DO YOU BELIEVE IN SPEAKING IN TONGUES

[Lorelei]

Brutus,

I believe God can and DOES still work miracles today, I just don't think it is done through our hands as He performed those miracles through the apostles hands. God will work miracles at His own choosing and doesn't need me to lay my hands on the sick to do it.

As for 1 Corinthians 13:

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

That which is perfect is already here, for that which is perfect is the Word of God, our New Testament.

Jesus is never referred to as that so it isn't talking about Him.

The Word is also referred to as perfect in other scriptures,

James 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for
reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all
good works.

You can now see clearly through His Word, the perfect law of liberty

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Brutus:
The question was;were the miracles of Paul the unique"sign of an apostle?"

Yes

Originally posted by Brutus:

And should we refrain from praying for signs and wonders today,since they were meant to authenticate the authority of the apostles who were the once-for-all foundation of the church(Eph.2:20)?

Depends on how you define signs and wonders. God can do miraculous things and asking Him to isn't wrong, but expecting Him to through a gift given personally to you is.

As Jesus prayed, not our Will, but Thine!

The signs and wonders of those days were just as you stated, to authenticate the apostles and reveal that the Holy Spirit was indeed indwelling mankind. The indwelling of God's Spirit among both Jews and Gentiles is a miraculous thing! Those miracles inaugurated (if you will) the coming of God's Spirit to all of us.

~Lorelei

 

[Brutus]

You said it not me;"in the English".Who else other than Jesus is perfect? The answer to the question of when the perfect comes and when the imperfect gifts pass away is the"then"of verse 12,namely,the time of seeing"face to face" and "understanding as we are understood."When will this happen?Both of the afore mentioned phrases are stretched beyond the breaking point if we say that they refer to the closing of the N.T. canon or the close of the apostolic age.Rather, they refer to our experience at the second coming of Jesus.Then"we shall see him as he is"(1Jn.3:2) The phrase"face to face"in the Greek O.T. refers to seeing God personally(Gen.32:30;Judges6:22).Thomas Edwards'hundred-year-old commentary is right to say,"When the perfect is come at the advent of Christ,then the Christian will know God intuitively and directly,even as he was before known of God"(commentary on 1Cor.p.353).This means that verse 10 can be paraphrased,"When Christ returns,the imperfect will pass away."And since "the imperfect"refers to spiritual gifts like prophecy and knowledge and tongues,we may paraphrase further,"When Christ returns,then prophecy and knowledge and tongues will pass awat."Paul says"When the perfect comes[at that time,not before or after],the imperfect[gifts like prophecy and tongues,etc.]will pass away.

 

[DocCas]

Brutus, I can't help but think you are confused. The context of 1 Corinthians is clearly about motivation. Love should be our motivator. Paul is telling the church at Corinth that all the gifts in the world are useless unless we walk in love.

He then goes on to tell them that the gifts will pass away, but love will abide (verse 13).

The verses you are refering to are pretty clear. The "perfect (thing)" is not Christ, but the completed bible. The Greek word translated "perfect" is τελειον meaning "perfect" in the sense of "nothing lacking" or "complete." It is neuter, so it cannot possible refer to Jesus, who is masculine.

He then tells the Corinthian church that, when the completed bible is in their hands, they will no longer only have a partial knowledge, but they will know just as they are known, they will see the word of God just as well as they see their own face in a mirror. When we look into the perfect law of liberty (the bible) it shows us ourselves as we really are.

To try to make "perfect" refer to Jesus is to emasculate the Saviour and do violence to the scriptures. To try to make the "face to face" be anything more than a metaphor refering to our ability to know the bible, is also to do violence to the scriptures. But, doing violence to the scriptures is a charismatic trait, so I expect it in this type of discussion.

 

[qwerty]

Mr. Cassidy,
You wrote: He then tells the Corinthian church that, when the completed bible is in their hands, they will no longer only have a partial knowledge

This is an interesting point. It seems to say that Paul had a revelation of the completed Bible, and a completed Canon. I don't see how the text says any such thing. Nowhere in scripture is the concept of a completed Bible ever mentioned. It is a completely interpretational concept. This means that it is an extra-biblical concept. So you need a human source for this concept.

It is obvious by now that neither you or anyone else here who believes as you do will consider it important to know who was the source of your interpretational doctrine.

I reject your interpretation. I used to believe it. But it is intellectually dishonest.

 

[Brutus]

Thomas; just so you know,I am not charismatic

 

[qwerty]

Lorelei,
I know that in the heat of a moment, some inappropriate comments can be made such as when you posted:

I don't say you can't have them because I don't want them. I am just saying that no one today that has a supernatural gift is using it according to the instructions God laid out in His Word, therefore they are either abusing the gift, faking it, or have a Spirit that is not Christ's.

As you are aware, I reject this interpretational doctrine that the work of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12) ended at 100 A.D.

We won't agree. We came from opposite sides, and ended up on opposite sides. I hope you do realize that after all your study, you did not originate this doctrine. If you have taken the time to read much at all, you will find that what you believe about the gifts of the Holy Spirit was quantified, just as you believe, over 100 years ago.

My point is this: you don't know who originated what you believe. The Apostle Paul did not. He did not say the words that you or Mr. Cassidy are saying. You have added your interpretational slant to them.

As to gifts not being supernatural, EVERYTHING THAT GOD DOES IS SUPERNATURAL!! I hope you will think that one through.

I won't be able to teach you, or have any input into your life. But I wish you could know my wife and me. You would find that there are people who really love Jesus, and want to do the work of the Holy Spirit. We accept the supernaturla gifts that the Holy Spirit gives us, because they help us, our family, and those in the church.

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Brutus:
You said it not me;"in the English".Who else other than Jesus is perfect?

Who said what? Paul said "THAT which is perfect", not WHO. There is no who, only a what, a that, an object. Show me ONE other verse where Jesus is referred to as "that".

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by qwerty:
Lorelei,
I know that in the heat of a moment, some inappropriate comments can be made such as when you posted:

Or when you posted

Originally posted by qwerty:
. If you have taken the time to read much at all, you will find that what you believe about the gifts of the Holy Spirit was quantified, just as you believe, over 100 years ago.

So you know just how much time I spent reading? Please..

Oh, forgive me, you must mean spending time reading things other then the Bible, well no, I have not read much outside of the Word of God, for there is no need to. I actually purposely did NOT read outside material for I wanted to be sure that what I believed was based on the Word of God and His Word alone. I didn't research by using commentaries or books written by this theologian or that scholar. I spent A LOT of time reading, but it was spent wisely, reading the Word of God. Maybe if you read more of that and less of other junk you might find the same.

Originally posted by qwerty:
Lorelei,My point is this: you don't know who originated what you believe. The Apostle Paul did not. He did not say the words that you or Mr. Cassidy are saying. You have added your interpretational slant to them.

This is cute..I don't know who originated them because I only use the Word of God to discover them....

Think about what you are saying here...the only "slant" I am using is the one Paul laid out for me.

Originally posted by qwerty:
Lorelei,
As to gifts not being supernatural, EVERYTHING THAT GOD DOES IS SUPERNATURAL!! I hope you will think that one through.

Indeed it is. I was of course, using the definition as used by the Pennycosts and others looking for signs.

Originally posted by qwerty:
Lorelei,I won't be able to teach you, or have any input into your life. But I wish you could know my wife and me. You would find that there are people who really love Jesus, and want to do the work of the Holy Spirit. We accept the supernaturla gifts that the Holy Spirit gives us, because they help us, our family, and those in the church.

What gifts and how are you using them. Be that wistness to show me they are real...do give testimony...

~Lorelei

 

[LP]

Originally posted by qwerty:
I've never heard of the "Batism of the Holy Spirit". I'm personally not into the Batman cult.

Well, if not the Batman cult, then perhaps The Luke Skywalker Religion of the Force.

No kidding: It is an officially recognized religion in the UK!

[ March 13, 2002, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

[DocCas]

Originally posted by qwerty:
I reject your interpretation. I used to believe it. But it is intellectually dishonest.

I can tell from your posts that you refect the plain statements of scripture, and that anyone who does accept God's word for what it says will be accused by you of being "intellectually dishonest." Of course, I am not dishonest, either intellectually, or other wise, but I can understand your desparation to make this discussion about me instead of about what the bible clearly says.

 

[qwerty]

I don't reject the plain Word of God. I reject your interpretation of the Word of God. It's unfortunate that you can't tell the difference between the Word of God, and your interpretation of it.

 

[qwerty]

Lorelei,
I can sense the sarcasm in your request. But I will reply.

My wife and I recently prayed for our music minister, whose 6 month old son died recently in a car wreak. He, the music minister was driving, so he was feeling great grief. He was driving in Dallas in a rainstorm, and was actually driving in the caravan to the cemetery to bury his stepfather. The van hydroplaned, and went across the other lane. They hit a semi-truck, and his wife was ejected from the van. It was a miracle that she was not killed. She ended up under the semi-truck. She was hardly scratched. Their two daughters had been left in the home they were staying in, so they were not in the van.

The Holy Spirit gave both my wife and me different gifts for this situation. First, we were given the ability to have Godly compassion for him and his wife. It is a gift from God to have compassion. It is God's compassion that releases his power.

(When they first came to our church less than a year ago, the Holy Spirit gave my wife a picture of him being like a beautiful flower basket, a gift to our church. We shared it with him, and it greatly encouraged him. Our church has gone through a lot of problems in the past two years, and he was coming into a difficult situation. So the Holy Spirit encouraged him, and us. It was good to know that we were getting a gift from God in him as a music minister.)

I put my arm around him, and began to cry with him. I don't cry, hardly ever. I am not a very emotional person. But the Holy Spirit allowed me to feel his pain. There was a lot of pain.

He had been using the terminology that he had "lost his son". The Holy Spirit gave this word of knowledge or word of wisdom to give to him:
"You have not lost your son. You know where he is. He is in heaven. You now have a representative of your family in heaven. You will see him again." We have talked about this since then, and he and his wife have expressed to us that this word encouraged them, and that they know that they will see their son again. I know that this is not a new concept, but in this specific situation, the way I heard the words in my mind, I could tell that it was the Holy Spirit giving them to me to give to him. And the results showed that it was the work of the Holy Spirit.

I think he was aware of this conceptually, but I could see that the power of the words from the Holy Spirit touched him.

My wife frequently receives pictures in her mind from the Holy Spirit. These often give direction to our prayer, for they open up, and explain things that we would never have thought of.

As we prayed, my wife received a picture. To be honest, as I write this, I cannot remember what the details of the picture are. But we shared it with him, and it too encouraged him.

We were not the total solution to this situation. We were a small part. (It may not seem like a big deal to you. You are reading this in black and white. But it is a true event. God, the Holy Spirit, used a couple of people who wanted to be used, and He, the Holy Spirit, gave supernatural gifts to us, because we are open to him giving them to us. )
But we talked a couple of times after, and he and his wife were grateful for us praying for them. And if you had seen this situation as an observer, you might well have thought that nothing very important happened. That is often the way God uses my wife and me. We don’t look for the limelight. We stay in the background. Only when God gives us an opportunity do we use what He gives us. I hope you notice that I refer to both my wife and me. We often work as a team, probably 95 percent or greater. She is highly gifted in the area of discernment, and when the Holy Spirit gives her a picture, it gives us exactly what we need to minister to a specific situation. And I love the results of the work of the Holy Spirit.

We are open to the Holy Spirit giving us His gifts. We are not leaders in the church at this time. We are just "plain folks". Like I said, I grew up with the doctrine that the gifts had ceased. Fortunately, the Holy Spirit gave me the opportunity to find out that He gives today, just as He always has.

This is one event. In the last 5 years, our opportunities to minister have decreased. But we are always grateful when the Holy Spirit allows us to use what He gives to us. The ten years before that, we had more frequent opportunities. It is always a great joy to us to see how the God the Holy Spirit loves His people, and wants to touch them. The way the Holy Spirit has most often used us in ministry is to counsel. The gifts of supernatural wisdom, supernatural knowledge, and discerning of spirits are all incredibly important in counseling. The Holy Spirit gives us information about the situation that we could never have known, and the person we are counseling would have never revealed to us. They then know that it could only be God. And we look for Godly results in their lives.

I doubt if this will convince you. I can tell you that there are many like my wife and me. Many who aren’t on TV. Many who aren’t asking for money. Unfortunately, there are many who also don't represent the Holy Spirit well. But that is between them and God. We have experienced the reality of the Holy Spirit, and the reality that He gives gifts. I have tasted the true, the real, so I know. I have seen the results of using His gifts, and seen people restored, and encouraged. So, we will keep doing what we are doing. I hope someday you have the opportunity to see the true reality of how the Holy Spirit gives gifts, and how when they are properly used, they bring encouragement and healing to the Body of Christ.

You can find lots of loopholes to attack on. I am not able in this post to answer your every question. This is the most recent event in our lives. Not the showiest. I have other events that are over 10 years old, but this is the newest. It was fun. A great joy!

 

[DocCas]

Fine. Paul was lying when he said "now abideth faith, hope, and charity, these three." If he had been honest, and the Holy Spirit had been honest, he would have written "now abideth faith, hope, charity, tongues, prophecy, and knowledge, these six." Have it your way. But I have to admit, I like an apostle and a Holy Spirit who tells the truth instead of lying.

 

[qwerty]

Mr. Cassidy,
The desperation is not on my part. You will not address the issue of origination of your doctrine. The scriptures do not say what you say. They say what they say, and you add words to make them say what your doctrine says.

The reason you cannot address the issue of origination of this doctrine is that you know that your doctrine does not have an origination that you can point to. You have to haggle over nuances of words.

No, the desperation is not on my part. And this is not personal. Take us out of this, and lets read the words of the person who wrote what you say.

You made the statement:
He then tells the Corinthian church that, when the completed bible is in their hands, they will no longer only have a partial knowledge, but they will know just as they are known, they will see the word of God just as well as they see their own face in a mirror. When we look into the perfect law of liberty (the bible) it shows us ourselves as we really are.

You did not originate this. And you don't know who did. If you did know, then you would have shown it by now.

 

[DocCas]

Originally posted by qwerty:
You will not address the issue of origination of your doctrine.

My doctrine originates in the bible. I have been studying the bible for well over 50 years. My understanding is from what I read, not only in English, but in Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Latin, and several other languages. I know it is hard for you to accept that I think for myself and don't, as you do, get your understanding of doctrine from a third party, but that is the way it is. Time to get over it and get on with your life.

 

[Brutus]

Any of you familliar with the likes of John Piper,John R.Rice,Martin Lloyd-Jones just to name a few? Would it surprise you to know that these three men as well as a host of other well known preachers and evangelists believe that the gifts of the Spirit may still be given as it pleases God.They believe(believed)and teach(taught)that there is nothing in the Bible to indicate that God will never work any miracles in our day.By the way Thomas;can you look up the translation for 1Cor.13:10 in your Greek N.T. and tell me what it says?

 

[Lorelei]

Qwerty,

That was a beautiful story and is indicative of how the Spirit does work through us. That is not what we are talking about. Why didn't you heal his son? Or better yet, have a word from the Lord telling them not to go because thier son would die?

Why? Because our ways are not God's ways (praise the Lord for that!). The "gifts" that have ceased are a person's ability to go and heal all the sick that they come in contact with, or to speak other languages that you have not learned so that others can hear the gospel. Why, if you had the gift as Paul did, you could have raised his son from the dead, but as you can well see, God doesn't work that way, for after all, this world is not our home, so why destine someone to stay when heaven is a far better place?

Your gifts also stayed in line with God's Word. The wisdom and knowledge the Spirit gave you did not contradict His Word, and it never should. This is different from the gift of wisdom and knowledge that the Apostles had. The Spirit gave them the very word of God to pass on to us. If it wasn't by the Spirit then we need not believe a Word of it, but it is complete now and no other words of Knowledge need be followed then those already laid out for us. We know all we need to know.

Do you understand the difference? I know all that God does is a miracle, but if sign gifts still exist, why then didn't you use them?

~Lorelei

 

[qwerty]

Mr. Cassidy,
I accept your credentials. I then assume that you are aware that other conservative scholars (with similar credentials) have fundamental disagreement with your intrepretation of 1 Cor. 13.

My issue is that you did not originate this doctrine. You almost sound like you could have in your last post. I hope that is not what you intended. The doctrine of cessationism is much older than you or me. That is why I would like for you to tell me when and how it originated. Your comments about it are exactly what I was brought up on, and what I read in my Schofield Bible. Your comments could have been sourced from any number of books in the past two generations. The way to communicate about this doctrine is basically verbatim what others have written.

I guess I would like to see you, or somebody, just say that it started with Darby, went on with Schofield, and was then picked up by a host of others. But at that point, you have a real person that is the source. And some of those folks have some really bad personal issues.

So, in reality, I guess you will have to continue to avoid the issue of origination. I don't blame you for not wanting to address it. I would do the same.

 

[qwerty]

Lorelei,
I know you've read the book. Paul did not heal everybody. He speaks of Timothy drinking wine for his frequent stomach illnesses. He left one man in a city sick. Another almost died while he was with Paul.

When my wife and I minister, we minister with the Holy Spirit, and we use the gifts, as mentioned in 1 Cor. 12. We don't look for our fame. We look for His glory. The gifts are not what you assume. They are much more "down to earth". The Holy Spirit is pleased to give us His gifts to accomplish His purposes. His purpose was not to raise the 6 month old boy from death. His purpose was to comfort a music minister. And the Holy Spirit gave gifts to accomplish that task.