Do We Need to Leave Iraq Sooner Now?

And we will be in Iraq for the next sixty years, the administration's plan was to have a permanent military presence in Iraq, now we have it.

 

Joeseph,

Why must you always rresort to name calling? In your many posts, I feel no compassion coming from you nor respect for any other opinion than your own.

 

Yeah, I agree! All these terrorists attacks in the USA since the war started have me jittery too!

You gotta quit depending on the MSM for your news.

I had an aunt several years ago who listened to ABC, CBS, and NBC exclussively, and she honestly believed that if the Repubs won the house in '94 that her Social Security would be cut in half, and all her stock would become worthless.

If the only news you get is from these folks, it's gonna be hard to practice the admonitions in these verses. </font>[/QUOTE]There is more to fear than "terrorist attacks." The Patriot act is one thing. I don't get most of mine from the MSM - I use a variety of sources and make up my own mind. Please don't assume anything about me until you get to know me.

Tim

 

OK Tenor tell us about yourself.

 

Thsi thread has degenerated from its original topic. Most of us are off task and chasing rabbits. We won't change each others minds about this topic, so why don't we just agree to be friends and brothers and agree to disagree.

I also want to apologize for the harsh tone of my post.

Thanks, Tim

 

Yes, an idea. Terrorism is an idea, a mindset, a cause... No matter how many people devoted to a cause you kill, the cause primarily grows.

This is espeecially clear in Iraq. Since the beginning of the war, terrorism has grown - not diminished. I actually feel less safe at home now (since the beginning of the war)than I did before it began.

To quote, either Jefferson of Franklin (I Can't remember which) - " A man who is willing to give up freedom for security, deserves neither." </font>[/QUOTE]So if Terrorism is an idea and democracy is also an idea and freedom is an idea why does our presence in Iraq cause more New Terrorism that it does New Democracy and New Freedom?

Tenor, I don't think you have or can make a case that proves US Presence in Iraq is not successfuly containing and defeating Terrorism.

It's not the bullets that are causing the defeat.
It's the idea of democracy and freedom that's being grown from the seed in the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people.

 

Hardsheller, because over there they don't like the ideas of democracy and freedom. Our brother is right...kill terrorists and more will come up.

As for the "no terrorist attacks" in the United States since...well...that's hardly a foundation to stand on. I haven't had a Big Mac since last week...that doesn't mean I never will again.

 

I've often wondered if these same people that give Bush some kind of credit for there not being any terrorist attacks in the United States for the last four years gave Clinton credit because there were no terrorist attacks in the United States for eight years after the first WTC attack.

Just because there have not been any attacks over the last four years doesn't mean the government is doing a good job of protecting us from the terrorist, remember they plan their attacks for a long time, some of the 9/11 pilots had been training in the US for over six years in preparation for their attacks.

 

All men love freedom. If you deny that you simply don't understand how we were made in the first place.

That's what made America so Great. Our Founding Fathers understood this universal concept.

 

Your right all men love freedom, but freedom can not exist in a Islamic state, what we have created in Iraq is not freedom, but a new Islamic state that will join forces with the other nations in the Middle East to come back and bite us in the future.

Nation building experiments never work, lasting freedom only comes to those who, like our founding fathers, are willing to take the steps necessary to fight for their own freedom, it's not a gift that can be given to you by someone else, you have to fight to get it and to protect and keep it.

 

I should have clarified. The people in power over there don't love freedom (for others, but they do for themselves).

I don't know if all men do love freedom. The Bible tells us to be content where we are. If one is a slave or in prison, the Bible tells them to be content.

One could say the Fathers understood that "universal principle". Others could say they were traitors. Both may be true, I don't know.

 

But you would agree that you need a chance to fight for it?

And you would agree that without some outside help during the Revolutionary War we might not have prevailed?

 

There are always people in power who want to control others and take away their freedom. That's true in America as well as in Iraq.

But I'm not ready to say that all experiments in spreading democracy and freedom fail.

I think WWII proved that the opposite is true in Japan and in Germany.

 

I don't believe all experiments in spreading democracy and freedom fail either. It's this idea that terrorism is going to be eliminated that will fail. Kill terrorists and more spring up. It's been happening for thousands of years now.

 

But you would agree that you need a chance to fight for it?

And you would agree that without some outside help during the Revolutionary War we might not have prevailed? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, but praise the Lord our founding fathers were not Muslims. Freedom will never exist in an Islamic state!

 

But you would agree that you need a chance to fight for it?

And you would agree that without some outside help during the Revolutionary War we might not have prevailed? </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, but praise the Lord our founding fathers were not Muslims. Freedom will never exist in an Islamic state! </font>[/QUOTE]That's your opinion and you are free to hold it.

 

Yes, an idea. Terrorism is an idea, a mindset, a cause... No matter how many people devoted to a cause you kill, the cause primarily grows.

This is espeecially clear in Iraq. Since the beginning of the war, terrorism has grown - not diminished. I actually feel less safe at home now (since the beginning of the war)than I did before it began.

To quote, either Jefferson of Franklin (I Can't remember which) - " A man who is willing to give up freedom for security, deserves neither." </font>[/QUOTE]So if Terrorism is an idea and democracy is also an idea and freedom is an idea why does our presence in Iraq cause more New Terrorism that it does New Democracy and New Freedom?

Tenor, I don't think you have or can make a case that proves US Presence in Iraq is not successfuly containing and defeating Terrorism.

It's not the bullets that are causing the defeat.
It's the idea of democracy and freedom that's being grown from the seed in the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. </font>[/QUOTE]Point well taken.