DO YOU BELIEVE IN SPEAKING IN TONGUES

[dfd2]

Don, you told shy one, "By the way, it's obvious from your post that you're not a Baptist. I imagine someone will be moving this thread, and your other one, to the "Other Religions" forum pretty soon."

All Im trying to show is that if you held to the Baptist belief of individual soul liberty than you wouldnt have said that. I dont know if shy one is a Baptist or not, but to say that just because he holds to a beleif that you, and I, dont hold to than he isnt Baptist and should be put into Other religions isnt upholding Baptist thought.

I would like to have said, "shy one, I dont agree with what you are saying, but holding to soul liberty as a Baptist ill let you beleive your own interpretation."

To hold to soul liberty, we have to allow for the fact that other Baptist are going to believe and interprete scriputres differently.

 

[John Wells]

shy one,

You have been shown that speaking in "tongues" using glossolalia is unscriptural, to which you have defended its use with experience. That is also unscriptural. I recommend reading "Counterfeit Revival" by Hank Hannegraaf where he deals with how one is duped, using peer pressure, repetition, and auto-suggestion to "acquire" glossolalia. Emotions + experience - biblical truth = danger!

[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

[Don]

dfd2, this thread is about speaking in tongues.

Baptist distinctives are what Baptists practice that makes them distinctive from other denominations; it describes the things Baptists do, but not the things Baptists don't do.

Your offense with me has been noted. However, you've missed one important fact about soul liberty: It does NOT give us the "liberty" to practice, support, or otherwise encourage incorrect doctrine or teachings.

IF sign gifts are still for today; that is a topic that has been discussed in excruciating detail in other threads, and has nothing to do with Shy One's original question, which is the point of this thread. In fact, I'm still studying out whether sign gifts are for today or not, and have yet to come to a "I'll never change my mind about this again" conclusion.

What should be discussed here is their proper use, especially the use of "speaking in tongues."

The original question was, "Do you believe in speaking in tongues?"

My question to Shy One: The way I understand "prayer language" is that it is a language between you and God, mostly used so that Satan cannot understand what you are talking about. However, I need to ask: can the angels understand this language?

[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: Don ]

 

[Mike McK]

Hi, Chick,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> If they are "for today", and you don't do it, then why? Is it just for some and not others?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I tend to believe that they aren't for everyone. Some people who believe in speaking in tongues believe that it's a gift for everyone and that all you have to do is "claim" you gift but I'm not sure that can be backed up with scripture.

The bottom line (for me, anyway) is that if God wants me to speak in tongues I'm sure He'll take care of it. Until then, It's really not an issue.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> When it is done "right", according to you, what purpose does it serve? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not according to me, it's according to the guidelines laid out in the Bible. Trust me, if the things we do in the church were according to me, we'd all be in a lot of trouble.

As I understand those guidelines, they are:

1. Must line up with the Bible

2. Must not be disruptive to the corporate service

3. There must be an interpretation (by someone other than the person doing the speaking)

It's supposed to be edifying to the church but, all too often, it's just used to advance someone's pet theology and very often all three of these guidelines are ignored.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Please spell out the one example you consider valid... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In all fairness, it was ten years ago and I'm sure that you could shoot holes in it but that's not the point.

Like I said this was only one instance in thirteen years so, obviously, I'm not the best spokesman for the pro-tongues side.

It's a peripheral issue and I've heard good arguments on both sides.

If someone wants to believe that it's for today, fine. If somoene doesn't, that's OK, too.

 

[shy one]

smoke_eater . thanks for not putting tongues down you are right if God wants you speak in tongues he will give it if you don't doubt .

 

[Chet]

Hi Shy One,

Tell me why you believe you are certain that it is God that gives you the ability to speak in tongues.

Then tell my why you are certain that it is Biblical tongues.

Chet

 

[shy one]

chet , I read the book of acts and corithians , that is good enough for me also all good things come from God , and every thing Ihave expieranced from attending a touges believing church has been good .

 

[Chet]

Hi Shy One, Thanks for your reply.

How do you know for certain that what you experienced is given to you from God?

How do you know for certain that all good things come from God?

How do you know that what you experience is good?

And how do you know for certain that what you experience is the same tongues found
within the book of Acts and Corinthians?

And if Acts and Corinthians are good enough for you, why do you need to experience
tongues?

Chet

 

[Joey M]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> chet , I read the book of acts and corithians , that is good enough for me also all good things come from God , and every thing Ihave expieranced from attending a touges believing church has been good . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Shy one, I don't mean this as harsh, but maybe you should read acts and Corintians again. The gift of tounges was for a sign. The Bible says the Jews require a sign. And again we find that the Bible says that tounges was for a sign. A sign for who? A sign for the Jews. Then some say then why did Cornielus (spelt wrong) speak in tounges, he was a gentile? He spoke in tounges as a sign to the Jews that were there that the gentiles could recieve the Holy Ghost also. Paul was not admonishing the Corintians for there use of tounges, he was rebuking them. There were many Jews in the Curch of Corinth, but they were not biblical in thier use of tounges. So if the gift of tounges were still around, which it is not, then it would not be for you and I anyway, but for the Jews. The Jews seek after a sign, but the Gentiles after righteousness. and Tounges are for a sign. I would suggest that you get out a good concordance and go through it in study of tounges and also look up what I said about the Jews require a sign. and Tounges being for a sign.


God speed.

 

[John Wells]

shy one,

You say you get your justification from Acts and 1,2 Corinthians. Then I assume you miraculously speak in known languages which you have never studied . . . they just come to you from the Holy Spirit. If you do that, it could indeed be biblical tongues. But if you are speaking glossolalia then it is not biblical no matter how much you desire it to be. Speaking in unintelligible sounds never happened in biblical accounts.

 

[Nickleus]

Well, to be honest kiddies I was brought up in a Pentecostal home and church. However, i found so many fakings and dissapointments in the system that I am now comsidering myself to be a Baptist. The reasons for the switch is two-fold. The first one was the previousely stated. The second reason, is that I really trust Jack Hayford. I believe, that when i look into his eyes he is really telling the truth all through his messages. Not that he hgas convinced himself, but that he REALLY knows that he is speaking on the behalf of God as a witness to others. Right now, I'm working on just being a good Christian, and the whole Pentecostal rave is not helping me very much. If anyone watches the "SuperChannel" you probably know what I mean. If you havent noticed, I am unable to attend a Baptist church, so I get my information and guidance from Hayford. You should all check him out sometime. He doesn't even bother with toungs.

 

[Phillip]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Wells:
shy one,

You say you get your justification from Acts and 1,2 Corinthians. Then I assume you miraculously speak in known languages which you have never studied . . . they just come to you from the Holy Spirit. If you do that, it could indeed be biblical tongues. But if you are speaking glossolalia then it is not biblical no matter how much you desire it to be. Speaking in unintelligible sounds never happened in biblical accounts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very well put Mr. Wells. I have been following your posts for quite some time and am really impressed with your grasp of the scripture and Baptist doctrine. Your answers have always been an inspiration to me and I thank you for shedding light on difficult matters such as this.

It is odd that Pentecostal groups tend to use Corinthians as their excuse for using such practices when it is so obvious that Paul is correcting the church of misused practices. Paul even chides the church for going as far as making statements that their words are coming from the Holy Spirit and some had even gone as far as saying Jesus was not a diety. Why is Corinthians so hard to understand when it is so clear? I feel Paul actually laid down the laws of "tongues" to diplomatically end its use--because we never hear any more of the use of tongues in the Bible. Plus, Acts is SO clear that it is not even funny. The fact that tongues are NOT ramblings that cannot be understood by anybody is just not applicable.

I find it so difficult to understand how people can pull scriptural verses out of context the way modern charismatics do and make it suit their purposes.

Do you think we are feeling the "birth pangs" Jesus spoke of concerning the season and the beginning of the end-times? Of course this is a loaded question. . . even Paul expected Jesus during his lifetime. But, never before have we seen such corruption and misinterpretation of scripture along with sin in churches, etc. If I were the heavenly Father--(and I mean absolutely NO qualifications there)--I would be deciding on providing judgment to this wicked world. I don't know how we can get much more like "in the days of Noah." Just thinking aloud.

 

[Nickleus]

Billy Graham said that there is no biblical proof against the speaking in tongues. Whoever is against tongues, but trusts Graham should take a double look. Don't be affraid to put your FAITH in something people!

Walk the GOOD walk people
-NICKLEUS-

 

[Don]

I'd rather keep my faith in God and His Word.

Question: What tongue?

 

[shy one]

TO all who reads this thread I want to let you know I do not believe you have to speak in tongues to get to heaven . I just smoly believe in them because it is in the Bible , as well as all the fruits of the spirit , and I have been tought this doctrine for 15 years . I condem you for not beleiving in them that is you'r opinion but I am angyr that people on this thread has said that penecostal is adeception and occult . any religion can easly be called that but we believe in salvation we don't pray to any one but God and Jesus. and our pastor does not believe in sinning all week and then asking fo forgiveness on Sunday and going out and doing it all over . if you are a christian live it 24 7 not just Sunday .

 

[qwerty]

Here are some additional thoughts:

No limit on God's gifts
John Michael Talbot

We live in a troubled world. Never before has so much good been possible, yet so much bad still happens. In times like these it is easy to get discouraged.
There is a primary answer in times of despair, however. The Judeo-Christian Scriptures encourage us to a life of praise and thanksgiving -- an attitude of gratitude. It takes the downward cycle of negative thoughts and emotions, and turns it upward again.
There is a powerful connection between what we think and how we live. Thoughts affect emotions, which affect our words, actions and those around us.
When negative emotions are left undirected, they confuse the mind from which the words and actions flow. This can bring unhealthy relationships through arguments and fighting, which cause more negative emotions. A negative cycle has begun. Finally, our bodies become more apt to sickness and disease as the immune system gets weaker through emotional and physical stress. It can actually lead to death.
St. Paul tells us to thank God always and for everything in the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ. He can say this because, as he wrote in Romans, "all things work together for the good of those who love God, and have been called according to his purpose."
This means that there is something good that comes from even the most terrible tragedy if we have the eyes of faith to see it. If we relied on feelings, we would not thank or praise God for the bad times and tragedies that normally occur in every life.
This gratitude for all things does not mean that we quit feeling and caring for the poor and downtrodden. (Jesus even wept for the death of a friend he knew he would raise from the dead!) It simply means that beneath our human emotions there is a faith that trusts in God in the good times and the bad.
But what happens when your thoughts and emotions have become so habitually negative that it seems impossible to break free? This is where the power of charismatic praise and thanksgiving comes in. Sometimes this just involves extra passion and spirit. Sometimes it means praying "in tongues" or praying in the Spirit.
Scripture and tradition describe two ways of speaking in tongues. One is the experience of Pentecost where "tongues of fire" fell upon the assembled church, and they spoke so that people of every language could understand them (Acts 2:3). This is often called xenolalia. It is for the good of those who hear.
Another form is described by St. Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians and speaks of praying and singing in a way beyond human comprehension that is primarily for the good of those who do it. This is often called glossolalia.
While some of the Church fathers indicate that this gift seemed absent from the more established Church of their post-apostolic era, they continue to describe charismatic experiences in the cathedrals of their time. This can be seen in the writings of St. Augustine in the West and St. John Chrysostom in the East. They describe singing in the Spirit as jubilatio, where the congregation spontaneously sings praises to God without any common melody or words.
They say that it was so loud that it could be heard on the outskirts of their cities and towns. This certainly sounds like a description of contemporary singing in the Spirit to me!
Charismatic signs cannot be manipulated. They are a gift from God. But they must be received and used in order to function fully. Many people say that they will do anything for God except speak in tongues, or totally let go of themselves. As soon as "except" becomes acceptable in our language with God, God's full working in our life is immediately limited. It is a subtle form of pride.
In order to receive the gift of tongues we must be willing to actually open our mouths and verbalize something beyond known language and human logic. Once that attitude of openness is really present, then God is free to give the gift to whomever he chooses.

John Michael Talbot is an award-winning musician and author. He is the spiritual leader of the Brothers and Sisters of Charity in Eureka Springs.

 

[livin'intheword]

Ok, I have a question for all those who "speak in tongues."
The first time you were "able" to speak in tongues, was that the "Batism of the Holy Spirit" ?

Paula

 

[livin'intheword]

Anyone?

 

[livin'intheword]

I got an Email from someone on this tread that said they do believe that being "able" to speak in tongues is the "baptism in the Holy Spirit."


Ephesians 4: 1-5
1.I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called
2.With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3.Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4.There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5.One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

From the Frist Baptist Chruch of Spring Velley website:
" If the Holy Spirt baptism is a present day even then there are two baptisms or water baptism is no longer a commandment. At the time of the writing of the letter to the Ephesians by the Apostle Paul, the baptism of the Jerualem assemly in the Holy Spirit had already happened, once for all, never to leave them, and never to be repeated."


First Baptist Chruch

How can there be two baptisms? There can't. Either water baptism is not for today, or the Holy Spirit baptism isn't for today.

Paula

 

[qwerty]

I've never heard of the "Batism of the Holy Spirit". I'm personally not into the Batman cult.

Now, if you meant the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, then, the possible answers are Yes, No, and Maybe. Depending on whether you are a Pentecostal, Charismatic, Vineyard, Baptist, Catholic, etc., you would have a different answer if you speak in tongues.

And you wanted an easy target.

I wish it were that cut and dried, and easy to figure out. Read through Acts, and see if you can find any concrete method.

It was different for Cornelius than for other disciples who didn't even know there was such a person as the Holy Spirit.

I personally like the ambiguity that God seems to allow. Nobody gets to figure it out and make a nice little formula out of it. (Some try really hard, though, to get it into a formula) It takes faith, just like in the initial act of salvation.

Isn't the story of Philip and the Ethopian eunuch really fun? Obedience to the max, and a soul saved for the kingdom.

And the story of Cornelius is so good. Just like God, isn't it? Makes the skin crawl of those believing Jews of Peter's time. They couldn't figure it out, just like we can't.

That's God. Have you got Him figured out, all wrapped up with a nice theological bow?
All the answers lined up, all the theological ducks in a row?

Then the Holy Spirit comes along and takes Philip for a ride of his life. He gets to see the Ethopian eunuch saved, and then is caught away for another assignment. How would you like to take that ride?

Is your God big enough for you? Maybe not.