Ascend with the shout to meet HIM in the air.
He shall set foot on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem.
Two different incidents.
He shall set foot on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem.
Two different incidents.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
Do you believe in the Rapture and Why? Why not?
- Thread starter TaliOrlando
- Start date
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Amen, Brother Hillclimber1 -- Preach it! :thumbs:
(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)
The first resurrection conists of these two events:
rapture2 - a resurrection1 followed shortly by
a rapture1 before the Tribulation Period
(many pre-mill, post-tribs deny a 'rapture2' exists
but think a 'rapture1 exists).
(this I frequently call 'a rapture/resurrection
in my old writings)
resurrection2 - a resurrection1 followed shortly by
a rapture1 before the Tribulation Period
(this I call generally this in my old writings:
the 'Second Coming of Jesus
in power & Glory, or just 'Second Advent', etc.)
rapture1 - an event held by Jesus where the living saints
get new eternal bodies like Jesus' body.
resurrection1 - an event held by Jesus where dead saints
get new eternal bodies like Jesus' body.
--------------------
1. Matthew 24:3
Mat 24:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
And as he sate vpon the mount of Oliues,
the Disciples came vnto him priuately,
saying, Tell vs, when shall these things be?
And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
AND (what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?
Other Bible Versions put 'age' instead of
'world' the Greek term is not 'cosmos'
usually translated 'world' but the Greek term is
'aeon' from which we get the English Word 'eon'
(a long period of time) and translated usually 'age'.
----------------------------------
2. Matthew 24:30-31
Matthew 24 can be divided into 3 parts by the three main ANDs that
answer the three questions of Matthew 24:3. The three parts are:
Matthew 24:4-14 : when shall these things be?
Matthew 24:15-30 : what shall be the signe of thy coming,
Matthew 24:31-44 : (what shall be the signe) of the end of the world
-----------------------------------
3. 2 Thess 2:1
//Does the word " gather together" (episunago)
in 2 Thess 2:1 mean the Rapture?//
IMHO - yes, the rapture2, in fact
IMHO the (episunago) in Matthew 24:31
means "gather together", the rapture2, also.
IMHO the following examples of the Coming of Jesus
in power; (resurrection 2) terminology is bolded, the
gathering of God's Church Age saints (rapture2)
is underlined.
The seperating AND (Greek 'Kai') is writ red
and large.
Mat 24:30-31 (KJV1611 Edition):
And then shall appeare the signe of the Sonne of man
in heauen: and then shall all the Tribes of
the earth mourne, and they shall see
the Sonne of man comingin the clouds of heauen,
with power and great glory.
31 AND hee shall send his Angels with a great sound
of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his Elect
from the foure windes, from one end of heauen to the other.
2Th 2:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
Now wee beseech you, brethren, by the comming
of our Lord Iesus Christ, AND by our gathering together
vnto him,
In both cases, the resurrection2 and the rapture2
(with variant descriptures) are described and joined
by an AND meaning two seperate sets of events.
The two events are mentioned in other scirptures.
---------------------------------
4. Titus 2:13
Tit 2:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great
God, and our Sauiour Iesus Christ,
IMHO 'and' here seperates two different sets of events:
that blessed hope' = Rapture2
'glorious appearing of the great God ... ' = Resurrection2
-----------------------------
5. Revelation 20:4
Rev 20:4-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw thrones,
and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
&
I saw the soules of them that were beheaded
for the witnesse of Iesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither* his image,
neither* had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
or* in their hands;
and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.
5 But the rest of the dead liued not
againe vntill the thousand yeeres were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
(did anybody bother to read my discussion in
#1 about the ten 'and*'s in Rev 20:4?
*note, 'neither' is a joiner meaning 'and not'
*note, 'or' is translated from the same root word as all the 'and's
All ten of these joiners relate or disrelate in different ways
and different phrases (the OR related two places
where the mark might be received (1) forehead
or (2) hand - two different sets of body parts
(not two different names of sets of body parts).
You can quote me as saying:
"I, Ed Edwards, believe that the '&' in Revelation 20:4-5
relates different groups of people who were
resurrected1/raptured1 at different times."
The ones on the thrones were in rapture2.
The ones beheaded were in resurrection2.
----------------------------------------------------
Yep, them pesky 'ands' determine the difference in several eschatologies.
Five 'and's that seperate
the rapture2 from the resurrection2
the rapture2 from the resurrection2
(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)
The first resurrection conists of these two events:
rapture2 - a resurrection1 followed shortly by
a rapture1 before the Tribulation Period
(many pre-mill, post-tribs deny a 'rapture2' exists
but think a 'rapture1 exists).
(this I frequently call 'a rapture/resurrection
in my old writings)
resurrection2 - a resurrection1 followed shortly by
a rapture1 before the Tribulation Period
(this I call generally this in my old writings:
the 'Second Coming of Jesus
in power & Glory, or just 'Second Advent', etc.)
rapture1 - an event held by Jesus where the living saints
get new eternal bodies like Jesus' body.
resurrection1 - an event held by Jesus where dead saints
get new eternal bodies like Jesus' body.
--------------------
1. Matthew 24:3
Mat 24:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
And as he sate vpon the mount of Oliues,
the Disciples came vnto him priuately,
saying, Tell vs, when shall these things be?
And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
AND (what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?
Other Bible Versions put 'age' instead of
'world' the Greek term is not 'cosmos'
usually translated 'world' but the Greek term is
'aeon' from which we get the English Word 'eon'
(a long period of time) and translated usually 'age'.
----------------------------------
2. Matthew 24:30-31
Matthew 24 can be divided into 3 parts by the three main ANDs that
answer the three questions of Matthew 24:3. The three parts are:
Matthew 24:4-14 : when shall these things be?
Matthew 24:15-30 : what shall be the signe of thy coming,
Matthew 24:31-44 : (what shall be the signe) of the end of the world
-----------------------------------
3. 2 Thess 2:1
//Does the word " gather together" (episunago)
in 2 Thess 2:1 mean the Rapture?//
IMHO - yes, the rapture2, in fact
IMHO the (episunago) in Matthew 24:31
means "gather together", the rapture2, also.
IMHO the following examples of the Coming of Jesus
in power; (resurrection 2) terminology is bolded, the
gathering of God's Church Age saints (rapture2)
is underlined.
The seperating AND (Greek 'Kai') is writ red
and large.
Mat 24:30-31 (KJV1611 Edition):
And then shall appeare the signe of the Sonne of man
in heauen: and then shall all the Tribes of
the earth mourne, and they shall see
the Sonne of man comingin the clouds of heauen,
with power and great glory.
31 AND hee shall send his Angels with a great sound
of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his Elect
from the foure windes, from one end of heauen to the other.
2Th 2:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
Now wee beseech you, brethren, by the comming
of our Lord Iesus Christ, AND by our gathering together
vnto him,
In both cases, the resurrection2 and the rapture2
(with variant descriptures) are described and joined
by an AND meaning two seperate sets of events.
The two events are mentioned in other scirptures.
---------------------------------
4. Titus 2:13
Tit 2:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great
God, and our Sauiour Iesus Christ,
IMHO 'and' here seperates two different sets of events:
that blessed hope' = Rapture2
'glorious appearing of the great God ... ' = Resurrection2
-----------------------------
5. Revelation 20:4
Rev 20:4-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw thrones,
and they sate vpon them,
and iudgement was giuen vnto them:
&
I saw the soules of them that were beheaded
for the witnesse of Iesus,
and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast,
neither* his image,
neither* had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
or* in their hands;
and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.
5 But the rest of the dead liued not
againe vntill the thousand yeeres were finished.
This is the first resurrection.
(did anybody bother to read my discussion in
#1 about the ten 'and*'s in Rev 20:4?
*note, 'neither' is a joiner meaning 'and not'
*note, 'or' is translated from the same root word as all the 'and's
All ten of these joiners relate or disrelate in different ways
and different phrases (the OR related two places
where the mark might be received (1) forehead
or (2) hand - two different sets of body parts
(not two different names of sets of body parts).
You can quote me as saying:
"I, Ed Edwards, believe that the '&' in Revelation 20:4-5
relates different groups of people who were
resurrected1/raptured1 at different times."
The ones on the thrones were in rapture2.
The ones beheaded were in resurrection2.
----------------------------------------------------
Yep, them pesky 'ands' determine the difference in several eschatologies.
Last edited by a moderator:
RevJWWhiteJr
New Member
The Rapture
The direct answer to the surface question would be a heralded YES. However, the explanation of why would be connected to my teachings concerning the gathering of evidence through an honest investigation of the facts presenting themselves relevant to the case. This leads one to the understanding of the differences in the levels of conclusions of what do you (1) think, what do you (2) believe, what do you (3) know.
In law enforcement it is the difference between what you know (which is actually what one thinks to be true, without the facts), and what can you prove (which is actually what one believes based on the facts, which can be incomplete or misleading).
Originally, I was raised Southern Baptist. (I still consider myself Baptist and pastor Courtland Independent Baptist Church west of Queen City, Texas off Hwy 96.) My grandfather was a Southern Baptist preacher for over 47 years. Because of my background it was very difficult for me to accept what the scripture eventually proved to me to be the truth, after surrendering myself to genuine Bible study as an adult. It is true that this issue is one of the, if not the most controversial subject in Christendom and will never be resolved this side of the return of the Lord himself. (A lot of Christians are going to be disappointedly surprised, literally).
In short, for those who are adamant in their belief that the Church will and/or will not enter the Great Tribulation Period, (as this seems like a contradiction, how could both be true?),,,
Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
The portion of the Church guilty of adultery against her Bridegroom Jesus Christ will be cast into the Great Tribulation. That is what the passage says and is confirmed in teaching by the rest of the scripture. The portion of the Church that repents of the sin of adultery will not be cast into Great Tribulation, and it as simple as that.
All interpretations of all other passages from the scripture must agree with this one verse. With a complete and through study of the scripture, The Conditional Rapture (Pre-Tribulational but conditional leading to a “partial rapture”) is the only interpretational view that agrees with the whole of God’s word.
I understand that many disagree with these statements (and have every right to do so) based on their own interpretation of the scripture that can be manipulated in all directions to “prove” any and every view. But personally and professionally, based on my studies, ( the preliminary teachings of which have been documented in my book,, The Partial Rapture “Theory” Explained / Escaping the Coming Storm) I am as sure of these teachings as the truth, as I am my own salvation. RevJW AKA (Bro. Chip).
revjwwhitejr@aol.com
TaliOrlando said:Do you believe in the Rapture and Why? Why not?
The direct answer to the surface question would be a heralded YES. However, the explanation of why would be connected to my teachings concerning the gathering of evidence through an honest investigation of the facts presenting themselves relevant to the case. This leads one to the understanding of the differences in the levels of conclusions of what do you (1) think, what do you (2) believe, what do you (3) know.
In law enforcement it is the difference between what you know (which is actually what one thinks to be true, without the facts), and what can you prove (which is actually what one believes based on the facts, which can be incomplete or misleading).
Originally, I was raised Southern Baptist. (I still consider myself Baptist and pastor Courtland Independent Baptist Church west of Queen City, Texas off Hwy 96.) My grandfather was a Southern Baptist preacher for over 47 years. Because of my background it was very difficult for me to accept what the scripture eventually proved to me to be the truth, after surrendering myself to genuine Bible study as an adult. It is true that this issue is one of the, if not the most controversial subject in Christendom and will never be resolved this side of the return of the Lord himself. (A lot of Christians are going to be disappointedly surprised, literally).
In short, for those who are adamant in their belief that the Church will and/or will not enter the Great Tribulation Period, (as this seems like a contradiction, how could both be true?),,,
Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
The portion of the Church guilty of adultery against her Bridegroom Jesus Christ will be cast into the Great Tribulation. That is what the passage says and is confirmed in teaching by the rest of the scripture. The portion of the Church that repents of the sin of adultery will not be cast into Great Tribulation, and it as simple as that.
All interpretations of all other passages from the scripture must agree with this one verse. With a complete and through study of the scripture, The Conditional Rapture (Pre-Tribulational but conditional leading to a “partial rapture”) is the only interpretational view that agrees with the whole of God’s word.
I understand that many disagree with these statements (and have every right to do so) based on their own interpretation of the scripture that can be manipulated in all directions to “prove” any and every view. But personally and professionally, based on my studies, ( the preliminary teachings of which have been documented in my book,, The Partial Rapture “Theory” Explained / Escaping the Coming Storm) I am as sure of these teachings as the truth, as I am my own salvation. RevJW AKA (Bro. Chip).
revjwwhitejr@aol.com
Last edited by a moderator:
I do not believe in the rapture as commonly understood. I will shamelessly quote NT Wright on this topic:
This dramatic end-time scenario is based (wrongly, as we shall see) on Paul’s First Letter to the Thessalonians, where he writes: “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God. The dead in Christ will rise first; then we, who are left alive, will be snatched up with them on clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord” (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).
What on earth (or in heaven) did Paul mean?
It is Paul who should be credited with creating this scenario. Jesus himself, as I have argued in various books, never predicted such an event[2]. The gospel passages about “the Son of Man coming on the clouds” (Mark 13:26, 14:62, for example) are about Jesus’ vindication, his “coming” to heaven from earth. The parables about a returning king or master (for example, Luke 19:11-27) were originally about God returning to Jerusalem, not about Jesus returning to earth. This, Jesus seemed to believe, was an event within space-time history, not one that would end it forever.
The Ascension of Jesus and the Second Coming are nevertheless vital Christian doctrines[3], and I don’t deny that I believe some future event will result in the personal presence of Jesus within God’s new creation. This is taught throughout the New Testament outside the Gospels. But this event won’t in any way resemble the Left Behind account. Understanding what will happen requires a far more sophisticated cosmology than the one in which “heaven” is somewhere up there in our universe, rather than in a different dimension, a different space-time, altogether.
The New Testament, building on ancient biblical prophecy, envisages that the creator God will remake heaven and earth entirely, affirming the goodness of the old Creation but overcoming its mortality and corruptibility (e.g., Romans 8:18-27; Revelation 21:1; Isaiah 65:17, 66:22). When that happens, Jesus will appear within the resulting new world (e.g., Colossians 3:4; 1 John 3:2).
Paul’s description of Jesus’ reappearance in 1 Thessalonians 4 is a brightly colored version of what he says in two other passages, 1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and Philippians 3:20-21: At Jesus’ “coming” or “appearing,” those who are still alive will be “changed” or “transformed” so that their mortal bodies will become incorruptible, deathless. This is all that Paul intends to say in Thessalonians, but here he borrows imagery—from biblical and political sources—to enhance his message. Little did he know how his rich metaphors would be misunderstood two millennia later.
First, Paul echoes the story of Moses coming down the mountain with the Torah. The trumpet sounds, a loud voice is heard, and after a long wait Moses comes to see what’s been going on in his absence.
Second, he echoes Daniel 7, in which “the people of the saints of the Most High” (that is, the “one like a son of man”) are vindicated over their pagan enemy by being raised up to sit with God in glory. This metaphor, applied to Jesus in the Gospels, is now applied to Christians who are suffering persecution.
Third, Paul conjures up images of an emperor visiting a colony or province. The citizens go out to meet him in open country and then escort him into the city. Paul’s image of the people “meeting the Lord in the air” should be read with the assumption that the people will immediately turn around and lead the Lord back to the newly remade world.
Paul’s mixed metaphors of trumpets blowing and the living being snatched into heaven to meet the Lord are not to be understood as literal truth, as the Left Behind series suggests, but as a vivid and biblically allusive description of the great transformation of the present world of which he speaks elsewhere.
Paul’s misunderstood metaphors present a challenge for us: How can we reuse biblical imagery, including Paul’s, so as to clarify the truth, not distort it? And how can we do so, as he did, in such a way as to subvert the political imagery of the dominant and dehumanizing empires of our world? We might begin by asking, What view of the world is sustained, even legitimized, by the Left Behind ideology? How might it be confronted and subverted by genuinely biblical thinking? For a start, is not the Left Behind mentality in thrall to a dualistic view of reality that allows people to pollute God’s world on the grounds that it’s all going to be destroyed soon? Wouldn’t this be overturned if we recaptured Paul’s wholistic vision of God’s whole creation?
Interesting thread, and I'm surprised there are so many who appear to not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. I would agree with that.
I may have posted this before on this board (can't remember) but I agree with the view of Corrie Ten Boom that this is a quite dangerous teaching. Here's from a letter she wrote in 1974:
There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.
In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,
"We have failed.
We should have made the people strong for persecution,
rather than telling them Jesus would come first.
Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution,
how to stand when the tribulation comes,
– to stand and not faint."
I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it.
We are next.
.....
In America, the churches sing, "Let the congregation escape tribulation", but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.
Rest of it at:
http://endtimepilgrim.org/corrie.htm
I may have posted this before on this board (can't remember) but I agree with the view of Corrie Ten Boom that this is a quite dangerous teaching. Here's from a letter she wrote in 1974:
There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.
In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,
"We have failed.
We should have made the people strong for persecution,
rather than telling them Jesus would come first.
Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution,
how to stand when the tribulation comes,
– to stand and not faint."
I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it.
We are next.
.....
In America, the churches sing, "Let the congregation escape tribulation", but in China and Africa the tribulation has already arrived. This last year alone more than two hundred thousand Christians were martyred in Africa. Now things like that never get into the newspapers because they cause bad political relations. But I know. I have been there. We need to think about that when we sit down in our nice houses with our nice clothes to eat our steak dinners. Many, many members of the Body of Christ are being tortured to death at this very moment, yet we continue right on as though we are all going to escape the tribulation.
Rest of it at:
http://endtimepilgrim.org/corrie.htm
Most emphatically!TaliOrlando said:Do you believe in the Rapture and Why? Why not?
Simply because, IMHO, this is what a literal rendering of His word says.
Yes, I know there are scriptures that can lead one to an alternate conclusion (several alternates in fact), but, again, IMHO, when all are taken as literal ( just as the prophesies leading up to Christ's birth were literal), the overwhelming conclusion is that there will be a rapture.
As a side note, I have heard, though I don't necessarily buy it, that the ones who DO believe in the rapture will be raptured, while the ones who DENY the rapture will have to wait till the end of the dreaded 7 years; still saved, just not raptured prior.
Should that be the case, we'll wave to the rest of y'all as we hightail it outta here.:godisgood:
MARANATHA!!!!!!!
Here's a question for those who believe in Rapture-
If there is a rapture, who will lead those left behind to Christ? All those who are unbelievers would be wiped out in Armageddon? What about the scriptures that say those who endure to the end shall be saved? That means believers I would think.
If there is a rapture, who will lead those left behind to Christ? All those who are unbelievers would be wiped out in Armageddon? What about the scriptures that say those who endure to the end shall be saved? That means believers I would think.
K
kevin hobby
Guest
Lyndie said:If there is a rapture, who will lead those left behind to Christ?
...The 144,000...
Lyndie said:What about the scriptures that say those who endure to the end shall be saved?
...They will be delivered...The Tribulation will be over and they will still be alive...
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Lyndie said:Here's a question for those who believe in Rapture-
... What about the scriptures that say those who endure to the end shall be saved? That means believers I would think.
It does mean believers and 'the end' is the end of the current age: the Church Age, the times of the Gentiles. IMHO 'the end' is NOT the end of the Tribulation period. Note that Matthew 24:13 is in the block of scripture Matthew 24:4-14 which IMHO is talking about the end of the current age (one of the three questions asked in Matthew 24:3 (see my Essay on Matthew 24 located nearby.)
Here is one of my old writings on this verse:
--------------------------------
Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):
But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.
This statement is true:
IF he endures to the end;
THEN he shall be saved.
Logic Dictates that this statement is
also correct because the first one was:
If he is not saved;
Then He did not endure to the end.
There are two statements that come from
this that are independent of the first
statement (I didn't say they were true or
false); I leave it up to the reader to
prove one of them true from the Bible.
If one is true, both are true [by the rules
of Logic] ):
IF he endures NOT to the end;
THEN he shall NOT be saved.
IF he is saved;
THEN he endures to the end.
Matthew 24:13 does NOT support the
truth of these last two propositions.
Some people think it does, but they
are wrong.
-------------------------------
An example where the second set of propositions
are not true, even though the original set
of propositions is true.
First set of propositions (True)
If you smoke; then you will die prematurly.
If you die NOT prematurely; then you
then you did NOT smoke.
Second set of propositions (False)
If you do not smoke; then you will not die prematurely
[it is false, you could die from a fall while
cleaning your gutters]
If you die prematurely; then you smoked.
[perchance you die prematurely cause
you got lung cancer from pollution]
--------------------------------
Don't get these two pairs of statements confused with each other. Thank you. Here is another writing giving emphasis to the pretribulation rapture2 (resurrection1 followed swiftly by a rapture1):
-------------------------------
The Thessalonians were familiar with
this saying of Jesus which we now find
recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):
But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.
But some said of their friend "He got
sick and died before Jesus came to
get him, poor soul -- he didn't endure
to the end."
Paul addresses this problem in
a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
one of the most comforting passages in the
Bible.
1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
brethren, concerning those who have fallen
asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
rose again, even so God will bring with Him
those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
that we who are alive and remain until
the coming of the Lord will by no means
precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend
from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain
shall be caught up (LATIN: raptured)
together with them in the clouds to meet
the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words[/u.
5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
brethren, you have no need that I should
write to you.
2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
in the night.
3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
then sudden destruction comes upon them,
as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
so that this Day should overtake
you as a thief.
5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
We are not of the night nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
but let us watch and be sober.
7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our
Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
we should live together with Him.
11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
one another, just as you also are doing.
I've underlined a command to comfort each
other with these things. I personally don't see how
we can comfort each other with 'Jesus is going to
come get us at the end of the Tribulation period'.
So I use 'Jesus is going to come get us at the end of
the age which is before the Tribulation Period starts.
Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
in a second letter:
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):
1 Now, brethren, concerning
the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
and our gathering together to Him,
we ask you,
2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
either by spirit or by word or by letter,
as if from us, as though the day of Christ
had come.
3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
for that Day will not come unless
the falling away comes first,
and the man of sin
is revealed, the son of perdition,
I underlined "our gathering together to Him,
we ask you" in verse 1 and
the falling away comes first.
The second is the only mention of the first
in the rest of the chapter.
The falling away that comes first
is the Rapture!
Then the man of sin is revealed, the
antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
begins.
While the KJV uses "falling away" here, the
English versions before the KJV used a
form of "departure" - again, the idea of
someone leaving this world as in the pretribulation
rapture/resurrection
2 Thessalonians 2:3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall
not come, except there come a departing first, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
the rapture.
Here are some things that could happen
before the rapture but they do NOT
have to happen.
1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invasion
(the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
Millinnial Kingdom period)
3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
on Mount Moriah north of and alongside
the Dome of the Rock.
But again, these things do not HAVE
TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
happen after the rapture; they could happen
before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
rapture.
------------------------------
Those who die some consider to to come to the 'end', for the next moment they are ripped up from their graves (resurrection1 at the rapture2).
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:
0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth
[
The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):
0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15
1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44
2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)
Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)
The time line according to Revelation:
0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5
The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:
0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)
1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away
2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8
Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)
BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
in 1952 before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 80% of Baptists and 60% of kindred Christians.
0. church age continues <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth
[
The time line according to Matthew 24
(Mount Olivet Discourse, also Matthew 25,
Mark 13, Luke 21):
0. church age continues <== you are here!
Matthew 24:4-15
1. rapture/resurrection event
Matthew 24:31-44
2. Tribulation time
Matthew 24:21-28
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
Matthew 24:29-30)
Not mentioned in Matthew 24:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)
The time line according to Revelation:
0. church age continues - Rev 2-3 <== you are here!
1. rapture/resurrection event - Rev 4:1 (type)
2. Tribulation time - Rev 4:2-19:10
3. Second Advent of Jesus event - Rev 19:11-21
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom - Rev 20:1-6
5. new heaven & new earth - Rev 20:7-22:5
The time line according to 2 Thessalonians 2:
0. church age continues <== you are here!
(implied, until the falling away)
1. rapture/resurrection
v.1 - gathering together unto him
v.3 - falling away
2. Tribulation time
(time of the man of sin)
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
v.1 - coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
v.8
Not mentioned:
(4. literal MK=millennial kingdom)
(5. new heaven & new earth)
BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
in 1952 before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 80% of Baptists and 60% of kindred Christians.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Lyndie said:I'm not sure about the whole idea of a rapture. The Bible only speaks of a Second Coming. His second coming is when He sets up His kingdom on Earth. If you believe the Rapture, then Him coming to set up the Kingdom would be the third time.
Ed's COMMING OF JESUS counter:
1. about 1BC - came from heaven to
born as a Babe in Bethelhem
2. about AD 0033 (some say AD0030) - came from Hell
the Victor over Death, the Grave, and Hell
3. unknown time 2008 or later: comes from Heaven to
get His own people (i.e. us) and time them to heaven (AKA: pretribulation Raptue2)
4. 7 years later - comes from Heaven with we Church Age saints
to whip up on the antichrist, Satan, and the their lackys.
And those may not be all, just the ones I know of offhand.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
mrtumnus said:Interesting thread, and I'm surprised there are so many who appear to not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. I would agree with that.
I may have posted this before on this board (can't remember) but I agree with the view of Corrie Ten Boom that this is a quite dangerous teaching. Here's from a letter she wrote in 1974:
There are some among us teaching there will be no tribulation, that the Christians will be able to escape all this. These are the false teachers that Jesus was warning us to expect in the latter days. Most of them have little knowledge of what is already going on across the world. I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution.
In China, the Christians were told, "Don't worry, before the tribulation comes you will be translated – raptured." Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly,
"We have failed.
We should have made the people strong for persecution,
rather than telling them Jesus would come first.
Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution,
how to stand when the tribulation comes,
– to stand and not faint."
I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation, but more than sixty percent of the Body of Christ across the world has already entered into the tribulation. There is no way to escape it.
We are next.
...
Strange, don't people listen to what Jesus said?
John 16:33 (KJV1611 Edition):
These things I haue spoken vnto you, that in me ye might haue peace, in the world ye shall haue tribulation: but be of good cheare, I haue ouercome the world.
---------------------------------
Joh 16:33 (KJV1611 Edition):
These things I haue spoken vnto you,
that in me ye might haue peace, in the world
ye shall haue tribulation: but be of good cheare,
I haue ouercome the world.
Here is my essay from the early 1990s about
Tribulation:
---------------------------------
The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed
The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, affliction, trouble
1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointments,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity, torture
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's expulsion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millennial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
WHO: dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus
4. "The Tribulation period" of those
ruled by the Antichrist
(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus
5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those
ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beastruled by the Antrichrist
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus
Note that #1, #2, and #3 are measured in travail units;
#4 and #5 are measured in time units.
Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:
The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompense in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:
---------------------------------
Please read the whole council of Jesus regarding this age and the next.
I still HOPE that Jesus comes to get me before I die and before two of those above Tribulations (#4 & #5) - those Tribulations are alsoexamples both of Judgement AND the "Wrath of God". (But God will do whatever God wants to do, whenever God wants)
(contrast with Tribulations #1, #2, and #3 which are the wrath of man)
RevJWWhiteJr
New Member
Pre-Trib Rapture
I say again,
Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
The portion of the Church guilty of adultery against her Bridegroom Jesus Christ will be cast into the Great Tribulation. That is what the passage says and is confirmed in teaching by the rest of the scripture. The portion of the Church that repents of the sin of adultery will not be cast into Great Tribulation, and it as simple as that.
Most of what is called the Church today will enter into Great Tribulation. These constitute the individuals who will begin evangelization inside the Great Tribulation Period, after they realize they have missed the Rapture through disobedience by the commiting of adultery against their Bridegroom.
All interpretations of all other passages from the scripture must agree with this one verse. With a complete and through study of the scripture, The Conditional Rapture (Pre-Tribulational but conditional leading to a “partial rapture”) is the only interpretational view that agrees with the whole of God’s word.
RevJW
Lyndie said:Here's a question for those who believe in Rapture-
If there is a rapture, who will lead those left behind to Christ? All those who are unbelievers would be wiped out in Armageddon? What about the scriptures that say those who endure to the end shall be saved? That means believers I would think.
I say again,
Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
The portion of the Church guilty of adultery against her Bridegroom Jesus Christ will be cast into the Great Tribulation. That is what the passage says and is confirmed in teaching by the rest of the scripture. The portion of the Church that repents of the sin of adultery will not be cast into Great Tribulation, and it as simple as that.
Most of what is called the Church today will enter into Great Tribulation. These constitute the individuals who will begin evangelization inside the Great Tribulation Period, after they realize they have missed the Rapture through disobedience by the commiting of adultery against their Bridegroom.
All interpretations of all other passages from the scripture must agree with this one verse. With a complete and through study of the scripture, The Conditional Rapture (Pre-Tribulational but conditional leading to a “partial rapture”) is the only interpretational view that agrees with the whole of God’s word.
RevJW
You ask: Do you believe the 'rapture'?
I don't because it's nowhere in the Scriptures. Often when you present your 'Scripture' for your own believing a 'rapture', you yourself supply: "Latin". Please let us get this settled once for all, the 'Latin' 'rapture' is nowhere to be found in the true and real, genuine, Greek' Scriptures. So I don't believe it, besides a host of other, Scriptural, reasons. 'The Rapture' is not even a historic doctrine, despite the Vulgate had had that word for centuries before 'The Rapture' made its appearance in the nineteenth century. And you know that too, dear Ed Edwards.
I don't because it's nowhere in the Scriptures. Often when you present your 'Scripture' for your own believing a 'rapture', you yourself supply: "Latin". Please let us get this settled once for all, the 'Latin' 'rapture' is nowhere to be found in the true and real, genuine, Greek' Scriptures. So I don't believe it, besides a host of other, Scriptural, reasons. 'The Rapture' is not even a historic doctrine, despite the Vulgate had had that word for centuries before 'The Rapture' made its appearance in the nineteenth century. And you know that too, dear Ed Edwards.
Interesting 'historical' coincidence may it be, that the Seventh Day Adventists started their first first resurrection also in the nineteenth century; they calling it a 'special resurrection', or rather, "the special resurrection" of certain privileged persons among whom count Daniel and Mrs White.
Since I have been posting on BB - 2002? - I noticed Bob Ryan refers to this 'special resurrection' as 'the rapture'.
Since I have been posting on BB - 2002? - I noticed Bob Ryan refers to this 'special resurrection' as 'the rapture'.
One other reason I don't believe a 'rapture' is because it is always linked to one or another sort of extraordinary, QUALIFYING or distinguishing 'persecution' or suffering during this or that period in time, thus bringing down the final analysis of salvation upon one's works of righteousness or the earning of salvation, which is the most contrary the free Grace Gospel dogma there can be. Thanks,but no thanks. Each shall carry his own pack, said Paul, and to each commanded that pack shall be the cross of Jesus. So the weight on the shoulders of each redeemed is the same. There is no sufferer for the faith of Jesus who will reckon his cross heavy or painful or a suffering or a persecution. The cross of the redeemed is his crown and throne. John say the souls of those beheaded for their faith in Christ as under the alter-- that altar was over them their shrine and crown of glory. God is not the repector of the person; He is not thr respector of different grades or qualities or quantities or times or dispensation or kinds of suffering.
Ed Edwards said:Ed's COMMING OF JESUS counter:
1. about 1BC - came from heaven to
born as a Babe in Bethelhem
2. about AD 0033 (some say AD0030) - came from Hell
the Victor over Death, the Grave, and Hell
3. unknown time 2008 or later: comes from Heaven to
get His own people (i.e. us) and time them to heaven (AKA: pretribulation Raptue2)
4. 7 years later - comes from Heaven with we Church Age saints
to whip up on the antichrist, Satan, and the their lackys.
And those may not be all, just the ones I know of offhand.
GE
No, Ed Edwards, your first three are the onlys. The Bible tells us so. John says antichrist is he who denies Jesus' "coming", "in the flesh", first, of his being born the Son of Man in the flesh; two, His 'coming', 'in the flesh' as you have said beautifully, "from Hell
the Victor over Death, the Grave, and Hell". Never mind the year!
and three, antichrist is he who denies Jesus Christ, "this same as you see Him departing ": Acts1, who denies this Jesus shall come again in the flesh of the very glorified body he came in from hell. Those three coming of the 'Coming God' are the Full Gospel of Jesus Christ. Who adds to the Word of God, the plagues of judgment day shall be added.
BobRyan the Seventh Day Adventist versus EdEdwards the rapturist wins the '70-week' marathon by miles! The 70 weeks are one unbroken stretch of weeks. Ful stop. Great Atonement Day of Acts 13 location Pisidia in Antioch is cut-off date over the nation of the Jews. Modern Israel is from firt to finish the works of Christian zealots not knowing what they were doing.
hillclimber1 said:Ascend with the shout to meet HIM in the air.
He shall set foot on the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem.
Two different incidents.
GE
Ja, and He had set foot on the Mount of Olives and the mount split in two as there was a great earthquake and the angel tossed uphill and away from the opening the stone and sat upon it, heavenly witness of Christ Vanquisher of death, sin and grave. The force of gravity from every direction overcome 'heaven' on and from every side! Both Father and Son ascend with the shout of Victory to meet in the air in Triumph. Where happened that? "On earth as it is in heaven Thy Will Be Done"!