Do you agree with this statement?

[PeterM]

Yes, a great book on this is Stott's The Cross of Christ. Well worth your time.

It may be worth noting that JRW Stott is an Annihilationist.

 

[Salamander]

When it comes to justification there are two kinds of people: Those who are legalists and those who are going to hell. Justification is always a legal, forensic issue. It means that God makes a legal declaration about our standing before him. It has nothing to do with rules or laws and keeping them for salvation or sanctification.

Oh, OK, I see you believe the Judgement seat and the GWT are in a courtroom.:laugh:

I'm a child of God, if anything, I am a libertarian, not a legalist.

Yes, a great book on this is Stott's The Cross of Christ. Well worth your time.

I'll stick to precepts and principles from the Bible.

Absolutely. Isaiah says "It pleased the Father to crush his Son." That is a reference to his death, as all of Isaiah 53 says.

Nope, it pleased God to bruise him, God crushed Jesus for sin, this only relates to his body and not his death. he gave up the ghost and was not "killed".

He did give up the ghost. That's not contrary at all.

It's quite conrary to what you have said that God "killed" him.

Yes. Tell us how a God who knows everything forgets something. And tell us where Scripture says what you say. (These two questions have yet to be answered though I asked them many times.)

When God chooses to not remember, he chooses to forget. He is God.

Not sure what the relevance is or the confusion.

Um, conclusion, not cofusion.

An action of God does not always fall into the realm of anything to do with specific time as Jesus being as a Lamb slain has no subjectivity to the timing of His death. Just as God chooses to forget what He chose not to remember. He forgets the past sins in forgivenesses. He cannot lie. If he chose to not forget what He chose not to remember, then there would be due suspicion he could lie. He cannot, nor will not.

That's doesn't answer the question. How does someone who knows everything not know something? And where does Scripture say that God forgets our sin?

Where does Scripture say this?

It suffices although you must have it spelled out for you.

Now answer how it is smoking is considered a sin when it is never even mentioned in Scripture? You can't, except to apply a precept.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Oh, OK, I see you believe the Judgement seat and the GWT are in a courtroom.

What? That doesn’t even make any sense.

I'm a child of God, if anything, I am a libertarian, not a legalist.

You clearly have no idea what the conversation is even about. When I say that justification is forensic or legal, we mean that it is not something you earn. It is by grace alone through faith alone. It is a declaration from God that you are viewed as righteous. It is the doctrine of imputation. The opposite of forensic justification is the Catholic doctrine of righteousness where righteousness is infused, not imputed. So learn what you are talking about before making fun of those who already know.

I'll stick to precepts and principles from the Bible.

Then you will greatly benefit from Stott’s work. He later became an annihilationist, though I don’t think he was when he wrote the book. Stott’s book is as thoroughly biblical a book on the atonement as there is. It is rather lengthy and won’t make good bed time reading for most, however. You will actually have to think when you read it.

Nope, it pleased God to bruise him, God crushed Jesus for sin, this only relates to his body and not his death. he gave up the ghost and was not "killed".

You are wrong. Isaiah 53 is about his death. The bruising was the killing.

Um, conclusion, not cofusion.

No, confusion. You made a statement about Jesus being slain from the foundation of the world and yet dying 2000 years ago. I am questioning why you are confused about that. It has no relevance to this discussion.

Just as God chooses to forget what He chose not to remember. He forgets the past sins in forgivenesses. He cannot lie. If he chose to not forget what He chose not to remember, then there would be due suspicion he could lie. He cannot, nor will not.

So if he chooses to forget something in your terms, that means he doesn’t know it anymore. That means he is not omniscient, which is false doctrine. Is that what you believe? Do you really believe that God does not know everything?

It suffices although you must have it spelled out for you.

You have yet to quote any Scripture in actual support of your claim. You cited Micah 7 which has nothing to do with forgetting, as you can tell from reading the verse.

Now answer how it is smoking is considered a sin when it is never even mentioned in Scripture?

I wouldn’t say it is a sin, necessarily.

Scripture doesn’t spell out every single sin. But we are not talking about sin. We are talking about something very clear. The Bible says that God knows everything. You say he doesn’t. Who should we believe?

How does a God who knows everything forget something? Where does Scripture say that God forgets things?

In the end, you can see how devoid of Scripture your posts are. You are totally clueless, it sounds like.

 

[Pastor Larry]

It may be worth noting that JRW Stott is an Annihilationist.

I think that was after he wrote The Cross of Christ. Nonetheless, The Cross of Christ remains among the best books on the atonement that is available.

 

[Beth]

I like that

No, the past isn't going to be any different whether you forgive or not. Forgiveness is, in part, determining that the future will not be based on the past because you make a promise to treat others like God has treated you.

I like this...that would be my opinion as well. If the Lord treated ME in the future the way I have acted in the past, well.....I'm sunk!:tonofbricks: Thank the Lord He has justified me through His Atoning Sacrifice!

I find the challenge to love and forgive unconditionally, even our enemies!

Lu 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

 

[Salamander]

What? That doesn’t even make any sense.

release thyself from thy chains of your mindset, and it will.

You clearly have no idea what the conversation is even about. When I say that justification is forensic or legal, we mean that it is not something you earn. It is by grace alone through faith alone. It is a declaration from God that you are viewed as righteous. It is the doctrine of imputation. The opposite of forensic justification is the Catholic doctrine of righteousness where righteousness is infused, not imputed. So learn what you are talking about before making fun of those who already know.

Um, isn't the science of forensics used where something is dead! I am quickened by the Spirit and washed clean in the Blood of Christ. Jesus is alive!

Then you will greatly benefit from Stott’s work. He later became an annihilationist, though I don’t think he was when he wrote the book. Stott’s book is as thoroughly biblical a book on the atonement as there is.

Better than the Bible, huh?

It is rather lengthy and won’t make good bed time reading for most, however. You will actually have to think when you read it.

I'll stick with the Bible.

You are wrong. Isaiah 53 is about his death. The bruising was the killing.

The you're saying that the Bible is wrong where Jesus gave up the ghost! You cannot have both.

No, confusion. You made a statement about Jesus being slain from the foundation of the world and yet dying 2000 years ago. I am questioning why you are confused about that. It has no relevance to this discussion.

Did not, I said what the Bible states, that Jesus was AS a Lamb slain, learn the difference.

So if he chooses to forget something in your terms, that means he doesn’t know it anymore. That means he is not omniscient, which is false doctrine. Is that what you believe? Do you really believe that God does not know everything?

He knows everything He chooses to remember. That exemplifies His Omniscience coupled with His Omnipotence. You set God at odds with Himself by denying this fact.

You have yet to quote any Scripture in actual support of your claim. You cited Micah 7 which has nothing to do with forgetting, as you can tell from reading the verse.

Error. You had best take the context into consideration or you will continue to trip over the precept.

I wouldn’t say it is a sin, necessarily.

The Holy Ghost showed me it was sin in my life. Are you calling Him a liar, or are you saying it was only a sin for me and it's alright for others?

Scripture doesn’t spell out every single sin. But we are not talking about sin. We are talking about something very clear. The Bible says that God knows everything. You say he doesn’t. Who should we believe?

As it does not "spell out" every precept either.

Show ONCE where I 've said "God doesn't know everything"?

How does a God who knows everything forget something? Where does Scripture say that God forgets things?

In the end, you can see how devoid of Scripture your posts are. You are totally clueless, it sounds like.

Isaiah 43:25 says: "I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake,
and will not remember thy sins." Now apply I John 1:9 and ask yourself this question; "How is it God cleanses me of something He doesn't forget, although He forgave me?"

Remember:1: to bring to mind or think of again ; to keep in mind for attention or consideration; to retain in the memory; to convey greetings from

Now apply the opposite to these definitions by the word "not".

Forget: to lose the remembrance of : be unable to think of or recall; to treat with inattention or disregard; to disregard intentionally; to cease remembering or noticing <forgive and forget>

I think you're too caught up in what you've said and are to prideful to ADMIT YOUR MISTAKE.

The dictionary disagrees with your premise as much as the Bible does.

To choose not to remember is to choose to forget, or will you continue to argue to the contrary and keep looking so foolish?

 

[Salamander]

I see larry has nothing more to say concerning God forgetting what He chose not to remember.:sleep:

 

[Pastor Larry]

Um, isn't the science of forensics used where something is dead!

Not at all. You are once again demonstrating that you don’t know what you are talking about. Forensic deals with legal matters.

I am quickened by the Spirit and washed clean in the Blood of Christ. Jesus is alive!

So am I. Irrelevant to this though.

Better than the Bible, huh?

No. But the Bible isn’t a book about the atonement, per se.

I'll stick with the Bible.

Stott will help you understand it, and will deepen your love for Christ and what he did for you.

The you're saying that the Bible is wrong where Jesus gave up the ghost!

No, once again, you simply don’t know what you are talking about.

Did not, I said what the Bible states, that Jesus was AS a Lamb slain, learn the difference.

I know what you said. It simply doesn’t make any sense in this conversation.

He knows everything He chooses to remember. That exemplifies His Omniscience coupled with His Omnipotence. You set God at odds with Himself by denying this fact.

the Bible teaches that God knows everything. You teach he does not. You are wrong.

Error. You had best take the context into consideration or you will continue to trip over the precept.

I read Micah 7 in Hebrew this week again, confirming my point that forgetting is not mentioned in that verse. It is not in the context.

The Holy Ghost showed me it was sin in my life. Are you calling Him a liar, or are you saying it was only a sin for me and it's alright for others?

I am not calling him a liar. I had a guy tell me one time that the Holy Spirit told him it was okay to live with his girlfriend. So it is quite possible to mistake your own thinking for the Holy Spirit. Furthermore, yes there are some things that are sin for one person and not for another, as Romans 14 makes clear. As for smoking, I think it is silly and destructive. I tend to think it is sin because of its addictive nature. But I won’t die on that hill. But again, off topic.

Show ONCE where I 've said "God doesn't know everything"?

Here’s two and I could cite a lot more. It is in virtually every post you have put in this thread: “He knows everything He chooses to remember.” “In His Omnipotence he chooses not to remember them! Simply put: He forgets the ones He's forgiven.”

Isaiah 43:25 says: "I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Now apply I John 1:9 and ask yourself this question; "How is it God cleanses me of something He doesn't forget, although He forgave me?"

Because God not remember our transgressions means that he does not remember them against it.

I think you're too caught up in what you've said and are to prideful to ADMIT YOUR MISTAKE.

Nice personal attack. It seems your only recourse when you have no Bible and no apparent understanding of the issues involved.

To choose not to remember is to choose to forget, or will you continue to argue to the contrary and keep looking so foolish?

Knowing what one is talking about doesn’t make them look foolish. This is a case where Scripture simply doesn’t support you. Badgering me about it won’t change that.

I see larry has nothing more to say concerning God forgetting what He chose not to remember

There’s lots more to say, but it gets boring saying the same thing over again and you not giving any answers. The fact remains: 1) A God who knows everything cannot not know something. That means he does not forget. 2) Scripture does not say that God forgets our sins as you say he does. So you contradict the clear teaching of Scripture about the nature of God, and have created a god that doesn’t exist. It is called idolatry. I am not going to keep going in circles with you. The truth is what I have said. YOu have yet to make a biblical argument about it. You should devote more time to understanding who God is and what he did for you, and less time making personal attacks against people who have.

 

[Salamander]

OK, Larry so you cannot receive the definitions found in a dictionary and what the Bible says verses what you think, that is conclusive.

All you like to do is create some level of contention and then act upon it without using any common sense in the matter.:sleep:

 

[Pastor Larry]

OK, Larry so you cannot receive the definitions found in a dictionary and what the Bible says verses what you think, that is conclusive.

Dictionary definitions depend on the use. Furthermore, what is more important are theological definitions and theological meaning. You are unable to deal with that. Rather than quote Scripture, you quote a dictionary ... of English no less. That's revealing.

All you like to do is create some level of contention and then act upon it without using any common sense in the matter.

Actually, I am the one using common sense ... the common sense of looking at the Scripture to see what God is like rather than looking at the dictionary.

So the question remains:

1) How does a God who knows everything not know something? He can't choose to not know somethign and still know everything. Talk about common sense ... use it here.

2) Where does Scripture say that God forgets our sins in the way that you say he does?

Until you answer these two questions, there is no resolution. Dodging them won't help.

 

[Salamander]

1st thing is you're not God and God chooses what He remembers and what He does NOT remember. It cannot be made any simpler for your inquisitive mind

2nd is the not remembering is forgetting. Care to explain how it is anything different?:laugh:

A dictionary is a tool used to define words found in the Bible. It is not like you would paint this picture as if the Bible is somehow disassociated with word definitions.:tongue3:

 

[Pastor Larry]

1st thing is you're not God

At least we agree on that.

and God chooses what He remembers and what He does NOT remember.

This is not an answer. How does a God who knows all things choose not to know something? That is impossible. He can forget, but then he no longer knows everything. Surely you can see the contradiction there can't you?

It cannot be made any simpler for your inquisitive mind

It has nothing to do with simplicity. It has to do with revelation and the nature of God. God has revealed himself as a God who knows everything. You are saying that God doesn't know everything because he forgets it. Surely you can see the contradiction there can't you?

2nd is the not remembering is forgetting. Care to explain how it is anything different?

I already did. It is to not use it against for judgment. If you study forgiveness in the Bible you will see that that is what it is.

Think about this. We are commanded to forgive as God in Christ forgave us. So if God's forgiveness includes forgetting, how can we do that? We will likely never forget when people hurt us severely. Yet we can "not remember it to use it against them."

I think you simply haven't thought very hard about the nature of God and the meaning of forgiveness.

A dictionary is a tool used to define words found in the Bible.

It is actually a tool to define words found everywhere. But when dealing with theological terms and theological ideas, we need to use a theological dictionary. A dictionary was not written to reveal the nature of God. The Bible was, and we need to define words according to Bible usage. You are going about it backwards. You are starting with the dictionary and then going to the Bible. Start with the Bible.

 

[Salamander]

At least we agree on that.

You say this and then:

This is not an answer. How does a God who knows all things choose not to know something? That is impossible. He can forget, but then he no longer knows everything. Surely you can see the contradiction there can't you?

God obviously has some power men do not, wouldn't you agree?

It has nothing to do with simplicity. It has to do with revelation and the nature of God. God has revealed himself as a God who knows everything. You are saying that God doesn't know everything because he forgets it. Surely you can see the contradiction there can't you?

No contradiction when I see through a glass darkly which some see nothing at all.

I already did. It is to not use it against for judgment. If you study forgiveness in the Bible you will see that that is what it is.

thus the reason God forgets what He's forgiven. he's God!

Think about this. We are commanded to forgive as God in Christ forgave us. So if God's forgiveness includes forgetting, how can we do that? We will likely never forget when people hurt us severely. Yet we can "not remember it to use it against them."

we as men live in a state of forgiving the tresspass eventually count things as this as but dung. We flush it out of our memories. Try applying the grace of God that allows you to do this and everytime the devil brings it back to mind? Flush again!:godisgood:

I think you simply haven't thought very hard about the nature of God and the meaning of forgiveness.

You keep running into this raodblock which i have avoided and moved on past it. may I suggest you do the same?

It is actually a tool to define words found everywhere. But when dealing with theological terms and theological ideas, we need to use a theological dictionary. A dictionary was not written to reveal the nature of God. The Bible was, and we need to define words according to Bible usage. You are going about it backwards. You are starting with the dictionary and then going to the Bible. Start with the Bible.

I started with the Bible and sought out the definitions which aptly coincide with each passage we mentioned. They concur with one another.:godisgood:

 

[Pastor Larry]

=God obviously has some power men do not, wouldn't you agree?

Yes, but that doesn't include the power to be nonsensical. Either he knows everything or he doesn't. Which is it?

No contradiction when I see through a glass darkly which some see nothing at all.

There is a contradiction. You simply don't see it.

You keep running into this raodblock which i have avoided and moved on past it. may I suggest you do the same?

Which roadblock is that?

I started with the Bible and sought out the definitions which aptly coincide with each passage we mentioned. They concur with one another.

No you didn't. You created a contradiction by applying a definition of "forget" that is human, not divine.

So you still haven't answered the questions.

1) How does a God who knows everything not know something?
2) Where does the Bible teach what you teach?

You keep dodging this, but it doesn't go away.

 

[Salamander]

Yes, but that doesn't include the power to be nonsensical. Either he knows everything or he doesn't. Which is it?

Then you ultimately disagree with Is 55:8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

There is a contradiction. You simply don't see it.

Said the blind man with a tear.:laugh: No, there's something you don't see. It's called God's way of forgetting what he's chosen not to remember.

Which roadblock is that?

The mental one.

No you didn't. You created a contradiction by applying a definition of "forget" that is human, not divine.

No, I applied a human contradiction to that which is Divine and I received enlightenment concerning what God chooses not to remember he chooses to forget it.

So you still haven't answered the questions.

1) How does a God who knows everything not know something?

define "everything", but don't forget to include everything God chose not to remember and see where that gets you!:laugh:

2) Where does the Bible teach what you teach?

Micah 7 for starters.

You keep dodging this, but it doesn't go away.

Then it is up to you to wipe the mote out of your eye.:thumbs:

 

[Pastor Larry]

Then you ultimately disagree with Is 55:8For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

No I don't. That verse is irrelevant to this. Besides that is about turning from sin and seeking God.

No, there's something you don't see. It's called God's way of forgetting what he's chosen not to remember.

Then show me. I have asked you two simple questions: 1) How does a God who knows everything not know something? 2) Where does the Bible say what you said?

You haven't answered either.

The mental one.

That doesn't even make sense.

No, I applied a human contradiction to that which is Divine and I received enlightenment concerning what God chooses not to remember he chooses to forget it.

That doesn't either.

define "everything", but don't forget to include everything God chose not to remember and see where that gets you!

Everything is everything. How does God know everything and not know something?

Micah 7 for starters.

We have already seen that Micah 7 doesn't talk about forgetting. (Read it and see for yourself.)

Then it is up to you to wipe the mote out of your eye

Just answer the questions already.

 

[Dr. Timo]

Forgiveness

Forgiveness is getting the hope that things can be different with the Lord in charge!!!:laugh: :thumbs:

 

[EdSutton]

Forgiveness is getting the hope that things can be different with the Lord in charge!!!:laugh: :thumbs:

Welcome to the Baptist Board. :wavey:

Ed