DO YOU BELIEVE IN SPEAKING IN TONGUES

[John Wells]

qwerty (quoting Talbot): In order to receive the gift of tongues we must be willing to actually open our mouths and verbalize something beyond known language and human logic. Once that attitude of openness is really present, then God is free to give the gift to whomever he chooses.

You call that biblical based teaching? That is absolute garbage.

1 John 4:1 (NIV)
1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

You "tongues speaking" folks have been witnessed to with scriptural references which you refuse. 'nuf said!

Phillip, thank you for your kind words of encouragement. Yea, it's getting late in the game . . . come Lord Jesus! Amen Paula!

[ November 20, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

[livin'intheword]

Shy One said:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> TO all who reads this thread I want to let you know I do not believe you have to speak in tongues to get to heaven . I just smoly believe in them because it is in the Bible , as well as all the fruits of the spirit , and I have been tought this doctrine for 15 years . I condem you for not beleiving in them that is you'r opinion but I am angyr that people on this thread has said that penecostal is adeception and occult . any religion can easly be called that but we believe in salvation we don't pray to any one but God and Jesus. and our pastor does not believe in sinning all week and then asking fo forgiveness on Sunday and going out and doing it all over . if you are a christian live it 24 7 not just Sunday . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fruits?

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

So You see, if you don't have them all, you don't have anything. It's not fruits, it's fruit.

Ephesians 5:9
(For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

My Brother John Wells, FINALLY we agree on something!!

Paula

 

[Don]

I suppose at this point I could ask dfd2 for an apology...I made an observation which has borne out to be true, but he condemned me for that observation.

(shaking head sadly)

Qwerty, I invite you to go back to page 1 of this thread, and read through the messages again. If you can refute any of the scripture that has been presented, that shows that gift of tongues as it is being used today (i.e., "tongue of angels," "prayer language," etc.) is wrong, then I'll be happy to continue this discussion with you.

I want you to know: I did NOT arrive at this conclusion lightly, or because some Baptist pastor told me I needed to believe this way. I researched EVERY SINGLE VERSE IN THE BIBLE that mentions the words "tongue," "tongues," "language," and/or "languages." I researched Mark 16:17, Acts 2, Acts 10, Acts 19, and 1 Cor 12-14. I've written papers and articles on the subject, and read dozens (if not a hundred) papers and articles and commentaries on the subject.

There is just NO biblical proof for a "tongue of angels." It doesn't exist.

 

[John Wells]

Paula,

When did we ever disagree?

 

[livin'intheword]

Never...

 

[Phillip]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nickleus:
Billy Graham said that there is no biblical proof against the speaking in tongues. Whoever is against tongues, but trusts Graham should take a double look. Don't be affraid to put your FAITH in something people!

Walk the GOOD walk people
-NICKLEUS-<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Be careful in putting your faith in any one particular person. Billy Graham was a GREAT evangelist, but was somewhat weak when it comes to doctrine and Biblical study. Billy believed his wife never needed a "salvation experience" because she grew up in a Christian family and always loved the Lord so she had no need to be "born again" in the meaning of one particular instance in time. Do you believe his doctrine here?

 

[Phillip]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by qwerty:
Here are some additional thoughts:

No limit on God's gifts
John Michael Talbot

. . .
Scripture and tradition describe two ways of speaking in tongues. One is the experience of Pentecost where "tongues of fire" fell upon the assembled church, and they spoke so that people of every language could understand them (Acts 2:3). This is often called xenolalia. It is for the good of those who hear.
Another form is described by St. Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians and speaks of praying and singing in a way beyond human comprehension that is primarily for the good of those who do it. This is often called glossolalia.
While some of the Church fathers indicate that this gift seemed absent from the more established Church of their post-apostolic era, they continue to describe charismatic experiences in the cathedrals of their time. This can be seen in the writings of St. Augustine in the West and St. John Chrysostom in the East. They describe singing in the Spirit as jubilatio, where the congregation spontaneously sings praises to God without any common melody or words.
They say that it was so loud that it could be heard on the outskirts of their cities and towns. This certainly sounds like a description of contemporary singing in the Spirit to me!
Charismatic signs cannot be manipulated. They are a gift from God. But they must be received and used in order to function fully. Many people say that they will do anything for God except speak in tongues, or totally let go of themselves. As soon as "except" becomes acceptable in our language with God, God's full working in our life is immediately limited. It is a subtle form of pride.
In order to receive the gift of tongues we must be willing to actually open our mouths and verbalize something beyond known language and human logic. Once that attitude of openness is really present, then God is free to give the gift to whomever he chooses.

John Michael Talbot is an award-winning musician and author. He is the spiritual leader of the Brothers and Sisters of Charity in Eureka Springs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Obviously John Michael Talbot has not studied Corinthians very well. If you will read the ENTIRE book from front to back and pay attention, Paul is chiding church members for doing exactly like those early churches were doing and causing confusion and disruptive services. There is no difference in the tongues being spoken in Corinthians or in Acts, only in the minds of our friendly Pentecostals which is a relatively new movement (late 1800s -- the biggest growth). In Corinthians when Paul mentions speaking in the tongues or "languages" (as really translated from the Greek) and says of men or angels, he is using a figure of speech. This is clear because he then says you will have a translator available to translate what is being said to the people who can understand the tongues for the people who are of local origin and cannot speak in tongues. This entire discertation (like my spelling tonight) is full of errors and misunderstandings of Acts, Corinthians, what Paul was doing with the Corinthians (trying to straighten out the ABUSE of practices) among other things. Sure, if you let your mind go and open your mouth and let spirits speak through you, they certainly will. THIS IS EXACTLY THE TEACHING OF HOW TO PERFORM A SEANCE. CLEAR THE BRAIN AND ALLOW THE SPIRIT TO COME IN AND SPEAK THROUGH YOU. Does this sound like the Spirit of God? God is not the author of confusion.
Also, for the person who made the remark that God has left us very confused with what we are supposed to believe in this area has obviously not read his Bible carefully and studied the New Testament Churches nor history of the Neew Testament Times. Actual speaking in babble (glosnia or whatever they want to call it) waas a practice that was used by the temple prostitutes at night when they were drunk and would party in the streets. When many of these people started a church in Corinth, Paul had to correct them quite a bit for bad practices because they brought their worldly practices into the church. So, he diplomatically laid down the law. If you will really read carefully the rules for speaking in tongues you will find that he is limiting it so tight that it is virtually impossible to use it; however, lets be real clear here that he is referring to the "languages" (check your Greek translations) that were unknown to the person speaking it, but was to communicate with people in their own language. It was a gift from the spirit because the person did not originally know the language. Why else, do you think Paul kept saying that he would MUCH rather hear a person prophecy (teach or interpret the Bible studies) and other things than speak in tongues. It is funny how people turn this big NEGATIVE of Pauls in Corinthians into an entire religion. . . . and that is LITERALLY what happens in charismatic churches if you ever visit or attend one.
I am really amazed at the Baptists on this site who have a lack of Baptist doctrinal background. It seems that many new Baptist churches fail to provide new members with good doctrinal teaching today and this is a failure on our part that we need to look into very seriously.

 

[Pearl]

I do speak in tongues and I am a Baptist.

 

[Brutus]

It is perfectly clear that in N.T. times,the gospel was authenticated in this way by signs,wonders and miracles of various characters and descriptions..Was it only meant to be true of the early church?...The scriptures never say anywhere that these things were only temporary-never!There is no such statement anywhere.(The Soverign Spirit,pp.31-32,Martyn Lloyd-Jones,1965).This question determines our starting point:Is the experience of signs and wonders detrimental to the centrality of Scripture and preaching?In other words,does it depreciate the supernatural power of God's written and preached word;does it contradict the suffiency of the gospel to save sinners;does the search for signs signify a loss of confidence in the word of the cross?The reason that we should take this question so seriously is because it is rooted in Biblical texts.Rom.1:16 says,:The gospel is the power of God unto salvation" The gospel,not signs and wonders. Paul says,"Jews demand signs,Greeks seek wisdom,but we preach Christ crucified...the power of God..."(1Cor.1:22-23). The"word of the cross is...the power of God"(1Cor.1:18). Sign-seeking is a diversion from the power of Christ crucified.Jesus himself said,"An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign&gt;(Mt.12:39;16:4).But there is a fatal flaw in brinig these texts against every longing for signs and wonders.They would prove too much.If desiring signs and wonders dilutes the power of the gospel-then the early Christians and the Apostles themselves were wicked and adulterous,because they so passionately wanted God to do signs and wonders alongside their powerful preaching.For example,Peter and John and the disciples prayed in Acts 4:30,"Lord,look upon their threats,and grant to thy servants to speak thy word with all boldness,while you stretch out your hand to heal,and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus." Here we have godly men and women praying for signs and wonders to happen in the name of Jesus.And Luke does not portray them as a "wicked and adulterous generation"for doing so.They are exemplary.Not only that ,Luke himself labors in the book of Acts to show how valuable signs and wonders are in winning people to Christ.He does not portray them as a threat to the gospel,but as a witness to the gospel.The reason the church prayed so passionatly in Acts 4:30 for signs and wonders to happen is because God was using them to bring multitudes to Christ.

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Brutus:
The reason the church prayed so passionatly in Acts 4:30 for signs and wonders to happen is because God was using them to bring multitudes to Christ.

You place the focus on the signs and wonders when the main focus of thier prayer was to speak the Word boldly and that prayer was answered. Speaking the Word in boldness is what lead people to Christ.

"Acts 4:31After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

The signs and wonders were there to mark the beginning of the Spirit filling His believers, the beginning of the state of grace and the end of the law, and to fulfill all prophecy.

John 12:37Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:

If signs and wonders were always to be reflective of the Church then why would this be how we can identify false Christs and prophets?

Matthew 24:24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.

What does the Bible say about signs and wonders?

2 Thesselonians 2:9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Pearl:
I do speak in tongues and I am a Baptist.

What language do you speak?

 

[qwerty]

Thomas Cassidy posted this:
Tongues were a sign gift given to the early church as a sign to Israel that the New Testament was being inscripturated. By the close of the canon about 100 AD tongues had completely died out as a spiritual gift. They were no longer being given even when Paul was still writing in about 60 AD, and by 100 AD all those who already had the gift had passed on and the gift, no longer being necessary, passed on with them.
-------------------------------------------

This is what is believed by many as biblical truth. I assume some believe that they can find these words in the Bible. I have never been able to locate these words, myself. I have not even been able to locate the concept.

I would like to know who originated this concept? I don't think Mr. Cassidy did. I have read this concept for quite a few years. But I have never seen anyone give me an origination point for this "truth". That is, who said it, when, where, etc.

I hope we could agree that this is an interpretative "doctrine". That is, the words themselves are not written in scripture. Somebody, somewhere, came up with this concept. The concept itself has been developed so that it can be presented in a few words, very succinctly.

So, do you know the answer? Is it important that we know the source of this doctrine? If we don't know the source, how can we be sure that God is the source?

 

[qwerty]

In the earlier writings of the church fathers, tongues speaking is mentioned. Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202), a scholar of stature, studied under Polycarp of Smyrna, who is reported to have been a personal protégé of the apostle John. Irenaeus, in "Against Heresies" (chapter VI, sec. 1), wrote this commentary on 1 Corinthians 2:6: "Terming those persons ‘perfect’ who have received the Spirit of God, and who through the Spirit of God do speak in all languages, as he used Himself also to speak. In like manner we do also hear many brethren in the Church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit speak all kinds of languages and bring to light for the general benefit the hidden things of men, and declare the mysteries of God." 1

The Christian apologist, Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165) supports this in Dialogue With Trypho, chapter LXXXVIII, where he states: "Now it is possible to see amongst us women and men who possess gifts of the Spirit of God." 2

Even Tertullian (A.D. 160-220), in his "Against Marcion," Book V, chapter VIII, writes concerning his acquaintanceship with the gift. In his argument with Marcion, he penned the following statement: "Let Marcion then exhibit, as gifts of his god, some prophets, such as have not spoken by human sense, but with the Spirit of God, such as have both predicted things to come, and have made manifest the secrets of the heart; let him produce a psalm, a vision, a prayer—only let it be by the Spirit, in an ecstasy that is, in a rapture, whenever an interpretation of tongues has occurred to him…. Now all these signs (of spiritual gifts) are forthcoming from my side without any difficulty, and they agree, too, with the rules, and the dispensations, and the instructions of the Creator; therefore without doubt the Christ, and the Spirit, and the apostle, belong severally to my God." 3

1. The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds. (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1950), Vol. 1, p. 531.
2. Ibid., p. 243.
3. Ibid., Vol. 3, pp. 446, 447.

 

[Christopher]

Pearl,

I am not into denominational names, but do not pride yourself in naming yourself among the Baptists. Genuine Baptists do not speak in tongues. The Pentecostal denomination of Free Will Baptists are not Baptists.

By His grace, Christopher

 

[Kiffin]

Christopher stated,

Genuine Baptists do not speak in tongues. The Pentecostal denomination of Free Will Baptists are not Baptists.

I am part of the Calvinist wing of the Baptist movement but "Free Will Baptists" were the ones who paved the way for us before the Particulor Baptists and cannot be cut out of the Baptist family just because I disagree with them. As for as speaking in tongues, I know of no Baptist confession that prohibits it (If it is genuine). I personaly have reservations but I'm neither a Cessationist nor a Charismatic.

God Bless

[ March 12, 2002, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

[qwerty]

Here is a web page that shows that tongues did appear after 100 A.D.

http://www.holyspiritinfo.net/ch_hist.htm

 

[Christopher]

It is futile to use history to prove a Biblical doctrine. Do you think apostasy just started this century? The false teachers were around in Paul's day.

(1 John 4:1) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

When I see a bunch of people jumping around a church speaking in tongues with nobody interpreting what is being said, how can anybody even think about calling it the work of God's Holy Spirit?

The Bible is clear concerning the regulation of speaking in tongues (1 Cor. 14)

1.) Only men were to speak in tongues in the church (1 Cor. 14:34).

2.) Each man was to speak in tongue by turn, and one was to interpret what was being said. If not, he was to keep silent.

Tongues being practiced outside of these guidelines have no Biblical authority.

By His grace, Christopher

 

[Christopher]

I am a Primitive Baptist, so I am also Calvinist. However, if tongues ceased for 1900+ years...well...I think that is odd.

 

[qwerty]

Christopher,
You might want to consider your logic. You are taking one book that the Apostle Paul wrote, and saying that it is the entire teaching on the subject.

Corinth was not a model church. The requirements that Paul laid out for Corinth could not be held to be the entire teaching for all churches.

There are those who don't want the work of the Holy Spirit. Do you know what the Apostle Paul called the work of the Holy Spirit?

1CO 12:7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. [8] To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, [9] to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, [10] to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. [11] All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

The Apostle Paul said that "these are the work of one and the same Spirit". I agree with Paul. I know many don't agree with Paul. They find a myriad of reasons why they don't agree with Paul. But Paul is on record, writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that these are the work of the Holy Spirit.

Why is it so easy for many Christians, without any source, to say that these are no longer the work of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Kiffin]

Christopher,

Who said they ceased for 1900 years. The Church Fathers report such things. The Montanists being one in the 2nd and 3rd century. Some of the Anabaptists also would be called "Charismatic" in theology and there have been reports of missionaries able to speak the languages of the native people without learning them in the past.

I am not endorsing modern Pentecostal practices but I do think Cessationist theology is built upon one's experiance and logic rather than scripture. Cessationist theology has it's roots in Luther's over reaction to radicals in his day and Darby and Scofield's Dispensationalism. Just because some or many abuse a gift does not mean it doesn't exist. We must be very cautious in this area.

Grace