Do you agree with this statement?

[Pastor Larry]

es He does and there is no purgatory, but when He forgives He forgets, so whose example should we follow? Yours, or His!

Where does it say he forgets? And how does an omnscient God forget anything? He doesn't. The Bible says that he does not remember it against us. That means that he does not hold it against us because he has forgiven it.

I am correct and justified in the premise wherein I am standing. You've placed too much emphasis on the temporal as if it holds precedence over the eternal.

I have not talked about temporal vs. eternal. You are the one who brought that up. But you are incorrect, and bordering on heresy by implying that God is not omniscient.

Scripture please?

All of it.

material and temporal are synonomous in this case of grace.

I am not talking about either.

It does mean we're sinless as far as our position in Christ is concerned. That is what God is concerned about, therefore I am not to be concerned about the devil's condemning me for past sins.

Absolutely. Now you are getting closer. God treats us as sinless. But that doesn't make us sinless. And it doesn't change the past.

That's the point: God treats us as if we had not sinned. But it doesn't change the facts. We did sin.

 

[Salamander]

Where does it say he forgets? And how does an omnscient God forget anything? He doesn't. The Bible says that he does not remember it against us. That means that he does not hold it against us because he has forgiven it.

Micah 7:19: He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

If that's not the sea of His forgetfulness, then... and IT IS!:thumbsup:

I have not talked about temporal vs. eternal. You are the one who brought that up. But you are incorrect, and bordering on heresy by implying that God is not omniscient.

I have done no such thing! You are being venomous, again.

All of it.

Did you "forget" Micah?

I am not talking about either.

Funny thing, there is no forgivenss apart from grace and you weren't talking about what the rest of us were.:laugh:

Absolutely. Now you are getting closer. God treats us as sinless. But that doesn't make us sinless. And it doesn't change the past.

God can only in His Omniscience treat us as sinless due to the Blood of Christ which washes us clean of all our sin. unless of course you want to maintain the Blood isn't enough to accomplish this.:tongue3:

The Blood of Christ changes everything, that is what remission of sin is all about!

That's the point: God treats us as if we had not sinned. But it doesn't change the facts. We did sin.

Yes, we have sinned, all of us, but God is in the process of sanctifying us into being sinless. If this were not true then this corruptable body would remain corrupted throughout all eternity. Guess what? It won't!

Also, of note! The penalty of death is changed into a conquered foe to the innerman. I have Victory in Jesus over sin. I didn't have it before! Wanna know why? I wasn't saved then, and I am saved now, TALK ABOUT CHANGING THE PAST!!!:godisgood:

 

[Aaron]

No...forgiveness is the releasing of a debt. You no longer hold someone indebted to their past transgressions.

Good answer (dad blame it!). In fact, this is the definition of forgiveness.

To know if one has from the heart forgiven another, all he needs to do is think back on the transgression. Does he start to feel angry, or does he feel tenderness? It's not without cause that the old proverb says "to forgive is Divine."

 

[saturneptune]

Good answer (dad blame it!). In fact, this is the definition of forgiveness.

To know if one has from the heart forgiven another, all he needs to do is think back on the transgression. Does he start to feel angry, or does he feel tenderness? It's not without cause that the old proverb says "to forgive is Divine."

That is a great way to tell if forgiveness is genuine. I also agree with Pastor Larry that the past is totally seperate from forgiveness. The past is past.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Micah 7:19: He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

If that's not the sea of His forgetfulness, then... and IT IS!

Please pardon my confusion, but I don’t see anything about forgetfulness here. I see God turning to sinners and having compassion on them, casting away their sins, and the like. But not forgiveness. I even read it Hebrew to make sure I wasn’t missing anything. Forgetfulness is not there.

I have done no such thing! You are being venomous, again.

Yes, you have done it. Think about it. Omniscience is knowing everything. Forgetfulness is not knowing everything (but forgetting something). So if God forgets our sins, he is, by definition, not omniscient. The claim that God is not omniscient is a direct contradiction to Scripture.

Did you "forget" Micah?

See above.

The Blood of Christ changes everything, that is what remission of sin is all about!

No it doesn’t. It doesn’t change the past. It enables God to justly release us from the debt that our past deserves.

Yes, we have sinned, all of us, but God is in the process of sanctifying us into being sinless. If this were not true then this corruptable body would remain corrupted throughout all eternity. Guess what? It won't!

I agree. But that has nothing to do with the past. If the past changed, then we would be sinless. There would be no need for forgiveness.

Also, of note! The penalty of death is changed into a conquered foe to the innerman. I have Victory in Jesus over sin. I didn't have it before! Wanna know why? I wasn't saved then, and I am saved now, TALK ABOUT CHANGING THE PAST!!!

But again, that didn’t change the past. Whatever you did back then is still done. The people that you hurt with your sin are still hurt, including you. Forgiveness removes the eternal consequences of the past. It means that God treats you as if you didn’t sin, even though you did.

 

[Salamander]

Please pardon my confusion, but I don’t see anything about forgetfulness here. I see God turning to sinners and having compassion on them, casting away their sins, and the like. But not forgiveness. I even read it Hebrew to make sure I wasn’t missing anything. Forgetfulness is not there.

Obviously you missed that when God forgets He forgives.

Yes, you have done it. Think about it. Omniscience is knowing everything. Forgetfulness is not knowing everything (but forgetting something). So if God forgets our sins, he is, by definition, not omniscient. The claim that God is not omniscient is a direct contradiction to Scripture.
See above.

You forget Omnipotence to forget what He's forgiven. Since my past is forgiven adn God requireth that which is past, my sins are always past, then it goes against the Omnipotence of God when you suggest he never foregts the very sins He's forgiven.

You can't have it both ways, God is Omniscient, He is also Omnipotent, and please don't forget, He's also Omnipresent.

No it doesn’t. It doesn’t change the past. It enables God to justly release us from the debt that our past deserves.
I agree. But that has nothing to do with the past. If the past changed, then we would be sinless. There would be no need for forgiveness.

Thus the power of God unto salvation accomplishes just that!:godisgood:

But again, that didn’t change the past. Whatever you did back then is still done. The people that you hurt with your sin are still hurt, including you. Forgiveness removes the eternal consequences of the past. It means that God treats you as if you didn’t sin, even though you did.

Since the eternal consequences are removed, then the past is forever changed.:godisgood:

I know I sinned, God knows I sinned, but He forgives those sins and since He is Omniscient, the only way He completely forgives sin is he casts those sins into the sea of forgetfulness, just as Micah said He would!

It's His sea and no one, not even God, will dredge up those sins in any wrath kindled.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Obviously you missed that when God forgets He forgives.

So the questions remain the same: 1) Where does the Bible say this? 2) How does an omniscient God forget anything?

You forget Omnipotence to forget what He's forgiven.

Omnipotence is the ability to do whatever is consistent with his nature. Omnipotence does not mean you can do nonsense ... like be omniscient and not no something.

Since my past is forgiven adn God requireth that which is past, my sins are always past, then it goes against the Omnipotence of God when you suggest he never foregts the very sins He's forgiven.

I am not suggesting it. I am declaring that a God who knows everything can't not know everything. It makes no sense.

You can't have it both ways, God is Omniscient, He is also Omnipotent, and please don't forget, He's also Omnipresent.

Yes, indeed.

Since the eternal consequences are removed, then the past is forever changed

Nope.

he casts those sins into the sea of forgetfulness, just as Micah said He would!

Where did Micah say this? I have searched Micah and can't find "forget" or any related words in Micah.

It's His sea and no one, not even God, will dredge up those sins in any wrath kindled.

This is true, but it doesn't mean that God ceases to be God.

So the questions remain:

1) Where does the Bible says God forgets?
2) How does a God who knows everything not know something?

 

[Scarlett O.]

Forgiveness is giving up the hope that the past will be any different.

Do you agree with this?

Nope. This is not forgiveness.

What you have described is the attitude of someone who is an emotional martyr, or who lives in painful past as a choice. Their attitude is, "Oh well, my past was crappy so my future is going to be that way, too.....I might just as well give up all hope for a fulfilling life."

Forgiveness is accepting the past as just that....the past. And not allowing any pains of the past to impair your future.

You may never forget the pain, but it doesn't control you anymore.

 

[PeterM]

1) Where does the Bible says God forgets?
2) How does a God who knows everything not know something?

To question #1: Isaiah 43:25; Jeremiah 31:31-34 (quoted in Hebrews 8:8-12); Hebrews 10:16-18.

I understand and interpret these passages in the legal sense... Is God aware of my sin? Of Course! However, he chooses not to remember them since the penalty has been paid by the Lord Jesus. The bottom line for me is that I have been declared "Innocent" rather than simply "Not Guilty" which is a huge distinction.

To question #2: One of the great mysteries of the Godhead... Mark 13:32.

 

[PeterM]

Nope. This is not forgiveness.

What you have described is the attitude of someone who is an emotional martyr, or who lives in painful past as a choice. Their attitude is, "Oh well, my past was crappy so my future is going to be that way, too.....I might just as well give up all hope for a fulfilling life."

Forgiveness is accepting the past as just that....the past. And not allowing any pains of the past to impair your future.

You may never forget the pain, but it doesn't control you anymore.

This is a great perspective from someone who obviously know what it means to be "forgiven!"

Thank you Saggy and PTL!

 

[Pastor Larry]

I understand and interpret these passages in the legal sense... Is God aware of my sin? Of Course! However, he chooses not to remember them since the penalty has been paid by the Lord Jesus. The bottom line for me is that I have been declared "Innocent" rather than simply "Not Guilty" which is a huge distinction.

This is correct. It is legal, not cognitive. God doesn't "forget" them. He doesn't hold them against us. This is the key distinction that Salamander is missing.

As for "the mysteries," I don't see it as a mystery. He knows everything, he never learned it and he won't forget it.

 

[PeterM]

This is correct. It is legal, not cognitive. God doesn't "forget" them. He doesn't hold them against us. This is the key distinction that Salamander is missing.

As for "the mysteries," I don't see it as a mystery. He knows everything, he never learned it and he won't forget it.

That comment was in regards to your second statement: How does a God who knows everything not know something?

In Mark 13:32, Jesus says, "But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." He is acknowledging that there is knowledge that He is not aware of. Many have explained that Jesus surrendered some aspects of His deity during His earthly ministry. To me that is a mystery... mysteries are not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Pastor Larry]

In Mark 13:32, Jesus says, "But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." He is acknowledging that there is knowledge that He is not aware of. Many have explained that Jesus surrendered some aspects of His deity during His earthly ministry. To me that is a mystery... mysteries are not necessarily a bad thing.

I don't think there is any doubt that the Logos did not reveal everything to the human nature of Jesus. That doesn't mean that the divine nature, the Logos, didn't know. That, of course, is something of a mystery to us since we are not accustomed to having two natures in one person.

 

[rbell]

Forgive the length; this is a true story...told of a granddad of one of my youth, at the granddad's funeral:

In the 1930's, the aforementioned was a young teen. His father mortgaged their farm in Elba, AL, and bought a mercantile. During the depression years, farmers would come "to town" on Saturday, and buy their goods. This father (father of the deceased) knew that when the crops came in, he would get paid. So, he would take their name, amount charged, put it on a slip of paper, and save it in a box.

Unfortunately, since it was the depression, many farmers couldn't or didn't pay, and the bank foreclosed on the farm, because they couldn't pay the mortgage.

One of the suppliers to this family mercantile--a Jewish man in his thirties, found out about their plight. He bought the deed to the farm, handed it to them, and said, "Pay me back when you can."

Over the next several years, this man did just that.

Fast forward: the depression ended. People once again were making money from crops. However, the mercantile still had a box of credit slips...money owed to them by people who at one time could not pay. Some could now pay, others couldn't; but the fact remained...there were many outstanding debts.

One day, the man took his sons down to the river, with the box full of credit slips. He built a fire and sat down with his boys.

He opened the box, and one by one took the each of the credit slips—records of unpaid debts—and handed each slip to his sons.

He said, “These are folks who owe us money. These are folks we live with and see. Many of them can afford to pay us now, and others cannot. Read the name out loud, what they owe, and then throw it in the fire, and forget about it.”

That act forever changed the life of the young boy, who led a wonderful, long life and died just a couple of years back.


That is forgiveness, lived out, IMO. This man, upon recognizing the great grace offered to him, took the opportunity when presented and extended the same grace.

In human terms of forgiveness, I can't think of a better example.

 

[Salamander]

This is correct. It is legal, not cognitive. God doesn't "forget" them. He doesn't hold them against us. This is the key distinction that Salamander is missing.

As for "the mysteries," I don't see it as a mystery. He knows everything, he never learned it and he won't forget it.

Since God cannot look upon sin without judging it, how else could He not hold us accountable for sins the Blood of Christ washed away?

I think you're really missing the point of sin being washed away and into what.

 

[Salamander]

To question #1: Isaiah 43:25; Jeremiah 31:31-34 (quoted in Hebrews 8:8-12); Hebrews 10:16-18.

I understand and interpret these passages in the legal sense... Is God aware of my sin? Of Course! However, he chooses not to remember them since the penalty has been paid by the Lord Jesus. The bottom line for me is that I have been declared "Innocent" rather than simply "Not Guilty" which is a huge distinction.

To question #2: One of the great mysteries of the Godhead... Mark 13:32.

Exactly, and thank you. How else does one choose not to remember something without forgetting it!:thumbsup:

 

[Pastor Larry]

Since God cannot look upon sin without judging it, how else could He not hold us accountable for sins the Blood of Christ washed away?

IT is a legal issue, forensic, that God accepts the payment of Christ for our sins. The reason they need to be paid for is because they really happened. They actually exist. If the past changed, then God would have killed Christ for something that didn't happen.

I think you're really missing the point of sin being washed away and into what.

Not at all. I think you don't konw what it means to be omniscient.

How else does one choose not to remember something without forgetting it!

To remember is to remember it against. IT is not speaking of cognition.

You still haven't answered the question: How does an omniscient God not know something?

 

[MB]

Forgiveness is giving up the hope that the past will be any different.

Do you agree with this?

It would indeed be hopeless to hope for the past to change. There is no rewind in life. The past is just that we shouldn't cry over spilled milk. Forgiveness is for the present . We need to forgive. Forgiveness is letting it go. We may never forget but we don't have to keep bringing it back to memory.
ia

 

[Salamander]

IT is a legal issue, forensic, that God accepts the payment of Christ for our sins. The reason they need to be paid for is because they really happened. They actually exist. If the past changed, then God would have killed Christ for something that didn't happen.

Now you've opened a can of worms!

One: I didn't know you were a leaglist, but thanks for revealing that for us.

Two: God required payment for sin that He paid Himself.

Three: Do you really want people to think God "killed" His own Son?

I find it to the contrary of what you suggest, he gave up the ghost, y'know, just like Scripture says he did!

Not at all. I think you don't konw what it means to be omniscient.

To remember is to remember it against. IT is not speaking of cognition.

Let's see this in the light in which we find it in the Bible: God chose to pay the sin debt Himself. He then washed our sins away by the Blood of Christ, Himself. He knows al things. He then chose to not remember our sins which means he chose to FORGET them. Need I say anything more?

If this isn't clear Bible teaching, then please explain how Jesus was as a Lamb slain before the foundations of the world and yet had to die 2000 years ago?

You still haven't answered the question: How does an omniscient God not know something?

In His Omnipotence he chooses not to remember them! Simply put: He forgets the ones He's forgiven!:godisgood:

 

[Pastor Larry]

One: I didn't know you were a leaglist, but thanks for revealing that for us.

When it comes to justification there are two kinds of people: Those who are legalists and those who are going to hell. Justification is always a legal, forensic issue. It means that God makes a legal declaration about our standing before him. It has nothing to do with rules or laws and keeping them for salvation or sanctification.

Two: God required payment for sin that He paid Himself.

Yes, a great book on this is Stott's The Cross of Christ. Well worth your time.

Three: Do you really want people to think God "killed" His own Son?

Absolutely. Isaiah says "It pleased the Father to crush his Son." That is a reference to his death, as all of Isaiah 53 says.

I find it to the contrary of what you suggest, he gave up the ghost, y'know, just like Scripture says he did!

He did give up the ghost. That's not contrary at all.

He knows al things. He then chose to not remember our sins which means he chose to FORGET them. Need I say anything more?

Yes. Tell us how a God who knows everything forgets something. And tell us where Scripture says what you say. (These two questions have yet to be answered though I asked them many times.)

If this isn't clear Bible teaching, then please explain how Jesus was as a Lamb slain before the foundations of the world and yet had to die 2000 years ago?

Not sure what the relevance is or the confusion.

In His Omnipotence he chooses not to remember them!

That's doesn't answer the question. How does someone who knows everything not know something? And where does Scripture say that God forgets our sin?

Simply put: He forgets the ones He's forgiven!

Where does Scripture say this?