~Lorelei
Some want to take thier doctrine from this special time in history and ignore the books that were specifically written to instruct us! Sure the epistles were written to believing churches, but it was teaching them on all areas of life, as well as salvation. Does your church stop teaching or preaching salvation just because you all already know that stuff? Do you never talk about it again?
Paul even had to correct Peter in one of these epistles for teaching something wrong. Paul warned others about following false doctrines and cursed those who preached anything else. Now how could he tell others not to listen to the false teachers without making absolutely certain they understood the truth? The truth about salvation is taught in these books, why do you think it is not? When the Bible says it is "not of works" they didn't mean only to those who have already preformed the work of baptism. When the Bible says that "if Christ is in you, your spirit is alive", it didn't only mean those who received the Spirit after the work of baptism, but those who have the Spirit before baptism won't really be sealed with the Spirit until the day of redemption. These verses really mean what they say whether or not someone has been baptized.
The verses used to start this thread are:
The question asked when starting this thread was this:
That we need the Spirit, we all agree. Let us turn this question around a bit.
Can we have the Spirit of God and NOT be saved?
Read those verses again.
Your Spirit is alive because of Righteousness. You can't be counted righteous without the covering of Christ's blood and repentance.
He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal body. You are raised from the dead already, how can you then be buried after that?
We know that Cornelius was baptized after he had the Spirit, and according to these verses, IF the Spirit is in Him, he is saved!
The Holy Spirit is the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance. Cornelius had that guarantee before baptism. I have that guarantee before baptism, we all have that guarantee before baptism. We are guaranteed our inheritance once the Spirit enters our body.
~Lorelei
That's a nice list Frank. Actually it is a good start. Now take the references that you have given along with the topics listed and explain how each are necessary for salvation. For example, how does Rom.6:3-5 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation? Or, how does Rom.16:26 teach that an obedient faith is necessary for salvation? Don't just give one of you infamous lists, Frank. Explain what you have to say.
DHK</font>[/QUOTE]
You See DHK Romans 6:3-5 does not have to teach that baptism is necessary b/c Jesus has already established this to the Apostles and the Apostles established it to us in Acts.
It kind of like repentance. The book of Romans never establishes that Repentance is necessary for salvation. But again the rest of the Bible does.
The book of Romans does not tell us that we need to be born again, but John Does. And the book of Acts shows us how we are to be born again. Something else Romans cannot do.
God bless
The Holy Spirit is the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance. Cornelius had that guarantee before baptism. I have that guarantee before baptism, we all have that guarantee before baptism. We are guaranteed our inheritance once the Spirit enters our body.
~Lorelei[/QUOTE]
How did Cornelius know that he had the Spirit of God before he was commanded to be baptized in the name of the Lord?
MEE
DHK:
The verses and the Bible interpret themselves. Which english word do you not understand? The scriptures provided, if one reads them, and that is a big if with you obviously,simply declare individual elements essential to salvation.
Furthermore, Romans 6:3-6 is a reference to baptism for the remission of sins.The Bible says,in Romans 6:3-6," 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." The old man of sin,vs. 6, has been put to death in baptism, vs.4, it is a type of baptism as Christ received, a covering up or overwhelming in the tomb, whereas we are covered or overwhelmed in water. The sinner is raised from the grave as Christ was in newness of life. Vs. 5,6. The sinner,according to verse 4, is buried IN and Raised from the Same element. The baptism of the spirit is not in view as this would make the Christian none of his because he would not have the spirit having been raised from him. Romans 8:9.The Bible says in Romans 8:9," 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Furthermore,if one makes an attempt to claim it is Holy Spirit baptism under consideration in 6:3-6, he must also along with the text accept the implications of his interpretation. This being he is NONE of his. I do not know anyone who claims to be a Christian would claim such. Moreover, this interpretaion would contradict numerous examples and passages that teach otherwise. Acts 8:30-40;8:12-18,I Pet. 3:21, John 3:3-5,Eph.5:26, Hebrews 10:22.
Finally, Romans 16:26 teaches that obedience and faith are connected. This is affirimed by many other passages of Bible such as John 3:36, Mat. 7:21-24 Luke 6:46,James 2:21-24;2:14. Faith that saves must be active. Hebrews 11:6. This principle has been the same since creation, no exceptions. A faith that does not obey is useless and cannot save. I Pet. 2:7;3:20, II Thes. 1:6-9. In Romans 16:26, Paul reminds us of the necessity of an obedient active faith. This is the only faith that saves. It is for all nations. vs. 26.
Jesus said, to believe , repent , confess and be baptized. The one who wishes to be saved will gladly recieve the word and obey it and be saved. Acts 2;38-41. The Bible teaches the one who fails to have an obedient faith will be lost. Romans 1:16,I Thes. 1:6-9. In Romans 16:26 the phrase for the obedience of faith is written as an Aortist Participle with the Passive Voice. This means something having been done. The Christians at Rome had become so by Having in the past expressed their faith in obedience to the gospel of Christ which includes baptism. Roms. 6:3-6. This participle phrase must also be interpreted by it's contextual meaning. It does not in itself indicate the time of the action. However, when the main verb is temporal, it usually signifies action prior to that of the main verb. Simply put, those who have an obedient faith are saved. They have received the gift of salvation. Romans 6:23.
The verses and the Bible interpret themselves. Which english word do you not understand? The scriptures provided, if one reads them, and that is a big if with you obviously,simply declare individual elements essential to salvation.
Furthermore, Romans 6:3-6 is a reference to baptism for the remission of sins.The Bible says,in Romans 6:3-6," 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." The old man of sin,vs. 6, has been put to death in baptism, vs.4, it is a type of baptism as Christ received, a covering up or overwhelming in the tomb, whereas we are covered or overwhelmed in water. The sinner is raised from the grave as Christ was in newness of life. Vs. 5,6. The sinner,according to verse 4, is buried IN and Raised from the Same element. The baptism of the spirit is not in view as this would make the Christian none of his because he would not have the spirit having been raised from him. Romans 8:9.The Bible says in Romans 8:9," 9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Furthermore,if one makes an attempt to claim it is Holy Spirit baptism under consideration in 6:3-6, he must also along with the text accept the implications of his interpretation. This being he is NONE of his. I do not know anyone who claims to be a Christian would claim such. Moreover, this interpretaion would contradict numerous examples and passages that teach otherwise. Acts 8:30-40;8:12-18,I Pet. 3:21, John 3:3-5,Eph.5:26, Hebrews 10:22.
Finally, Romans 16:26 teaches that obedience and faith are connected. This is affirimed by many other passages of Bible such as John 3:36, Mat. 7:21-24 Luke 6:46,James 2:21-24;2:14. Faith that saves must be active. Hebrews 11:6. This principle has been the same since creation, no exceptions. A faith that does not obey is useless and cannot save. I Pet. 2:7;3:20, II Thes. 1:6-9. In Romans 16:26, Paul reminds us of the necessity of an obedient active faith. This is the only faith that saves. It is for all nations. vs. 26.
Jesus said, to believe , repent , confess and be baptized. The one who wishes to be saved will gladly recieve the word and obey it and be saved. Acts 2;38-41. The Bible teaches the one who fails to have an obedient faith will be lost. Romans 1:16,I Thes. 1:6-9. In Romans 16:26 the phrase for the obedience of faith is written as an Aortist Participle with the Passive Voice. This means something having been done. The Christians at Rome had become so by Having in the past expressed their faith in obedience to the gospel of Christ which includes baptism. Roms. 6:3-6. This participle phrase must also be interpreted by it's contextual meaning. It does not in itself indicate the time of the action. However, when the main verb is temporal, it usually signifies action prior to that of the main verb. Simply put, those who have an obedient faith are saved. They have received the gift of salvation. Romans 6:23.
MEE,
Brian did make some comments that he would like this thread to stay on topic.
He spoke in tongues as a sign to the Jews, so that they would realize that the Spirit had indeed fallen on the gentiles. As Paul said, tongues were a sign to the Jews.
Can a person have the Spirit and not be saved?
Since you brought up tongues, answer this:
Can a person speak in tongues as led by the Spirit and not be saved?
According to those in this thread, they are saying that if you have the Spirit and speak in tongues but don't get baptized you still rot in hell. I don't understand how the Spirit could indwell someone who wasn't washed in the blood yet. Do you have a biblical explanation for this phenomena?
~Lorelei
Brian did make some comments that he would like this thread to stay on topic.
He spoke in tongues as a sign to the Jews, so that they would realize that the Spirit had indeed fallen on the gentiles. As Paul said, tongues were a sign to the Jews.
Now, back to the question I asked:
Can a person have the Spirit and not be saved?
Since you brought up tongues, answer this:
Can a person speak in tongues as led by the Spirit and not be saved?
According to those in this thread, they are saying that if you have the Spirit and speak in tongues but don't get baptized you still rot in hell. I don't understand how the Spirit could indwell someone who wasn't washed in the blood yet. Do you have a biblical explanation for this phenomena?
~Lorelei
